Why doesn't T9 already consider our wrestling two sports?

[HoundedHawk 83]

Is not an entity like the Big Ten already sanctioned/recognized by the NCAA? Therefore, don't they recognize the participation of these athletes in both duals, individual, and team championships. The Big Ten declares a dual champion, team champion, and even individual champions.

 

The NCAA surely admits that all these athletes are all training for and competing in this multi-facted aspect of our sport. Therefore, they are already in full participation of multiple sports per their definition, and should be counting extra in the proportionality numbers for compliance.

 

What I don't understand is how the current participation would be any more a reality if the NCAA handed out the team trophy at both the Dual and regular National Championships.

 

What a ridiculous position they hold.

 

The solution is to recognize the very unique nature of our sport, unlike any other, and count our athletes as single sport athletes in a single season despite having multiple ways to win a championship.

[Pinnum 836]

Basketball, Baseball, Soccer, Volleyball and other sports all have regular season champions (in our case duals) and conference tournament champions (in our case individual tournaments). Also, in all of these sports, conference champions for automatic qualifying conference go to nationals just by winning their conference while remaining slots are awarded by at-large selections.

 

I honestly don't see wrestling as being any different. We are one sport and I side with the NCAA's position on this.

[carp 58]

Why not confuse the issue with more illogical posts? Both of these posts introduce red herrings (perhaps deliberately) that are beside the point of much of the discussion that has occupied us recently.

 

HH: The case was made re. the recognition--by both the OCR and the NCAA--that cross country, indoor track and field, and outdoor T&F are three separate sports. While I will grant that the distinction between indoor and outdoor T&F is tenuous, the three have separate, non-overlapping seasons and an athlete can RS in one and compete in the other in the same school year. Wrestling is not like this, wnless we had a dual season separate from an individual season--a ridiculous notion.

 

Pinnum: If you don't recognise the difference between wrestling and Basketball, Baseball, Soccer, Volleyball, et al., you are just not paying attention. Explain what an individual basketball competition would look like. Horse? 21?

[HoundedHawk 83]

Why not confuse the issue with more illogical posts? Both of these posts introduce red herrings (perhaps deliberately) that are beside the point of much of the discussion that has occupied us recently.

First, I didn't deliberately introduce a red herring. Second, what would be the red herring in my post? I'm not trying to get anything off point here. My point is important. If the NCAA doesn't recognize us our two sports now, then why in the world would they because they hand out a trophy that is already being handed out? This is particularly relevant concerning the Big Ten. They sanction the Big Ten, and they already award both Dual and regular team championships. By what standard would our athletes now become a two sport individual?

 

HH: The case was made re. the recognition--by both the OCR and the NCAA--that cross country, indoor track and field, and outdoor T&F are three separate sports. While I will grant that the distinction between indoor and outdoor T&F is tenuous, the three have separate, non-overlapping seasons and an athlete can RS in one and compete in the other in the same school year. Wrestling is not like this, wnless we had a dual season separate from an individual season--a ridiculous notion.

I completely agree. Wrestling is truly unique. It is the same teams, with the same indidividuals, during the same season, with simply different awards. It's asinine to consider these men two sport athletes if the NCAA hands the trophy out versus the NWCA.

[HoundedHawk 83]

Basketball, Baseball, Soccer, Volleyball and other sports all have regular season champions (in our case duals) and conference tournament champions (in our case individual tournaments). Also, in all of these sports, conference champions for automatic qualifying conference go to nationals just by winning their conference while remaining slots are awarded by at-large selections.

 

I honestly don't see wrestling as being any different. We are one sport and I side with the NCAA's position on this.

Then I don't see how you would side with the NCAA if they wanted us to turn into two sports by merely handing out a trophy we already compete for under the NWCA. Regardless of who is handing out the trophy, the sport exists by the fact wrestlers are training and competing for it. To not recognize it now, but to recognize it if they handed out the trophy is inconsistent.

