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GOT TAMMIT FILA!

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I follow the sport nearly every day and have been for years and I can't understand all of the rules. IT'S F'ING RIDICULOUS.

 

Just stop. Why in the hell are they trying to make the rules so difficult to understand?

 

My rules that I could explain to anyone...quickly:

 

Push out = 1 pt

TD (from shot, front head, go behind, counter offense, whatever!) = 2 pt

TD to back = 3 pt

Turn = 2 pt

 

2-3 minute periods with 3 minute periods added for OT, first score wins. Tech is 10 points.

 

All the other crap (2 three point moves will end a match, "pass behind" being only 1 point, hand to hand turns being 1 etc) is OUT. Too confusing for fans and athletes.

I plead the fith

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JasonBryant wrote,

"I've NEVER seen time put back on the clock at an international event. Even when it's clear it should have, I have never seen the clock adjusted to a correct time."

 

In order to protect the wrestler from ill-advised decisions by a coach and also to prevent coaches from using the challenge as a stalling tactic; the referees stop the match only once any action stops. For example, if "A" was awarded 1 pt for a 'pass-behind' in what his coach deemed was a 2pt TD; and hence threw the sponge while his wrestler "A" was in the midst of executing a gut-wrench, the referees should allow the action to continue. Wrestler "A" then reels off a series of 2- 2pt gut-wrenches. Wrestler "A" then agrees to the challenge. If the challenge is upheld; 1 pt is added to "A's" score, the sponge returned to the A's corner and no time readjustment required. Likewise, if "A" had "B" on her shoulders w/ the arm locked ready to throw a 5 pt 'Grand Amplitude' and "B's" coach throws the sponge because she thought A" poked her wrestler in the eye, the referee should not stop the match until after "A" has had a chance to complete the hold--which she does. After review it's confirmed 'A' did poke "B" in the eye. The points are removed, the sponge returned and time re-set.

49northwrestling's Chun/Kaladzinkaya is an example--a challenge doesn't require scoring. [it should be noted the U.S. coach threw the sponge after time had expired in this match and the score was correct on the scoreboard. Hence the challenge--by the rules--should've been denied, but was granted in order to give the wrestler her due time to decide who the best was, not the referee.]

 

rossel3 wrote,

"One of the more annoying features of international wrestling is the "challenge." Not as bad as the clinch (thankfully gone), but still a buzzkill.

 

With a challenge, the match gets stopped, sometimes for 5 minutes, while technical minutia are debated. The fans are bored by it. The wrestlers are pacing, catching their breath. The end result is often confusing. And it happens ALL TOO FREQUENTLY. In short, crap like that just kills the excitement."

 

Timely, today's WSJ has an article: "It's Not Baseball If you can't Hate the Umpire" [see attached] which has fans and managers calling for a wrestling like challenge system "to confirm or overturn close calls."

Cumulative score has, as expected by the rules makers, lessened the # of challenges significantly.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 61210.html

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LkwdSteve wrote,

"Absolutely correct! The language had been written. I can only imagine something more pressing in the countdown to Argentina. Triage, I suspect!"

 

In the major sports any rules changes (proposed or implemented) are scrutinized by the media, print and TV.

 

If there are changes in SCORING proposed, forget about it. Hours and hours of discussion will be forthcoming. Even the minor sports' changes are reported on. Except for wrestling. Clueing in wrestling fans, and the conduit to them, the media, is not even an afterthought it appears.

 

Wrestling fans want to be educated. Comprehensively."

 

Major sports are not facing a looming decision regarding its future in a matter of weeks. But the 1st "Athletes Questionnaire" was 1st posted on FILA's website roughly a yr ago. Each Federation was given a 'password' for each discipline and requested to submit a consensus set-of-rules. The working group met over last Thanksgiving weekend to hammer out the rules.

Following the IOC's decision and the subsequent removal of FILA's President in February, an opportunity to broaden the changes to reflect the removal of constraints placed by FILA's previous leader was opened. The rules makers seized the opportunity to re-solicit the ideas of the worldwide wrestling community. As these new rules are put to practice adjustments are being made. Hopefully following Budapest the final touches can be put in place for the remainder of the quadrennial.

