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tirapell

For those that hate FILA...

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The rules are a freestyle base with the 'control' aspect of folkstyle (the aspect I believe we all enjoy). They are made for fans enjoyment and athletes understanding.

 

I love it, how you americans always try to change freestyle into folkstyle. Not gonna happen. :roll:

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Having a "third" set of wrestling rules will create more confusion for a common fan.

 

Having folkstyle rules with a step out and a riding clock would be enough. I think you are over complicating the simplification of the rules :D

 

Exactly.

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The 1 point escape was one of the most debated topics, but in the end, most agreed that it just couldn't work with escapes scoring points. If there is a viewpoint being missed, I'm all ears.

 

IMO, "ride or die" situations and the ultimate rideout are very exciting and tense situations. This is of course, the exact opposite of how I feel about watching Dake hammer Molinaro into the mat for 6+ minutes. Not that this is possible, but I'd like to see a way to keep the excitement of the bottom wrestler fighting tooth and nail to get out and win the match while leaving behind the tedium of the top wrestler forcing out-of-bounds restarts and slowing it all down with legs.

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I don't have anything to contribute other than to say thank you.

 

I think you guys are going to finally get the rules right (something the NCAA and FILA could never do).

 

I hope Agon is rewarded with a successful product. I have to admit I have no idea if wrestling will be able to capture fans. I think Agon, given the right stage, is our best shot to find out.

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That set of rules is great, especially for elite wrestlers. I love what this promoter is doing. It's fantastic.

 

I wonder if this will slowly morph into a submission grappling promotion. We've already had a few wrestling (non-submission grappling) promotions die out. (For example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Pro_Wrestling.)

 

If it turns into a submission grappling promotion, it could tap into the American market (folkstyle, freestyle), Brazilian market (BJJ, luta livre esportiva), Russian market (freestyle, sambo), Japanese market (freestyle, Judo, JJJ), etc. And it would be interesting to many MMA fans.

 

I hope good things happen here.

\

IMO one of the defining characteristics of wrestling is that you don't try to injure your opponent. I love submisson grappling but it isn't and shouldn't be wrestling IMO. Also, the combination of back points and submissions means that you basically need to give up either a pin (that's what the "guard"equates to in wrestlin) or a back mount every time you get taken down. I dont quite know how this would look on the mat (remember that in submission grappling the "guard" would be considered a pin in wrestling) but on the feet it would look boring as hell. Im sure not taking ANY chances when every TD against means defending a submission frm the back mount.

\

I am also curious what the "no potentially dangerous" rule means. Are turns considered too dangerous for FS and folkstyle, such as twisting the knee, permitted in AGON? If so this could be an impediment to top freestylers competing. If you are already competging in international freestyle, are you going to sign up for aa tournament that has much longer matches AND greater potential for injury (or defeat)?

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I appreciate the effort, but changing the rules again at all is a horrible idea. The new freestyle rules are ok. But if you did want to make an adjustment to appeal to Americans, it has to have escapes, reversals, referees position. To me these rules are the worst of both worlds. Creates more confusion but still eliminates what we like about folkstyle.

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I appreciate the effort, but changing the rules again at all is a horrible idea. The new freestyle rules are ok. But if you did want to make an adjustment to appeal to Americans, it has to have escapes, reversals, referees position. To me these rules are the worst of both worlds. Creates more confusion but still eliminates what we like about folkstyle.

 

All due respect since you replied:

 

#1 BASE freestyle rules without the modifiers are ok. With the modifiers they are bad, as usual. Big problem with the rules is that they are too subjective in determining who scored. They will never be popular with the mainstream because of this reason.

 

#2 If you could just articulate which aspects of folkstyle you particularly like that aren't included here, it might help. Escapes? Riding? Riding time points? Referee's position to get more escapes, riding, and riding time points? I'd just like to understand which elements of folkstyle people really like because those should definitely be included. What is included from folkstyle are control, takedowns, turns, falls, overtime, conditioning, and top/bottom wrestling, though it won't be the same as folkstyle for the reasons already given.

 

Listen, I absolutely love folkstyle. But the world doesn't love folkstyle and the casual fan doesn't love folkstyle. There are elements of folkstyle the we accept that just aren't very fan friendly or entertaining to the market we need to reach.

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The 1 point escape was one of the most debated topics, but in the end, most agreed that it just couldn't work with escapes scoring points. If there is a viewpoint being missed, I'm all ears.

 

IMO, "ride or die" situations and the ultimate rideout are very exciting and tense situations. This is of course, the exact opposite of how I feel about watching Dake hammer Molinaro into the mat for 6+ minutes. Not that this is possible, but I'd like to see a way to keep the excitement of the bottom wrestler fighting tooth and nail to get out and win the match while leaving behind the tedium of the top wrestler forcing out-of-bounds restarts and slowing it all down with legs.