[Pinnum 836]

Basketball, Baseball, Soccer, Volleyball and other sports all have regular season champions (in our case duals) and conference tournament champions (in our case individual tournaments). Also, in all of these sports, conference champions for automatic qualifying conference go to nationals just by winning their conference while remaining slots are awarded by at-large selections.

 

I honestly don't see wrestling as being any different. We are one sport and I side with the NCAA's position on this.

Then I don't see how you would side with the NCAA if they wanted us to turn into two sports by merely handing out a trophy we already compete for under the NWCA. Regardless of who is handing out the trophy, the sport exists by the fact wrestlers are training and competing for it. To not recognize it now, but to recognize it if they handed out the trophy is inconsistent.

 

 

 

One Team Champion per sport. It is simple.

 

If I am the NCAA I am not about to open up that can of worms. You guys are seeing it on one side, based simply on your own will to want to NCAA championships without changing anything. The other side is the financial backing of women's beach volleyball from ESPN (ratings are high with men watching womens volleyball). If wrestling gets two championships then ESPN (with their team of lawyers) will say that every volleyball program can compete in both the indoor volleyball season and the beach volleyball season without having to count as two athletes.

 

What about soccer? Will North Carolina, Cal Poly, UCLA, Akron, and Creighton, all lobby for a championship in Futsal and claim that it is the same sport but just different? After all, their spring and winter seasons often include futsal games.

[tirapell 34]

Be thankful they don't. Otherwise, 77 might be 33 or less.

 

1 season = 1 team championship. We need to fight battles that are winnable, if we hope for anything other than a good argument.

[HoundedHawk 83]

One Team Champion per sport. It is simple.

Accept we already have two team championships in our sport. It is unique, and it is inconsistent of the NCAA to not recognize it.

 

If I am the NCAA I am not about to open up that can of worms. You guys are seeing it on one side, based simply on your own will to want to NCAA championships without changing anything. The other side is the financial backing of women's beach volleyball from ESPN (ratings are high with men watching womens volleyball). If wrestling gets two championships then ESPN (with their team of lawyers) will say that every volleyball program can compete in both the indoor volleyball season and the beach volleyball season without having to count as two athletes.

 

What about soccer? Will North Carolina, Cal Poly, UCLA, Akron, and Creighton, all lobby for a championship in Futsal and claim that it is the same sport but just different? After all, their spring and winter seasons often include futsal games.

I do understand your main point concerningn the lawyers. That's probably why it will never happen. However, all these examples illustrate that nothing else is like wrestling. Indoor and outdoor volleyball are different in both number of players, seasons, uniforms, playingi surface, rules, etc. In wrestling it's the same season and each team can only send 10 wrestlers out on the same mat to wrestle exactly like they do in each individual match. The thing done different is how the points are totalled as the matches proceed.

 

I'll just reiterate yet again that it's inconsistent for the NCAA to say they would recognize two sports if they handed out the trophy, yet all the while it doesn't change the fact that the same exactly training and competition is already occurring.

[HoundedHawk 83]

dumbest thread ever

What's dumb about pointing out the inconsistencies of the NCAA concerning Title IX proportionality? It may be futile, but it's not dumb.

[Pinnum 836]

I will repeat: The NCAA has no power and makes no policies.

 

 

The NCAA member schools make the policies (their administrators sit on the committees and councils.) Title IX has nothing to do with the NCAA. The schools are accountable to the Dept of Education, in regard to Title IX compliance. You want the NCAA to crown two champions you will need to get schools convinced that the Dept of Education will not find them to be in violation.

 

Again, people are looking at things on their face and not basing their solutions off of the root cause. The NCAA must have all the power here since they give out the trophies. The NCAA just enforces policy written by the member schools and they base their policy off the various factions they are accountable to.

 

I think I need to be done with this thread. I agree; it has run it's course.