I understand the personal @ FILA's hdqtrs priority of ensuring the wrestlers whose native language is Farsi, Azeri, Turkish, Georgian, Japanese, Bulgarian or Russian understand the adjustments before the wrestling fans. Don't you think if the National Federations felt it necessary to inform the fan base, they'd have better access?

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Don Mog,

 

Enlighten me, because everything I've read from every news source out there is that we were dropped and now have a chance to get back in. It wasn't merely a suggestion. It was voted upon and finalized. As of now wrestling is out in 2020. We are trying to get back in. Show me otherwise.

 

The Executive Board of the IOC has "recommended" 25 core sports (wrestling not being one of them). In September, the full IOC can approve or reject this recommendation. If approved, then they will vote on one additional sport (wrestling, squash, or base/softball).

 

Or so that's my understanding. I think the full IOC will reject the original recommendation.

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Don Mog wrote,

"Enlighten me, because everything I've read from every news source out there is that we were dropped and now have a chance to get back in. It wasn't merely a suggestion. It was voted upon and finalized. As of now wrestling is out in 2020. We are trying to get back in. Show me otherwise."

 

This past February the IOC Executive Brd made the decision to cut the 26 core sports to 25 in the Oly. games starting in 2020. The IOC General Assembly in Buenos Aires this September must ratify the recommended 25 core sports, wrestling is not among the 25, but until ratified wrestling is still a core sport. If the Gen Assembly fails to ratify the 25; Wrestling remains a core sport in the Oly Games.

At the same session, the IOC will fill one remaining sport in the 28 spots for 2020 and 2024. [Golf and Rugby 4 yr ago were voted to fill the 26 & 27 spots for 2016 & 2020].

In St Petersburg RUS this past May, the same IOC Exec Brd narrowed to 3 from 7, the sports eligible to fill this spot. The 3 are Wrestling, Squash and softball/baseball combo. Wrestling was voted in the 1st rd, squash & S/B were in subsequent voting.

If the Gen Assembly ratifies the 25 core sports, then it will choose 1 among Wrest., squash, s/b to be included in 2020 & 2024.

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I understand the personal @ FILA's hdqtrs priority of ensuring the wrestlers whose native language is Farsi, Azeri, Turkish, Georgian, Japanese, Bulgarian or Russian understand the adjustments before the wrestling fans. Don't you think if the National Federations felt it necessary to inform the fan base, they'd have better access?

 

Why doesn't FILA just publish updated rules, with corrections of the original errors?

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I follow the sport nearly every day and have been for years and I can't understand all of the rules. IT'S F'ING RIDICULOUS.

 

Just stop. Why in the hell are they trying to make the rules so difficult to understand?

 

My rules that I could explain to anyone...quickly:

 

Push out = 1 pt

TD (from shot, front head, go behind, counter offense, whatever!) = 2 pt

TD to back = 3 pt

Turn = 2 pt

 

2-3 minute periods with 3 minute periods added for OT, first score wins. Tech is 10 points.

 

All the other crap (2 three point moves will end a match, "pass behind" being only 1 point, hand to hand turns being 1 etc) is OUT. Too confusing for fans and athletes.

 

Great post, you, jstock, and a couple other posters have the best fix. I would amend one other current scoring flaw-with 2 pt TDs, increase the tech-fall to at least 10, preferably 12 pts. We saw several examples of kids falling 8/9 points behind in Fargo only to win by Tech-fall (Pico down 8-0; ends up pinning or teching all opponents)

 

"Think keep it simple"- Stan, in your first post on this topic you used these exact words. AP's suggestions do just that. IMO I believe you are blinded by the thought of rewarding the offensive wrestler, and personally I do believe my football analogy is spot on. Even if you feel you are right, listen to the majority of the posters (I believe we represent the majority of most Americans); we all love this great sport and want it back in the Olympics. Remember the immediate reaction to the new rules when they first came out; everyone felt we were freed of the progressive stupidity the old FILA regime created. The new interpretations are riling our past conditioned perceptions of FILA. You can be so influential, listen to what people are saying with a open mind. I do understand your pass-around explanation, but it leads to unwanted subjectivity. I could go on and on, but really look at AP's idea without being defensive; it just makes sense"Think keep it simple".

