Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
mspart

Questions for Stan Dziedzic

Recommended Posts

My questions are these:

 

At the World Championships, wrestlers had 15 minutes or so between matches (as has been reported to me). Does FILA feel this is adequate recovery time? What is the opinion of current experts in the field? What is the purpose of giving wrestlers at the World Championships such short recovery times? What would the schedule look like if the recovery were 45 minutes?

 

I am concerned that of two guys that have to wrestle, one had a tough match and 15 minutes to recover while the other had an easier time with a fall in the first 2 minutes and 30 minutes plus to recover. This does not seem like a fair shot for the first guy at all. Obviously no matter when they wrestle, the second guy will have more recovery time. 45 minutes is not much time but seems like a better situation for the wrestlers so that we can actually find outs who is best rather than who is better rested or who can recover more quickly.

 

I await your comments with anticipation.

 

Thank you,

 

mspart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What mspart stated is the tip of the iceberg. When I look at the aspects of the new rules that are unpopular in North America (criteria instead of OT, multiple match ending rules, unevenly distributed brackets, limited wrestlebacks, unfair draws as mentioned above) they all seem to have a common denominator. Namely, they are concession necessary to make the half day tournaments that FILA runs functional. My question is why the half day is necessary... surely brackets can run at least a full day? Stan mentioned that multiple day tournaments are a possibility moving forward. I don't even think that's necessary but surely there can be breaks between sessions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What mspart stated is the tip of the iceberg. When I look at the aspects of the new rules that are unpopular in North America (criteria instead of OT, multiple match ending rules, unevenly distributed brackets, limited wrestlebacks, unfair draws as mentioned above) they all seem to have a common denominator. Namely, they are concession necessary to make the half day tournaments that FILA runs functional. My question is why the half day is necessary... surely brackets can run at least a full day? Stan mentioned that multiple day tournaments are a possibility moving forward. I don't even think that's necessary but surely there can be breaks between sessions?

 

Very astute observation. All of the 'shortcuts' revolve around the limited wrestling time available per day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What mspart stated is the tip of the iceberg. When I look at the aspects of the new rules that are unpopular in North America (criteria instead of OT, multiple match ending rules, unevenly distributed brackets, limited wrestlebacks, unfair draws as mentioned above) they all seem to have a common denominator. Namely, they are concession necessary to make the half day tournaments that FILA runs functional. My question is why the half day is necessary... surely brackets can run at least a full day? Stan mentioned that multiple day tournaments are a possibility moving forward. I don't even think that's necessary but surely there can be breaks between sessions?

 

Very astute observation. All of the 'shortcuts' revolve around the limited wrestling time available per day.

At the Olympics, taekwondo and judo both run a weight class per day, with limited repechage. Boxing does not have a weight per day, so it should not be a necessary requirement. Boxers actually get a few days off between rounds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I don't have an issue with a weight per day. I have no issue with limited, or even eliminated, repechage IF the brackets are appropriately seeded. I do have an issue with rushing through so quickly that both the ruls and the matches themselves suffer as a result. The Olympics are a 20 man bracket, easy to complete in a full day without shortening matches or half killing the competitors (there have been several instances of wrestlers passing out after a match).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My questions are these:

 

At the World Championships, wrestlers had 15 minutes or so between matches (as has been reported to me). Does FILA feel this is adequate recovery time? What is the opinion of current experts in the field? What is the purpose of giving wrestlers at the World Championships such short recovery times? What would the schedule look like if the recovery were 45 minutes?

 

I am concerned that of two guys that have to wrestle, one had a tough match and 15 minutes to recover while the other had an easier time with a fall in the first 2 minutes and 30 minutes plus to recover. This does not seem like a fair shot for the first guy at all. Obviously no matter when they wrestle, the second guy will have more recovery time. 45 minutes is not much time but seems like a better situation for the wrestlers so that we can actually find outs who is best rather than who is better rested or who can recover more quickly.

 

I'm not Stan obviously, but my thoughts are these. I competed under these same rules a long time ago in judo. And I found that the format rewards the more dominant wrestler who quickly dispatches his foes and is therefore, fresher and better rested overall.

 

Conversely, the Rocky-type athlete who is just scraping by in each match is going to be at a serious disadvantage deeper in the bracket.

 

The one thing this doesn't account for is a Metcalf-Teghavi type draw, where you get two of the top guys in a championship type match in the first round. Then it's going to be downhill from there, and the better, more dominant wrestler might easily be knocked out of the tournament just by virtue of the draw.

 

But generally, as I said before, this format rewards dominant athletes who breeze through their brackets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

But generally, as I said before, this format rewards dominant athletes who breeze through their brackets.