[HoundedHawk 83]

I will repeat: The NCAA has no power and makes no policies.

 

 

The NCAA member schools make the policies (their administrators sit on the committees and councils.) Title IX has nothing to do with the NCAA. The schools are accountable to the Dept of Education, in regard to Title IX compliance. You want the NCAA to crown two champions you will need to get schools convinced that the Dept of Education will not find them to be in violation.

There are some semantics in that statement. The NCAA has power because it's comprised of NCAA member schools. Plus, the NCAA has no power? Tell that to Penn State. The NCAA has the power of interpretation and enforcement. That's power.

 

Perhaps the better question is why isn't the Dept. of Education seeing wrestlers as those taking up two positions for proportionality since the NCAA and the NWCA award two different team championships?

[Pinnum 836]

I will repeat: The NCAA has no power and makes no policies.

 

 

The NCAA member schools make the policies (their administrators sit on the committees and councils.) Title IX has nothing to do with the NCAA. The schools are accountable to the Dept of Education, in regard to Title IX compliance. You want the NCAA to crown two champions you will need to get schools convinced that the Dept of Education will not find them to be in violation.

There are some semantics in that statement. The NCAA has power because it's comprised of NCAA member schools. Plus, the NCAA has no power? Tell that to Penn State. The NCAA has the power of interpretation and enforcement. That's power.

 

Perhaps the better question is why isn't the Dept. of Education seeing wrestlers as those taking up two positions for proportionality since the NCAA and the NWCA award two different team championships?

 

 

Penn State chose to accept the penalties and, I am under the impression from my information, that they actually negotiated their own terms. If Penn State didn't accept the terms then they would have gone before a peer review in which the other NCAA universities would have voted on action (with the right to remove PSU from the NCAA for anywhere from one year or completely, resulting in them having to reply with the standard three year acceptance process).

 

Here is a copy of the Consent Decree where PSU accepted the negotiated terms. http://www.ncaa.com/content/penn-state-conclusions

 

Yes, there were politics involved and there were many administrators that did not like the power Penn State held within the NCAA.

 

You can spin the 'they have no power but if power is given to them to monitor then they have power but what you fail to realize, is the same thing most people also don't realize, when you're upset with the NCAA you are actually upset with your own school and the other schools in your conference.

[Bucksman 0]

In some proposals where people are advocating the NCAA to conduct championship events to determine a dual meet team champion and a "traditional" (i.e. individual bracket tournament) team champion, they want one "season" for duals and then a second season for tournaments. Other posits have been different.

 

 

If the NCAA adds another championship tournament to the docket (and possibly a split-season structure), which is what this would do, there is the high likelihood that some would push for wrestling to be treated like indoor/outdoor track - two separate sports for "counting" purposes.

 

That outcome would obviously be disastrous for wrestling.

 

The present structure has the "traditional" tournament with the national duals being an invitational event (obviously one that is not 100% attended).

[HoundedHawk 83]

Penn State chose to accept the penalties and, I am under the impression from my information, that they actually negotiated their own terms. If Penn State didn't accept the terms then they would have gone before a peer review in which the other NCAA universities would have voted on action (with the right to remove PSU from the NCAA for anywhere from one year or completely, resulting in them having to reply with the standard three year acceptance process).

 

Pinnum, I appreciate your perspective and well mannered responses. But the bottom line is the NCAA has power because power has been granted to it from their collective schools that choose to be with it.

 

 

You can spin the 'they have no power but if power is given to them to monitor then they have power but what you fail to realize, is the same thing most people also don't realize, when you're upset with the NCAA you are actually upset with your own school and the other schools in your conference.

Not really, Pinnum. Respectfully, I think you're spinning. There are schools and conferences that have been in disagreement with the NCAA, not themselves. The NCAA has massive power, because massive power has been granted to them from the institutions that voluntarily signed up to be a part of the NCAA.

