Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ching

Intl Wrestling Needs One Style

Recommended Posts

I firmly believe most of nagging problems FILA has can be solved by going to one style for both men and women. Make it whatever style you want. Turkish oil wrestling your gig? Fine.

 

Two styles are a luxury that FILA can't afford. If we hadn't squandered the last 15 year (or more), things may be different. 6,6,6 is a clumsy and unworkable solution.

 

Here is yet another alternative I propose.

 

    [*:2gr2stwy]Nine weights for Women and Men all the time.
    [*:2gr2stwy]One style is fought in the Olympics and has Worlds the other three years.
    [*:2gr2stwy]The other style has a World Tourney every four years, but no Olympics.

 

If FILA can rebuild wrestling to amazing new levels of exposure and excitement, then it would be in a position to move any damn style it wants into the Olympics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i agree with this. the way you get more than one style in the Olympics is build up the hype around multiple styles so that the Olympics WANTS multiple wrestling style.

 

we already blew the chance of having multiple styles. fencing figured it out, we didn't. time to pick one and then create excitement around the international tournaments so the IOC suggests we bring another style to the games. otherwise we're stuck with this 6 weight class nonsense, and potentially no greco anyway if it can't figure out how to get female participation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I propose: a new style known as "Olympic wrestling"

Standing rules: current fs rules. A pushout is 1 pt, a takedown is 2 (none of this pass by stuff), a back exposure is 2. Feet to back is four (exposure plus takedown). All double-exposure scrambles are scored 2-2, no worrying about who initiated what. No other way to score points needed. Passivity results in forced par terre.

Ground rules: once a takedown has been scored and control established (ie the guy doesn't get right back up) greco rules apply. No legs allowed, and this is strictly enforced.. Scoring is 1 pt for a lift, 2 pts for turn (hand to hand or not) and 4 pts for a throw with exposure.

Match length: 6 minutes, 10 pt tech, no other match ending moves except for a 1 second pin. A tied match results in sudden death OT with no clock, first point wins, passivities continue to be enforced. An optional addition when time is a concern is to have the OT in a smaller inner circle on the mat, so scoring is easier.

 

Thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I propose: a new style known as "Olympic wrestling"

 

Ground rules: once a takedown has been scored and control established (ie the guy doesn't get right back up) greco rules apply. No legs allowed, and this is strictly enforced.. Scoring is 1 pt for a lift, 2 pts for turn (hand to hand or not) and 4 pts for a throw with exposure.

 

Thoughts?

 

This is confusing and unnecessary. Are leg laces really such a problem that we should spend the effort explaining to non-wrestlers the difference between attacking the legs "in neutral" vs "in control?" It's hard enough to explain to beginners the nuances of locking hands in folkstyle. I can already hear myself explaining "it doesn't matter if you're on the mat or standing, what matters is 'control!'"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is yet another alternative I propose.

 

    [*:30yh17rj]Nine weights for Women and Men all the time.
    [*:30yh17rj]One style is fought in the Olympics and has Worlds the other three years.
    [*:30yh17rj]The other style has a World Tourney every four years, but no Olympics.

Unless the two styles alternate each Olympic style, the style that's not in the Olympics will eventually lose all of its funding in most countries.

 

Another alternative would be to have 9 weights for men and 9 for women in both Greco and freestyle. At the Olympics, 9 freestyle weights (for example, 5 men, 4 women) and 9 Greco weights (5 women, 4 men) would be competed -- the non-competing weights would get World championships that year. In the next Olympic cycle, the weights appearing in the Olympics would alternate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I propose: a new style known as "Olympic wrestling"

 

Ground rules: once a takedown has been scored and control established (ie the guy doesn't get right back up) greco rules apply. No legs allowed, and this is strictly enforced.. Scoring is 1 pt for a lift, 2 pts for turn (hand to hand or not) and 4 pts for a throw with exposure.

 

Thoughts?

 

This is confusing and unnecessary. Are leg laces really such a problem that we should spend the effort explaining to non-wrestlers the difference between attacking the legs "in neutral" vs "in control?" It's hard enough to explain to beginners the nuances of locking hands in folkstyle. I can already hear myself explaining "it doesn't matter if you're on the mat or standing, what matters is 'control!'"

