Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
tirapell

Ways to win a wrestling match

Recommended Posts

1. Pin

2. Most points

3. Get ahead by 7 points (TF)

4. Execute two 3 point moves AND the 2nd 3-point move must at least result in a tie match

5. Execute one 5 point move

6. Have the least number of cautions in a tie match

7. Have greatest number of high point value moves in a tie match

8. Have the last score in a tie match

 

I saw more confusion with criteria today than anything else. The wrestlers don't understand it. The coaches don't understand it. And most importantly, the fans don't understand it.

 

And Stan says we've "simplified" wrestling. It needs to be a LOT simpler.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree 100%, but at the same time, FILA COULD help themselves with simple ideas. Post those rules at every table and coaches corner on laminated clipboards in multiple languages. Hand copies to all media, make a rules page as page 1 for brackets...

I just hope The Pres. will continue to try and weed out the guys like Stan and continue to make positive changes. It seems like Lelovic is doing some good things so I am optomistic and trying to be patient.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we had several pages debating the pass behind rule and they changed it before worlds. I would like to think stan was on the side if all 2pt tds. maybe he helped influence the change. with enough fan input hopefully we can get these rough edges ironed out. the lopez semi was the worst one I saw. both wrestlers thought lopez was behind. how mad would he have been had he went for broke only to find out he was ahead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most popular sports have very few ways to win: fastest, highest, longest, most points, knockout, tapout, etc. And they are all VERY clear and minimally subjective.

 

As a big critic of FILA, I watched from 4:00-9:00am today to see what worked and what did not to be fair. We have a long ways to go with eliminating unncessary rules, stoppages, and generally making things more clear for in-house fans and a television audience. Freestyle wrestling is still not a very fan-friendly sport, in many ways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1. Pin

2. Most points

3. Get ahead by 7 points (TF)

4. Execute two 3 point moves AND the 2nd 3-point move must at least result in a tie match

5. Execute one 5 point move

6. Have the least number of cautions in a tie match

7. Have greatest number of high point value moves in a tie match

8. Have the last score in a tie match

 

I saw more confusion with criteria today than anything else. The wrestlers don't understand it. The coaches don't understand it. And most importantly, the fans don't understand it.

 

And Stan says we've "simplified" wrestling. It needs to be a LOT simpler.

 

The 66 kg final, the Armenian had a 2 pt takedown and Lopez had 2 caution points, but Armenia won, which means 6 and 7 are out of order (or they REALLY screwed up). AS you say, much too confusing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1. Pin

2. Most points

3. Get ahead by 7 points (TF)

4. Execute two 3 point moves AND the 2nd 3-point move must at least result in a tie match

5. Execute one 5 point move

6. Have the least number of cautions in a tie match

7. Have greatest number of high point value moves in a tie match

8. Have the last score in a tie match

 

I saw more confusion with criteria today than anything else. The wrestlers don't understand it. The coaches don't understand it. And most importantly, the fans don't understand it.

 

And Stan says we've "simplified" wrestling. It needs to be a LOT simpler.

 

The 66 kg final, the Armenian had a 2 pt takedown and Lopez had 2 caution points, but Armenia won, which means 6 and 7 are out of order (or they REALLY screwed up). AS you say, much too confusing.

 

Thanks for clarifying. I watched for 5 hours and have wrestled for 30 years, but I still couldn't figure out the order on #6-8.

 

I'm getting up at 4am to watch wrestling. Casual fans aren't going to put in 1/10th the effort to understand. Has to be a lot simpler and more intuitive.

 

And add injury/forfeit/disqualification to make 9 ways :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And I was stunned when Jake Herbert said (twice) that subjectivity in calls is fun for wrestling.

 

Do we really want the refs deciding the matches instead of the wrestlers? C'mon Jake!

 

(BTW, I enjoy Jake Herbert doing the color commentary - he's well informed and he's funny. Jason Bryant also did a nice professional job with the broadcast.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

either that or penalty points for stalling don't count as cautions... either way my head hurts trying to figure it out. I watched the finals with a BJJ and he seemed to enjoy the action but was confused by the criteria. "How do you break ties is BJJ?" "next point wins". Funny how simple that is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand why the order the points was scored matter so much in international wrestling. Rule number 4 seems especially confusing at least how it is written there. I haven't read the FILA rulebook. Probably my least favorite of the ways to win.

 

4. Execute two 3 point moves AND the 2nd 3-point move must at least result in a tie match

 

Suppose red is down 7-3 having already scored a three point move. Red hits a second three point move. Score is now 7-6, but red does not win and the match continues. Red scores a pushout to make it 7-7 - does red win now? Does the match continue?

 

A wrestler could conceivable hit 3 or 4 3-point moves and not win a match if his/her opponent keeps scoring multiple lesser value moves to stay ahead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This could be so simple.

 

Push out = 1 point

TD (of any kind) = 2 points

TD to back = 3 points

Turn = 2 points (no additional points for holding the guy because it's too confusing and freestyle isn't about control anyway.)