 

It's like saying our representative government really has no power, because it's us who put them in power. The bottom line is that they have power over us because we elected them to power and we voluntarily stay in the land they represent.

[Pinnum 836]

I would agree with that.

 

Though I think our government doesn't have any power we don't allow it to have, via our elected officials, of course.

 

But, yes, I understand your point. I just don't see the NCAA as the problem, I see the schools and their decision making as the problem.

[sbdude 16]

Man, if they started doubling up the wrestling count for T9 proportionality testing then you could probably say goodbye to a bunch more wrestling programs.

 

If a team had 35 wrestlers that counted twice in a school with 55/45 female/male ratio then you would need 85 women athletes to offset those 35 wrestlers (the way I understand the proportionality test to work). That would be the death of wrestling at many places I think.

 

It's already bad enough that if you have females on your wrestling team, they count as male athletes in the headcount. To double the team member count would be horrible.

[tirapell 34]

If the NCAA adds another championship tournament to the docket (and possibly a split-season structure), which is what this would do, there is the high likelihood that some would push for wrestling to be treated like indoor/outdoor track - two separate sports for "counting" purposes.

 

That outcome would obviously be disastrous for wrestling.

 

Ya think? :) Be careful what you wish for HH. You might just get it and give people more ammo to get rid of wrestling.

[HoundedHawk 83]

If the NCAA adds another championship tournament to the docket (and possibly a split-season structure), which is what this would do, there is the high likelihood that some would push for wrestling to be treated like indoor/outdoor track - two separate sports for "counting" purposes.

 

That outcome would obviously be disastrous for wrestling.

 

Ya think? :) Be careful what you wish for HH. You might just get it and give people more ammo to get rid of wrestling.

Oh, I'm not wishing for it wrestling brother. It's just my way of thinking through the prejudiced processes that attacks our great & worldest oldest sport.

 

I'm just surprised they don't already double our numbers based on the fact we do indeed already practice for, participate in, and declare another type of conference and national championship.

[HoundedHawk 83]

Basketball has a regular season conference champion and a conference tournament champion as well as a national champion in one year.

I do not know what your point is by stating that.

[HoundedHawk 83]

The point is many d1 sports are "multi-faceted" as you put it.

My definition of multi-faceted was in regards to diversity of types of champions at each level, not levels of champions. Of course, there can be, for example, a western conference champion, conference champion, regional champion, and national, like in basketball. We have differing types of team championships at both conference and national levels. We play two different types of "games," so to speak.

[SetonHallPirate 988]

Basketball has a regular season conference champion and a conference tournament champion as well as a national champion in one year.

 

Whatever you're contriving here is just a bunch of white noise.

 

However, I think the real issue is scheduling. If the team championship is ever determined by a dual format then we need to figure out how to get the team and individual championships as close together as possible, without putting the wrestlers at a serious risk of injury or keeping them out of class too much. I believe this is one of the reasons the proposal was sent back to the committee.

 

I believe SHP mentioned in a thread that gymnastic's team championship is determined before the individual championships, however this occurs in the same weekend... Not possible for our sport.

Tennis' team championships (both men and women) are determined before the individual championships as well.

[HoundedHawk 83]

The point is many d1 sports are "multi-faceted" as you put it.

My definition of multi-faceted was in regards to diversity of types of champions at each level, not levels of champions. Of course, there can be, for example, a western conference champion, conference champion, regional champion, and national, like in basketball. We have differing types of team championships at both conference and national levels. We play two different types of "games," so to speak.

 

 

We have duals and tournaments, but both within the same season. Track has 2 seasons, indoor and outdoor, and hence must be counted twice.

 

This is where I think you're mixed up and my point about scheduling comes into play. We need to schedule the 2 championships as closely as possible to maintain the single season format. When that happens your Title 9 scenario will not matter.

I'm not mixed up. My point has been they are already in the same season. And I don't think the NCAA is going to care if they are even a day apart. They will, unfortnately, consider it two sports.