He's trying to throw Greco a bone. I don't think they'd go for it, but I'd like to hear from Greco guys themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My proposal includes the most excitng aspect of greco (lifts and throws) while eliminating the part many people find boring (grinding it out on the feet). Yes, it adds a bit of confusion to the casual fan, but ground wrestling is confusing anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless the two styles alternate each Olympic style, the style that's not in the Olympics will eventually lose all of its funding in most countries.

 

I don't care what style or event it is, if the Olympics is artificially propping it up for interest, it will eventually die. I understand how important the Olympics is for wrestling, but we've got the get past the mind set that the best thing ABOUT wrestling is the Olympics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless the two styles alternate each Olympic style, the style that's not in the Olympics will eventually lose all of its funding in most countries.

 

I don't care what style or event it is, if the Olympics is artificially propping it up for interest, it will eventually die. I understand how important the Olympics is for wrestling, but we've got the get past the mind set that the best thing ABOUT wrestling is the Olympics.

I agree that wrestling needs to support itself financially in the long run. But it certainly doesn't now, and the reality is that the current power structure in international wrestling won't allow for cutting one style or the other. The style that is cut will fail to receive funding from Olympic sports programs. That matters in many countries right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like Greco but like FS way more. I am not in favor of adding womens weights at the expence of men. i just dont think the depth is there and women have not shown enough interest. Now the IOC wants to see Womens Greco. Women have shown that they do not want to wrestle Greco. I can see wrestling federations all over the world begging women to wrestle Greco and likely give them some incentive to do so. Not a bad option for a woman to get payment of some kind and a free ride to Olympics. Just like how my daughters college was begging her to cheer or row with no experience and she would get scholarship money. I don't care how politically incorrect that opinion is. I appreciate the work the FS women put in. I will watch but I would rather see our top FS men and add weights. I understand we have to add women to be politically correct and stay in the Olympics though, I get it...so be it. Therefore, I would sacrifice Greco and add more men's FS weights. Which would also add women's weights too with no need to talk of women's GR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I FULLY support women's wrestling. But supporting and understanding the differences between men & women in wrestling participation are both important. Here's what I dug up after the decision was made to go to 6-6-6.

 

I did some quick fact checking. I think for many who've lived wrestling for decades, this is where the angst stems. I don't know that many people that are truly against women being able to wrestle. But most I know are against it taking from the 93-98% majority, depending on what metric you look at.

 

New Olympic Weights

Men's Freesytle - 6 (33%)

Men's Greco - 6 (33%)

Women's Freestyle - 6 (33%)

 

California Wrestling Participation Numbers 2013

Boys - 27,634 (93%)

Girls - 2,099 (7%)

 

NFHS Wrestling Participation Numbers 2012

Boys - 272,149 (97%)

Girls - 8,235 (3%)

 

Estimated Wrestlers Worldwide

Men - 10,000,000 (98%)

Women - 200,000 (2%)

 

 

The other thing to consider is I hear a lot of talk about GROWTH in women's wrestling, which I think it has grown by %. But here are the actual numbers for California. Boys wrestling is still growing by more than girls wrestling on a #'s basis, which is almost impossible since girls wrestling is much newer to the scene.

 

California Wrestling Participation Numbers 2013

Boys from 2001 to 2013 - up 3,308 (from 24,326 to 27,634)

Girls from 2001 to 2013 - up 1,347 (from 752 to 2,099)

 

These don't tell the whole story, but I think it's important to know how many are involved in the sport at all levels to make informed comments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good stuff Tirapell, It's not that I don't support women's wrestling, I just want to see more weights for men. The numbers do not support the 6-6-6. Women have the opportunity and they are not taking advantage of it. USA wrestling should be marketing women's wrestling hard right now. The timing could not be better with the popularity of UFC/MMA Ultimate Fighter with Ronda Rousey and Miesha Tate headlining. Advertise on their backs and get women involved. They may not be wrestlers but their support and influence would be huge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I propose: a new style known as "Olympic wrestling"

Standing rules: current fs rules. A pushout is 1 pt, a takedown is 2 (none of this pass by stuff), a back exposure is 2. Feet to back is four (exposure plus takedown). All double-exposure scrambles are scored 2-2, no worrying about who initiated what. No other way to score points needed. Passivity results in forced par terre.