 

Tech is 10, OT adds additional 3 minute periods until someone scores.

 

The only way you end a match is via a tech or pin.

 

That's it. Give me any scenario and I will score it for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This could be so simple.

 

Push out = 1 point

TD (of any kind) = 2 points

TD to back = 3 points

Turn = 2 points (no additional points for holding the guy because it's too confusing and freestyle isn't about control anyway.)

 

Tech is 10, OT adds additional 3 minute periods until someone scores.

 

The only way you end a match is via a tech or pin.

 

That's it. Give me any scenario and I will score it for you.

 

I'll vote for this one right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Direct from the FILA rulebook:

"Article 31 Types of Victories

A bout may be won by:

- by "fall"

- by injury, withdrawal, default, disqualification of the opponent

- by technical superiority

- by points (winning by 1 point more at minimum after addition of the two periods)

If the wrestler executes a «grande amplitude» 5-point hold, the points are scored and the

match ends (only if after the points are included in his/her score the wrestler is winning).

If the wrestler executes two 3 point holds in the period, the points are scored and the match

ends (only if after the points are included in his/her score the wrestler is winning).

In case of tie by points, the winner will be declared by successively considering the amount of

cautions, the value of holds, and the last technical point(s) scored

[...]

A wrestler receiving 3 cautions on the total periods of a match is disqualified."

 

But some FILA referee told me that FILA changed the tie criteria and first criteria is value of holds and second the amount of cautions. But why don't they change the rulebook. It's crazy.

 

The Article 40 Value assigned to the Actions and Holds, is also too confusing. And they changed the points of the pass behind twice but the article is still the same.

 

Suppose red is down 7-3 having already scored a three point move. Red hits a second three point move. Score is now 7-6, but red does not win and the match continues. Red scores a pushout to make it 7-7 - does red win now? Does the match continue?

No and yes, it continues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I think we have a major problem with not only the current TF limit, but the TF in general. In a 1-day tournament environment (which is stupid beyond belief but that's a different argument), guys should be subject to the same standards of exertion.

 

Guys with good draws are TF'ing opponents in 1-2 minutes while guys with tough draws are grinding out 1-2 point wins in 6 minute battles. Then they meet 15-20 minutes later. This is completely unfair.

 

The only way to make it fair is to make guys wrestle 6 minutes or pin their opponent. Now, even the guy who gets the easy draw has to wrestle the full time allotment, giving his opponent a fair opportunity in the next bout. This whole 7pt TF thing and ending matches in 90 seconds is bad for the purity of the sport.

 

I called this during the broadcast today and JB even mentioned it. You see a lot of elite level guys losing due to luck of draw in the current format, because no amount of training can prepare a guy like Israpilov to wrestle 15 minutes after a 19-15 bout, when his opponent (Rahimi) got a TF in the 1st period. It's bad for the athletes and bad for competition.

 

Maybe it's a 15 point TF but I'd like to see no TF. I think you would have a more even playing field amongst athletes regardless of draw if you extended matches and gave a proper (at least 1 hour) rest period. One of the reason the NCAA's are so exciting is that you only have to wrestle ONE time per session, or once every 6-7 hours. Guys are fresh and the better wrestlers wins, not the guy who's the least fatigued from their previous match.

 

I really feel strongly about this and I think we're doing a disservice to our athletes, the fans, and the sport of wrestling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

reminds me of the 11 ways to reach first base safely. or is it 7 ways?

 

i'm actually ok with ending matches on criteria but only if you raise the TF limit. and i would prefer just giving out more points for the high amplitude throws or ippons, as opposed to straight up ending the match. but everything as is just with a higher TF limit would be a good start.

 

and all of it is better without the clinch and ball grab. man that is going to be looked back upon as a rather silly experiment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally, I think we have a major problem with not only the current TF limit, but the TF in general. In a 1-day tournament environment (which is stupid beyond belief but that's a different argument), guys should be subject to the same standards of exertion.

 

Guys with good draws are TF'ing opponents in 1-2 minutes while guys with tough draws are grinding out 1-2 point wins in 6 minute battles. Then they meet 15-20 minutes later. This is completely unfair.

 

The only way to make it fair is to make guys wrestle 6 minutes or pin their opponent. Now, even the guy who gets the easy draw has to wrestle the full time allotment, giving his opponent a fair opportunity in the next bout. This whole 7pt TF thing and ending matches in 90 seconds is bad for the purity of the sport.

 

I called this during the broadcast today and JB even mentioned it. You see a lot of elite level guys losing due to luck of draw in the current format, because no amount of training can prepare a guy like Israpilov to wrestle 15 minutes after a 19-15 bout, when his opponent (Rahimi) got a TF in the 1st period. It's bad for the athletes and bad for competition.