This is basically rewarding a weaker draw and thus creating unusual results.

 

one of fila's points that they hung their hat on to get back into the games was medal distribution. why compromise the integrity of our sport to spread these medals? if we achieve true parity the medal counts will show it. right now the system is artificially inflating those numbers. it may have helped with the ioc presentation, but is it really worth it? balance the competitive field for all participants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

But generally, as I said before, this format rewards dominant athletes who breeze through their brackets.

This is basically rewarding a weaker draw and thus creating unusual results.

 

I take your point. But, fix the draw, and the format could work.

 

Which gets us to, how do you fix the draw? Are seeds based on that year's rankings a start?

 

BTW, the format didn't seem to faze Burroughs. Whereas it really impacted Dlagnev and Hump directly as they were exhausted in their last matches. And Metcalf indirectly, in that an exhausted Teghavi could not pull him through.

 

Conditioning was always supposed to be a US advantage. Not so much this time. Maybe that's no accident.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

But generally, as I said before, this format rewards dominant athletes who breeze through their brackets.

This is basically rewarding a weaker draw and thus creating unusual results.

 

one of fila's points that they hung their hat on to get back into the games was medal distribution. why compromise the integrity of our sport to spread these medals? if we achieve true parity the medal counts will show it. right now the system is artificially inflating those numbers. it may have helped with the ioc presentation, but is it really worth it? balance the competitive field for all participants.

 

 

This +1000. Always brought up by Stan as part of FILA's rationale prior to the Olympics fiasco. How well did it serve us then??????? Consistently, FILA has focused on all the wrong things in regards to wrestling.

 

If we were more focused on making our sport more accessible to the general public, our issues would go away. Geez, gymnastics is understandable enough to me through my limited TV viewership and I can't imagine that their scoring and competition rules are less complicated than wrestling's. Simple ways to do this:

 

1) Identify the top competitor's through seeding. This is MUCH more important IMO than medal distribution. And it's not because I'm interested in seeing the best athletes win. Identifying the favorites and the underdogs is vital in creating drama in competition.

 

2) Clearly announce/display our scoring. I've posted enough about this already. IMO the #1 problem in our sport. Right now we are an insider's game. Announce/display 2pts TD, 1 pt exposure, 3pt feet to back with control, 2 pt exposure no control. It doesn't matter if the viewer doesn't have expertise in the scoring (see gymnastics). It only matters that they are clear what has been awarded.

 

3) The Olympics is absolutely the best format to have a dual competition. I have no idea why we haven't tried to introduce this yet. A team competition (in one style) - especially considering who the traditional power teams are in freestyle - would create some compelling made for TV drama for the masses. And wrestling athletes IMO display the utmost in what should be the Olympic ideals - the respect for opponents despite sometimes brutal, physical competition, brotherhood among competitors across politics - the Olympics would be an ideal platform to exhibit this in a team format.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3) The Olympics is absolutely the best format to have a dual competition. I have no idea why we haven't tried to introduce this yet. A team competition (in one style) - especially considering who the traditional power teams are in freestyle - would create some compelling made for TV drama for the masses. And wrestling athletes IMO display the utmost in what should be the Olympic ideals - the respect for opponents despite sometimes brutal, physical competition, brotherhood among competitors across politics - the Olympics would be an ideal platform to exhibit this in a team format.

 

now there's an idea worth exploring. maybe a dual meet tournaments for mens FS and greco, and individual tournaments for women? and start scheduling individual mens world championships during olympic years.

 

it would get you to medal parity for men and women and keep both GR and FS. probably get more weight classes out of it too if you did the numbers right. participation numbers would still be skewed toward males tho.

 

obviously not perfect, but short of adding women's GR it looks pretty good to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Identify the top competitor's through seeding. This is MUCH more important IMO than medal distribution. And it's not because I'm interested in seeing the best athletes win. Identifying the favorites and the underdogs is vital in creating drama in competition.

Yes, absolutely.

 

2) Clearly announce/display our scoring. I've posted enough about this already. IMO the #1 problem in our sport. Right now we are an insider's game. Announce/display 2pts TD, 1 pt exposure, 3pt feet to back with control, 2 pt exposure no control. It doesn't matter if the viewer doesn't have expertise in the scoring (see gymnastics). It only matters that they are clear what has been awarded.

One issue that makes freestyle problematic is the necessity to confirm calls. If the refs controlled the scoring alone with no confirmation (no judge or chairman), and a jury could only be used on appeals, scoring could be posted much more easily.