 

Probably going to be a casualty of the rules. You can't include everything. Have to choose the best elements while maintaining simplicity.

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I appreciate the effort, but changing the rules again at all is a horrible idea. The new freestyle rules are ok. But if you did want to make an adjustment to appeal to Americans, it has to have escapes, reversals, referees position. To me these rules are the worst of both worlds. Creates more confusion but still eliminates what we like about folkstyle.

Think of it this way...high school, college, and professional football, basketball, baseball, etc. all have minor rules differences. This is the same sort of situation.

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People love to see throws. Some kind of bonus is needed to reward the risks of trying them.

 

This I really disagree with. I think this is where FILA has tried to go many times and failed miserably. It introduces so many more problems than it solves.

 

People also love spetactular slam dunks in basketball. Why aren't they worth 5 points? Or even 3 points?

 

Give wrestlers fair rules and let them decide which techniques to execute. The throw already has inherrent advantages and disadvantages. The advantages are throws are usually feet to back, resulting in the ability to pin or at least get 4-5 points. The disadvantages are they are more difficult to execute and the penalty for failure is usually higher.

 

So within the "throw", there is already a risk reward structure. You don't need to give additional points to create more incentive.

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Americans really like seeing action from bottom. We like standups, switches, rolls, etc. We want the bottom man to be doing something and to be rewarded for it.

 

More to the point, we like seeing moves (pinning combos) on top that are only possible if the bottom man is moving around. Think cradles, bar arms, spiral rides, crab rides...heck even your basic half and a wrist doesn't usually happen in freestyle or Greco.

 

Wrestling from referees position is a very important part of our american wrestling heritage. This is especially true in the MidWest and NorthEast where such a premium is put on top wrestling. (West coast seems more neutral oriented, possibly hence the rules?)

 

At various levels if wrestling there are always guys that are marginal on their feet, but kill it on the mat. By making mat wrestling, and especially referees position wrestling, less important you are going to alienate a lot of people.

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I appreciate the effort, but changing the rules again at all is a horrible idea. The new freestyle rules are ok. But if you did want to make an adjustment to appeal to Americans, it has to have escapes, reversals, referees position. To me these rules are the worst of both worlds. Creates more confusion but still eliminates what we like about folkstyle.

 

All due respect since you replied:

.

 

Listen, I absolutely love folkstyle. But the world doesn't love folkstyle and the casual fan doesn't love folkstyle. There are elements of folkstyle the we accept that just aren't very fan friendly or entertaining to the market we need to reach.

I disagree with the casual fan not liking folkstyle. In the United States, this just isn't true. Look at participation numbers, attendance numbers, whatever. Folkstyle is far more popular in the US among casual fans.

 

I am more and more thinking we need to put more resources into folkstyle (boys and girls) and say forget it with freestyle. There are sports that do well without being in the Olympics. But they have the same rules for8 year olds that they do in college.

 

Even in MMA the trend has changed, the top guys were elite folkstylers who did very limited freestyle after high school (Jones, Weidman, Hendricks, Cain, etc. )

 

If you want 2 sets of rules, I disagree. But if you are going to do that, you need referees position, you need escapes and reversals and you need the opportunity for traditional pinning combos. If not you are going to lose a lot of people.

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Americans really like seeing action from bottom. We like standups, switches, rolls, etc. We want the bottom man to be doing something and to be rewarded for it.

 

More to the point, we like seeing moves (pinning combos) on top that are only possible if the bottom man is moving around. Think cradles, bar arms, spiral rides, crab rides...heck even your basic half and a wrist doesn't usually happen in freestyle or Greco.

 

Wrestling from referees position is a very important part of our american wrestling heritage. This is especially true in the MidWest and NorthEast where such a premium is put on top wrestling. (West coast seems more neutral oriented, possibly hence the rules?)

 

At various levels if wrestling there are always guys that are marginal on their feet, but kill it on the mat. By making mat wrestling, and especially referees position wrestling, less important you are going to alienate a lot of people.

 

Good points. But like in anything, there are tradeoffs. In order to see mat wrestling, you have to be willing to endure long periods of time without scoring (riding). Most fans do not like this aspect of folkstyle wrestling.

 

In fact, if you just look at MMA, which is infinitely more popular than wrestling today, the part that fans hate the most is takedowns followed by no action on "the ground". They always want the referee to "stand them up", however MMA is structured so it takes a while before this happens.