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Hypothetical(or maybe not scenario)

 

JB vs. Tirapell in the World of the World Championships

 

JB takes a shot and Tirapell stops the shot successfully and thus locks up a front headlock. JB being a slick wrestler escapes the front headlock and comes out on top. Is this 1 or 2 points under the current FILA rules?

If Tirapell had three or more points of support on the ground before JB initiated his scoring action, and stayed on the ground throughout JB's scoring action, it's 1. Otherwise, it's 2.

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And this match embodies so much of what is wrong with FILA:

 

http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.aspx?C ... 17104&CL=1

 

Just jump to 5:00 to watch the carnage begin with a really strange call. I can see 1 either way, but 2 for Japan? Please explain. Then a challenge, where Turkey loses another point. Then ugliness ensues.

 

We just have extremely poor leadership, potentially the worst in all of sports. And I may have been born yesterday, but I have it on very good authority that there is no Rules Committee.

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This past February the IOC Executive Brd made the decision to cut the 26 core sports to 25 in the Oly. games starting in 2020. The IOC General Assembly in Buenos Aires this September must ratify the recommended 25 core sports, wrestling is not among the 25, but until ratified wrestling is still a core sport. If the Gen Assembly fails to ratify the 25; Wrestling remains a core sport in the Oly Games.

At the same session, the IOC will fill one remaining sport in the 28 spots for 2020 and 2024. [Golf and Rugby 4 yr ago were voted to fill the 26 & 27 spots for 2016 & 2020].

In St Petersburg RUS this past May, the same IOC Exec Brd narrowed to 3 from 7, the sports eligible to fill this spot. The 3 are Wrestling, Squash and softball/baseball combo. Wrestling was voted in the 1st rd, squash & S/B were in subsequent voting.

If the Gen Assembly ratifies the 25 core sports, then it will choose 1 among Wrest., squash, s/b to be included in 2020 & 2024.

 

this is a very clear explanation of the mechanics of the process, but as to whether or not wrestling IS or IS NOT in the 2020 Olympics is still basically a matter of semantics. it might be in, and it might not.

 

so lets look at the practical probabilities of wrestling being in or out in 2020.

 

Decision 1: ratify the exec decision to remove wrestling from the core sports? if no, wrestling is in. if yes, go to decision 2.

Decision 2: include wrestling in core 28 sports? if yes, wrestling is in. if no, wrestling is out.

 

now we just need to assign estimated probabilities to the 2 decisions. If say, D1 has a 90% chance of a yes, and D2 has a 50% chance of yes, then there is a 45% chance that wrestling will be in the 2020 games.

 

wrestling odds improve as the chance of a yes in D1 decreases and the yes in D2 increases.

 

if anyone wants to see my decision tree i doodled, let me know and i'll post it :)

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And this match embodies so much of what is wrong with FILA:

 

http://www.dartfish.tv/Presenter.aspx?C ... 17104&CL=1

 

Just jump to 5:00 to watch the carnage begin with a really strange call. I can see 1 either way, but 2 for Japan? Please explain. Then a challenge, where Turkey loses another point. Then ugliness ensues.

 

Here's what Stan said about the process:

 

"It appears most of you must have missed the addition to the challenge process. The 'Jury of Appeal' now must render a decision 1st in any challenge, not only if the refereeing body disagrees as it had been. "

 

So, what did the jury of appeal say? From the video, it appears that there was no jury of appeal, just the referees confirming their original (bizarre) decision.

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This past February the IOC Executive Brd made the decision to cut the 26 core sports to 25 in the Oly. games starting in 2020. The IOC General Assembly in Buenos Aires this September must ratify the recommended 25 core sports, wrestling is not among the 25, but until ratified wrestling is still a core sport. If the Gen Assembly fails to ratify the 25; Wrestling remains a core sport in the Oly Games.