 

Maybe it's a 15 point TF but I'd like to see no TF. I think you would have a more even playing field amongst athletes regardless of draw if you extended matches and gave a proper (at least 1 hour) rest period. One of the reason the NCAA's are so exciting is that you only have to wrestle ONE time per session, or once every 6-7 hours. Guys are fresh and the better wrestlers wins, not the guy who's the least fatigued from their previous match.

 

I really feel strongly about this and I think we're doing a disservice to our athletes, the fans, and the sport of wrestling.

 

Convinced. Since this is on the ballot now, I'll update my vote for this one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By the way, it wasn't just Israpilov. But he is one of the top guys in the world and got TF'ed like a high school varisty wrestler by Rahimi. It was so grossly evident that his previous bout rendered him completely defenseless, it was a good one to illustrate the problem.

 

I also believe Taghavi's match with Metcalf was an overwhelming factor in him losing the next round to the Belrus wrestler. Taghavi is considerably better, but had very little gas left. The BLR wrestler got a quick TF in his 1st round.

 

HERE'S THE BIG PROBELM:

 

If we keep the current system, the only way to have enough energy bout to bout is to do AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE to win. So effectively, we're creating a system to encourage athletes to do the minimum.

 

It's a horribly slippery slope and the exact opposite of what we need to revitalize the sport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"If we keep the current system, the only way to have enough energy bout to bout is to do AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE to win. So effectively, we're creating a system to encourage athletes to do the minimum." I remember Saitiev mentioning this before.

 

I get the 1-day-tournament thing, but why does it need to be a half day? Just slow down. I think one reason fro the crappy brackets is that FILA wants the medals to get spread around. There is some validity to this- diverwsity of medals is one of the IOC's criteria- but wrestling also needs to market its stars. The best way to do this is to ensure that the best guys are wrestling when most people are watching (Semis and medal matches) and are at their best. Who wasn't excited for Gayzumov/Yazdani? That easily could have happened first round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The current system adds randomness, and the need to recover quickly. Quick tech falls favor explosive athletes. Just speculating, but the powers that be may prefer to see these types of matches -- quick tech falls, surprising results, with an increased chance that wrestlers from non-traditional powers win.

 

There is another element to this: running three weights a day ensures that all of the finals will not be in a television friendly package. I would like to see the worlds/Olympics stretched over three or four days, with all the finals back to back.

 

If all of the finals were back to back, in a two hour stretch, it would be easier to sell to broadcasters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Suppose red is down 7-3 having already scored a three point move. Red hits a second three point move. Score is now 7-6, but red does not win and the match continues. Red scores a pushout to make it 7-7 - does red win now? Does the match continue?

No and yes, it continues.

 

Well that might open the possibility of some truly ridiculous situations like one wrestler getting 3 three point moves but losing a tied match by technical superiority to a wrestler who only completed 2 three point moves.

 

The red is down 5-0 off a 3 point move a a turn. He throws his opponent for three then gives up a TD to make it 7-3 in favor of blue. Red scores another three to make it 6-7 then gives up a TD and a one point turn to make it 10-6. Red then scores a third three to make it 10-9 in favor of blue and completes two turn to give him his first lead of the match at 13-10. The wrestlers are stood back up and blue throws red for his second three point maneuver of the match to win 13-13.

 

I admit that kind of situation would occur rarely if ever. Still there is something inherently unfair if it can occur at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Suppose red is down 7-3 having already scored a three point move. Red hits a second three point move. Score is now 7-6, but red does not win and the match continues. Red scores a pushout to make it 7-7 - does red win now? Does the match continue?

No and yes, it continues.

 

Well that might open the possibility of some truly ridiculous situations like one wrestler getting 3 three point moves but losing a tied match by technical superiority to a wrestler who only completed 2 three point moves.

 

The red is down 5-0 off a 3 point move a a turn. He throws his opponent for three then gives up a TD to make it 7-3 in favor of blue. Red scores another three to make it 6-7 then gives up a TD and a one point turn to make it 10-6. Red then scores a third three to make it 10-9 in favor of blue and completes two turn to give him his first lead of the match at 13-10. The wrestlers are stood back up and blue throws red for his second three point maneuver of the match to win 13-13.

 

I admit that kind of situation would occur rarely if ever. Still there is something inherently unfair if it can occur at all.

Don't worry, this situation will only occur once -- they will change the rule after it happens. Especially if it happens in a match that important people are watching.

 

This situation reminds me a little of matches where the match winner by clinch had been outscored by his opponent over the course of the match. This was a problem, but otherwise the clinch was seen as okay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tirapell, I personally think the rules should work for all levels of the sport. If they want to make Cadet matches shorter I can live with that but if we don't have a tech at the lower levels it will get ugly. It will even get ugly at the senior level. Do we really want to embarrass people?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tirapell, I personally think the rules should work for all levels of the sport. If they want to make Cadet matches shorter I can live with that but if we don't have a tech at the lower levels it will get ugly. It will even get ugly at the senior level. Do we really want to embarrass people?

 

Don't embarrass the opponent, just pin him/her.

 

(AP, I like your original rules too.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...