 

Last point, in case I was unclear, this is NOT meant to immulate folkstyle wrestling. It is meant to create a set of rules that allow for the most entertainment value for fans while still being true to sport (fairness of competition and ultimate goal being winning). Folkstyle offers some very exciting aspects but also falls down in other areas. Freestyle offers some very exciting aspects, but has struggled with consistency and subjectivity. The best of both will require some sacrifices, but it's worth attempting IMO.

 

I don't really have any affiliation to AGON other than the rules, which to me are just about allowing wrestling to show the world how exciting a sport it can be.

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I am not sure that this will lead to more excitement, but I am sure it will lead to more disenfranchised fans. Part of what makes wrestling great is the tradition. And our American wrestling tradition is about taking top, bottom, neutral or deferring. It is about Granbys and spiral rides. It is about a lot of things that your rules eliminate. Ask 100 casual fans to name a wrestling move and you are going to get 3 answers: double, halfm stand-up. These rules eliminate or at least drastically reduce 2 of the 3.

 

If wrestling winds up being out of the Olympics, we need to hitch our cart to folkstyle. That is the only chance of staying in high schools and colleges. Any potential rule change should reflect what high schools and colleges do or would go for.

 

By the way, I would disagree that fans dislike mat wrestling. I guarantee if you did an analysis, the first period is scoreless more than any other in a folkstyle match.

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I appreciate the effort, but changing the rules again at all is a horrible idea. The new freestyle rules are ok. But if you did want to make an adjustment to appeal to Americans, it has to have escapes, reversals, referees position. To me these rules are the worst of both worlds. Creates more confusion but still eliminates what we like about folkstyle.

 

This kind of mentality is poison...un-American really.

 

Changing is how startup companies succeed: try new strategies, fail, adapt, and eventually find a winning formula. IMO Agon is taking large risks (something the establishement, the NCAA and FILA, can't do) with the hopes of taking wrestling places that is has never been. They may still fail in the end, but if they don't shake things up they don't even have a chance.

 

Ultimately you, as the customer, will determine Agon's strategy by responding to what puts a**es in seats. At least this is my expectation given the seasoned businessman that are backing this venture.

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I am not sure that this will lead to more excitement, but I am sure it will lead to more disenfranchised fans. Part of what makes wrestling great is the tradition. And our American wrestling tradition is about taking top, bottom, neutral or deferring. It is about Granbys and spiral rides. It is about a lot of things that your rules eliminate. Ask 100 casual fans to name a wrestling move and you are going to get 3 answers: double, halfm stand-up. These rules eliminate or at least drastically reduce 2 of the 3.

 

If wrestling winds up being out of the Olympics, we need to hitch our cart to folkstyle. That is the only chance of staying in high schools and colleges. Any potential rule change should reflect what high schools and colleges do or would go for.

 

By the way, I would disagree that fans dislike mat wrestling. I guarantee if you did an analysis, the first period is scoreless more than any other in a folkstyle match.

 

Folkstyle still exists. I will not cease to exist. I'll be coaching it again this year and I love it. I don't know why folkstyle wrestling fans would be "disenfranchised". Are NFL fans disenfranchised by the Arena League?

 

I appreciate the feedback. I just happen to disagree that folkstyle can hold up as a professional style. It has too many flaws from a business perspective, flaws that we die-hards overlook.

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I appreciate the effort, but changing the rules again at all is a horrible idea. The new freestyle rules are ok. But if you did want to make an adjustment to appeal to Americans, it has to have escapes, reversals, referees position. To me these rules are the worst of both worlds. Creates more confusion but still eliminates what we like about folkstyle.

 

This kind of mentality is poison...un-American really.

 

Changing is how startup companies succeed: try new strategies, fail, adapt, and eventually find a winning formula. IMO Agon is taking large risks (something the establishement, the NCAA and FILA, can't do) with the hopes of taking wrestling places that is has never been. They may still fail in the end, but if they don't shake things up they don't even have a chance.

 

Ultimately you, as the customer, will determine Agon's strategy by responding to what puts a**es in seats. At least this is my expectation given the seasoned businessman that are backing this venture.

 

This analogy doesn't work, because ultimately wrestling isn't supported by the consumer, it is supported by being in colleges and high schools. If we lose wrestling in high schools and college, that is the end of wrestling as we know it. IMO, all decisions should consider if this helps or hurts us in schools. Major rule changes hurt us.

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I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologize if my questions have been answered in some of the lengthy discussion preceding this post.

 

What is the goal of AGON? Do you want to eliminate FILA and change international wrestling altogether? Do you hope to have some influence with the NCAA and NHSCA to potentially amend some rules down the line? Does this intend to be something more like Real Pro Wrestling?

 

What is going to be accomplished in nine minutes that cannot be accomplished in six minutes? Is a nine minute match ultimately about who has the best lungs or who is the best wrestler come the eighth minute?