At the same session, the IOC will fill one remaining sport in the 28 spots for 2020 and 2024. [Golf and Rugby 4 yr ago were voted to fill the 26 & 27 spots for 2016 & 2020].

In St Petersburg RUS this past May, the same IOC Exec Brd narrowed to 3 from 7, the sports eligible to fill this spot. The 3 are Wrestling, Squash and softball/baseball combo. Wrestling was voted in the 1st rd, squash & S/B were in subsequent voting.

If the Gen Assembly ratifies the 25 core sports, then it will choose 1 among Wrest., squash, s/b to be included in 2020 & 2024.

 

this is a very clear explanation of the mechanics of the process, but as to whether or not wrestling IS or IS NOT in the 2020 Olympics is still basically a matter of semantics. it might be in, and it might not.

 

so lets look at the practical probabilities of wrestling being in or out in 2020.

 

Decision 1: ratify the exec decision to remove wrestling from the core sports? if no, wrestling is in. if yes, go to decision 2.

Decision 2: include wrestling in core 28 sports? if yes, wrestling is in. if no, wrestling is out.

 

now we just need to assign estimated probabilities to the 2 decisions. If say, D1 has a 90% chance of a yes, and D2 has a 50% chance of yes, then there is a 45% chance that wrestling will be in the 2020 games.

 

wrestling odds improve as the chance of a yes in D1 decreases and the yes in D2 increases.

 

if anyone wants to see my decision tree i doodled, let me know and i'll post it :)

Has the general assembly ever failed to ratify the executive board's recommendation?

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I am discouraged by reading Stan's replies. I am starting to feel that if FILA blows it and wrestling is not in the 2020 Olympics, then I would love to see Stan and any other FILA board members surrender their Olympic medals in protest.

I wonder what Stan feels about term limits?

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Has the general assembly ever failed to ratify the executive board's recommendation?

 

i've read that it's a rubber stamp vote, so if that's the case, then wrestling is effectively out and it all comes down to the second vote on the final sport for the core 28.

 

i dont have any inside knowledge tho, so if anyone does i'll be happily corrected. one possibility i could imagine is that everyone agrees that they'll vote wrestling back in on the second vote so they save some time and just not ratify the exec rec. but who knows with how shady and underhanded the IOC is.

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jstock wrote,

"I am discouraged by reading Stan's replies. I am starting to feel that if FILA blows it and wrestling is not in the 2020 Olympics, then I would love to see Stan and any other FILA board members surrender their Olympic medals in protest.

I wonder what Stan feels about term limits?"

 

I am a proponent of both term and age limits.

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jstock wrote,

"I am discouraged by reading Stan's replies. I am starting to feel that if FILA blows it and wrestling is not in the 2020 Olympics, then I would love to see Stan and any other FILA board members surrender their Olympic medals in protest.

I wonder what Stan feels about term limits?"

 

I am a proponent of both term and age limits.

 

Apparenlty not ethical standards and transparency in a governing body.

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Stan: Why are you not willing to say what the Gilman scoring situation should have been scored? Isn't it best for the athletes, coaches, and fans to know how a situation should be called? There will always be human error, but it seems that you can't decide how that scenario should have been scored according to the book.

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Don Mog,

 

Enlighten me, because everything I've read from every news source out there is that we were dropped and now have a chance to get back in. It wasn't merely a suggestion. It was voted upon and finalized. As of now wrestling is out in 2020. We are trying to get back in. Show me otherwise.

 

The Executive Board of the IOC has "recommended" 25 core sports (wrestling not being one of them). In September, the full IOC can approve or reject this recommendation. If approved, then they will vote on one additional sport (wrestling, squash, or base/softball).

 

Or so that's my understanding. I think the full IOC will reject the original recommendation.

CPOW is not fighting that recommendation. If it did, the current IOC president (who's name escapes me at the present time) gets to decide who the core sports are himself. As it was explained to us at the NWCA Convention keynote address, that IOC President would not be likely to include wrestling in the program, a classic case of a pyrrhic victory.

 

Regardless, as of right now, we're on the outside looking in. Time will tell in, oh, about two weeks.