Ground rules: once a takedown has been scored and control established (ie the guy doesn't get right back up) greco rules apply. No legs allowed, and this is strictly enforced.. Scoring is 1 pt for a lift, 2 pts for turn (hand to hand or not) and 4 pts for a throw with exposure.

Match length: 6 minutes, 10 pt tech, no other match ending moves except for a 1 second pin. A tied match results in sudden death OT with no clock, first point wins, passivities continue to be enforced. An optional addition when time is a concern is to have the OT in a smaller inner circle on the mat, so scoring is easier.

 

Thoughts?

 

1. Greco is known for high throws, which are rare in FS. Therefore, using freestyle as the basis of standing rules would remove most suplaes and ... Well ... Throws from wrestling.

 

2. Greco has a very limited groundwork. Would you want to limit wrestlings rules even more? It is a combat sport, not a game.

 

3. You can touch legs when up, but not when down. A casual viewer would go "WhaaaAaat?"

 

4. Wrestling should give way to more moves, not lessen them. Many wrestling styles have already lost a lot of moves (judo, greco/freestyle, sambo) because of strange "safety" measures. In Greco, most problems are with joints in the arms. Guess which move brakes most joints on the ground in the long run?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to be a jerk Donmog, but how much greco do you watch? Most of greco's big moves happen from a lift-and-throw (ie on the ground). I know the US Greco trials were exciting, but generally speaking Greco on the feet is a grind and the ground is where matches are won and big points are scored. There are definitely problems with my proposal but I don't think #1 and 2 are valid. For #3, I agree, but it's a quick explanation (we can't touch legs on the ground because it makes it easier to throw people)-of-M3 rules. I'd argue this is a lot easier than explaining the details of exposure points, let alone the smorgasbord of confusing rules we have now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There used to be way more high amplitude throws in FS in the 70's to late 80's when the rules were best. Passivity was called for backing up and blocking hips. Hips had to be forward or present or passivity was called. Not sure why backing and blocking are not called passive now. The rule changes since the mid 80's have taken throwing out of FS. There is too much risk for the offensive guy who tries to throw a guy who is blocking and backing up. Throwing is almost a lost art. Learning to throw used to be a part of a kids FS training. How much time does anyone think J Burroughs has spent drilling throws ? Same with the majority of US wrestlers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not to be a jerk Donmog, but how much greco do you watch? Most of greco's big moves happen from a lift-and-throw (ie on the ground). I know the US Greco trials were exciting, but generally speaking Greco on the feet is a grind and the ground is where matches are won and big points are scored. There are definitely problems with my proposal but I don't think #1 and 2 are valid. For #3, I agree, but it's a quick explanation (we can't touch legs on the ground because it makes it easier to throw people)-of-M3 rules. I'd argue this is a lot easier than explaining the details of exposure points, let alone the smorgasbord of confusing rules we have now.

 

I'm a greco/freestyle wrestler from Europe myself. I have wrestled for 25 years.

 

It's the rules. They are stupid. They have destroyed greco standup. When one point is enough to make a match, why would do anything other than roll around on the ground. You win the match, that's it. Not much "combat" in the sport, but that's what these silly rules have done.

 

Maybe the changes to the rules will make greco as exciting as it used be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm what most people would consider a 'greco guy', and I think this is a very savvy compromise between the styles, which is absolutely necessary for all the reasons listed. At the elite levels, it is extremely difficult to score in neutral in Greco or in par-terre in freestyle because the arsenals of attacks are so well known and countered by amazing technicians and freakish athletes at those championships. This would serve to eliminate the less action-packed aspect of both styles imho. I'd love to see the HighC to gut to strait lift suplex combo attack executed in the Olympics! Granted, it is not perfect, and we would lose out on some of the intricate technically beautiful turns of freestyle ala Saitiev, Schultz, JSmith, etc...but the trade off would be less indefensible leg laces or worse, guys laying there until they get whistled to neutral.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm a greco/freestyle wrestler from Europe myself. I have wrestled for 25 years.

 

It's the rules. They are stupid. They have destroyed greco standup. When one point is enough to make a match, why would do anything other than roll around on the ground. You win the match, that's it. Not much "combat" in the sport, but that's what these silly rules have done.

 

Maybe the changes to the rules will make greco as exciting as it used be.

 

Good point. From what I've seen the new rules do help, though there are still guy who are willing to exhange caution points and wait for the top position. It's much better than during the 3 period era though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...