 

If I am the attacking wrestler, why would I be penalized by stepping out during my move while my opponent is attempting to flee/defend my hold? I could see this being an easy call with kids as the finishes are fairly quick and easy, but on the highest levels every guy is fighting for every inch and finishing a shot is nowhere near as simple or smooth.

 

What will be the size of the wrestling area? Are you going by High school, college or Iowa Hawkeye rules?

 

Why no reward for feet to danger maneuvers?

 

I like a lot of what is being proposed here, but I am also confused by some of it, too. That's coming from a guy who watches wrestling on a nearly daily basis.

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And FWIW, the part of MMA that people hate (related to mat wrestling) is a product of the bottom man not having to do anything.

 

That's one way to look at it I guess. I'd submit there might be slightly more to it :)

 

I'm glad you can apprecaite a good ride, because that makes 2 of us. Most fans however, cannot appreciate the subtleties of 1-2 minutes of riding with zero points being scored.

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And FWIW, the part of MMA that people hate (related to mat wrestling) is a product of the bottom man not having to do anything.

 

That's one way to look at it I guess. I'd submit there might be slightly more to it :)

 

I'm glad you can apprecaite a good ride, because that makes 2 of us. Most fans however, cannot appreciate the subtleties of 1-2 minutes of riding with zero points being scored.

 

Well, usually there is at least one point scored. Again I would offer that the first period is scoreless more often than the second.

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I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologize if my questions have been answered in some of the lengthy discussion preceding this post.

 

What is the goal of AGON? Do you want to eliminate FILA and change international wrestling altogether? Do you hope to have some influence with the NCAA and NHSCA to potentially amend some rules down the line? Does this intend to be something more like Real Pro Wrestling?

Professional wrestling outlet, as far as I understand. Also as a safety net for all the loss we've experienced at the World/Olympic level.

 

What is going to be accomplished in nine minutes that cannot be accomplished in six minutes? Is a nine minute match ultimately about who has the best lungs or who is the best wrestler come the eighth minute?

3 periods. 1 minute rest in between. More time to score. More opportunity for comebacks. What can be accomplished in 25 minute UFC fight that can't be accomplished in 15 minutes? More time to see the best go at each other.

 

If I am the attacking wrestler, why would I be penalized by stepping out during my move while my opponent is attempting to flee/defend my hold? I could see this being an easy call with kids as the finishes are fairly quick and easy, but on the highest levels every guy is fighting for every inch and finishing a shot is nowhere near as simple or smooth.

Answered in thread.

 

What will be the size of the wrestling area? Are you going by High school, college or Iowa Hawkeye rules?

Do not know the answer to that yet. Probably smaller rather than larger. Action needs to be intimate and fans need to be close.

 

Why no reward for feet to danger maneuvers?

Answered above a few posts and in a few other places on thread.

 

I like a lot of what is being proposed here, but I am also confused by some of it, too. That's coming from a guy who watches wrestling on a nearly daily basis.

If you read the thread, there are a lot of good questions and discussion points.

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Sorry for rehashing the Escape, but could you potentially (and I can't even believe I'm going to say this) INCREASE the points for an Escape to produce more mat wrestling action? What I am getting at is this - if an escape is worth 2 points, then as the person on bottom, I'm working like crazy to get out of there. On top, I have to make a serious judgment as to whether I should ride for a turn or let you up because there would then be no takedown / let up game being played.

 

Likewise, to then encourage more action from neutral, you could say all throws are worth 3 points, whereas regular takedowns will only be worth 2 points.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Great concept and thanks for being so transparent and inclusive in rule creation!

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Adam,

 

Thanks for your reply. Your time is appreciated.

 

That said, what is your involvement in AGON?

 

Is there a development department that intends to seek out private funding to make this "professional"?

 

"A safety net for all the loss we've experienced on the World/Olympic level" how? Are there other nations' governing bodies who are being pitched this idea and enthusiastically supporting the concept?

 

That said, how do the AGON folks intend to market this any better than what RPW tried to do with an entire season on television time no less?

 

How often does the organization plan on doing analysis of its events? I ask this because I am highly suspect that the fans are going to see an explosion of action during the seventh and eighth minutes of matches and most will be left checking their watches to see how much longer the match will last. My guess is that the third period, by and large, will net, on average, two points. Of course there will be exceptions, but analysis here will be crucial in determining if nine minutes was overshooting the mark and boring the $#!* out of the fans or if it was spot on and we're seeing a lot of Tommy Brands/Joey Gilbert-type affairs that have scoring from start to finish.

 

I've read about half the thread and there are some very good ideas going on here. I'll be keeping an eye on it as it goes along.

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