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I follow the sport nearly every day and have been for years and I can't understand all of the rules. IT'S F'ING RIDICULOUS.

 

Just stop. Why in the hell are they trying to make the rules so difficult to understand?

 

My rules that I could explain to anyone...quickly:

 

Push out = 1 pt

TD (from shot, front head, go behind, counter offense, whatever!) = 2 pt

TD to back = 3 pt

Turn = 2 pt

 

2-3 minute periods with 3 minute periods added for OT, first score wins. Tech is 10 points.

 

All the other crap (2 three point moves will end a match, "pass behind" being only 1 point, hand to hand turns being 1 etc) is OUT. Too confusing for fans and athletes.

 

These are the rules that we need. Like Anklepicker said, everything else is crap.... The question is why does FILA prefer to make the rules so complicated, and have a number of calls need to go to the "review committe of appeals" or whatever it is called?

 

Here is the only answer I can think of: FILA prides itself on being a political organization, and not a sports governing body. Guys like Stan and his colleagues love their "committees" and the controversies that arise, because it gives them a purpose...What's the point of an extremely complicated FILA bureaucracy if not to interpret all the complicated rules and resolve the numerous protests that arise. How many other sports have a governing body that is so hated by its fans and athletes? That should say something right there in itself. This is the same organization that almost re-elected Martinetti after his resignation!!! It's a disgrace and always has been.

 

I'm still waiting on Stan to provide clarification on why the 7 point tech is better than the 10 (Have I missed this, or was it never posted?).

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sockobuw wrote,

"Stan: Why are you not willing to say what the Gilman scoring situation should have been scored? Isn't it best for the athletes, coaches, and fans to know how a situation should be called? There will always be human error, but it seems that you can't decide how that scenario should have been scored according to the book."

 

As in any sport--football, baseball etc--the viewing audience, coaches, and players disagree w/ calls made by the officials, as indicated in today's WSJ article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 61210.html

As I've said before: "I am often wrong, but never in doubt." So I have an opinion: "I have no doubt that the call should have been challenged." Remember I have the luxury of hindsight.

If the 'Jury of Appeal' overturns the 1 pt call, I'd pat myself on the back. If it rejected my appeal, I'd begin to look for where I made the mistake, so I didn't make the same mistake again. I am confident that in concert, the refereeing body and the "Jury of Appeal' overwhelmingly are correct. The only time I felt that collectively the viewing audience may have even approached this group was in Tbilisi. You didn't need the challenge in Tbilisi, the fans kept the referees on guard.

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I follow the sport nearly every day and have been for years and I can't understand all of the rules. IT'S F'ING RIDICULOUS.

 

Just stop. Why in the hell are they trying to make the rules so difficult to understand?

 

My rules that I could explain to anyone...quickly:

 

Push out = 1 pt

TD (from shot, front head, go behind, counter offense, whatever!) = 2 pt

TD to back = 3 pt

Turn = 2 pt

 

2-3 minute periods with 3 minute periods added for OT, first score wins. Tech is 10 points.

 

All the other crap (2 three point moves will end a match, "pass behind" being only 1 point, hand to hand turns being 1 etc) is OUT. Too confusing for fans and athletes.

 

These are the rules that we need. Like Anklepicker said, everything else is crap.... The question is why does FILA prefer to make the rules so complicated, and have a number of calls need to go to the "review committe of appeals" or whatever it is called?

 

Here is the only answer I can think of: FILA prides itself on being a political organization, and not a sports governing body. Guys like Stan and his colleagues love their "committees" and the controversies that arise, because it gives them a purpose...What's the point of an extremely complicated FILA bureaucracy if not to interpret all the complicated rules and resolve the numerous protests that arise. How many other sports have a governing body that is so hated by its fans and athletes? That should say something right there in itself. This is the same organization that almost re-elected Martinetti after his resignation!!! It's a disgrace and always has been.

 

I'm still waiting on Stan to provide clarification on why the 7 point tech is better than the 10 (Have I missed this, or was it never posted?).

Because they aren't concerned about the results. They are concerned with shortening the duration of many contests.

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