 

3) The Olympics is absolutely the best format to have a dual competition. I have no idea why we haven't tried to introduce this yet. A team competition (in one style) - especially considering who the traditional power teams are in freestyle - would create some compelling made for TV drama for the masses. And wrestling athletes IMO display the utmost in what should be the Olympic ideals - the respect for opponents despite sometimes brutal, physical competition, brotherhood among competitors across politics - the Olympics would be an ideal platform to exhibit this in a team format.

 

This would be ideal -- and would attract more viewership, I think, if done properly. But I don't know how you get past the medal count limits. FILA should start this, having a dual world champion at the end of the individual championships -- which could replace, or at least augment, the World Cup. If it works for FILA, the Olympics might start to embrace it.

 

*Edit - formatting issue

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2) Clearly announce/display our scoring. I've posted enough about this already. IMO the #1 problem in our sport. Right now we are an insider's game. Announce/display 2pts TD, 1 pt exposure, 3pt feet to back with control, 2 pt exposure no control. It doesn't matter if the viewer doesn't have expertise in the scoring (see gymnastics). It only matters that they are clear what has been awarded.

One issue that makes freestyle problematic is the necessity to confirm calls. If the refs controlled the scoring alone with no confirmation (no judge or chairman), and a jury could only be used on appeals, scoring could be posted much more easily.

 

 

In regards to #2 - they were my exact thoughts, I just didn't want to clutter up my main thought and get people sidetracked on getting rid of the confirmation process. I had actually typed "get rid of the confirmation process. Video challenge and review by independent jury." Then I deleted it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In regards to #2 - they were my exact thoughts, I just didn't want to clutter up my main thought and get people sidetracked on getting rid of the confirmation process. I had actually typed "get rid of the confirmation process. Video challenge and review by independent jury." Then I deleted it.

 

Another way to do this is to score things immediately the way the ref scores them, then change the scoreboard if overturned by the chair and judge. That's more complicated, but it might be an easier sell.

 

Having the refs hands move and the score go up immediately is really important, I think -- it makes the sport more accessible for the uninitiated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In regards to #2 - they were my exact thoughts, I just didn't want to clutter up my main thought and get people sidetracked on getting rid of the confirmation process. I had actually typed "get rid of the confirmation process. Video challenge and review by independent jury." Then I deleted it.

 

Another way to do this is to score things immediately the way the ref scores them, then change the scoreboard if overturned by the chair and judge. That's more complicated, but it might be an easier sell.

 

Having the refs hands move and the score go up immediately is really important, I think -- it makes the sport more accessible for the uninitiated.

 

I would be OK with that if there was some kind of signal to stop the action (at next break, which in freestyle is never long) and relay the changes to the athletes/coaches/viewer through the referee. I really don't care if this involves an additional break from wrestling. There are so many opportunities for breaks now and you couple that with the fact that we have the opposite complaint with recovery time between matches that the conditioning argument against this has become a pure cluster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In regards to #2 - they were my exact thoughts, I just didn't want to clutter up my main thought and get people sidetracked on getting rid of the confirmation process. I had actually typed "get rid of the confirmation process. Video challenge and review by independent jury." Then I deleted it.

 

Another way to do this is to score things immediately the way the ref scores them, then change the scoreboard if overturned by the chair and judge. That's more complicated, but it might be an easier sell.

 

Having the refs hands move and the score go up immediately is really important, I think -- it makes the sport more accessible for the uninitiated.

Yup. I would also suggest that in all double exposure type situatios (both guys exposed, neither really in control) the points awarded are 2-2 and we move on. These multiple exposure type situations are the onles that lead to endless video reviews and major confusion and controversy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is basically rewarding a weaker draw and thus creating unusual results.

 

one of fila's points that they hung their hat on to get back into the games was medal distribution. why compromise the integrity of our sport to spread these medals? if we achieve true parity the medal counts will show it. right now the system is artificially inflating those numbers. it may have helped with the ioc presentation, but is it really worth it? balance the competitive field for all participants.

 

 

This +1000. Always brought up by Stan as part of FILA's rationale prior to the Olympics fiasco. How well did it serve us then??????? Consistently, FILA has focused on all the wrong things in regards to wrestling.

 

If we were more focused on making our sport more accessible to the general public, our issues would go away. Geez, gymnastics is understandable enough to me through my limited TV viewership and I can't imagine that their scoring and competition rules are less complicated than wrestling's. Simple ways to do this:

 

1) Identify the top competitor's through seeding. This is MUCH more important IMO than medal distribution. And it's not because I'm interested in seeing the best athletes win. Identifying the favorites and the underdogs is vital in creating drama in competition.

 

2) Clearly announce/display our scoring. I've posted enough about this already. IMO the #1 problem in our sport. Right now we are an insider's game. Announce/display 2pts TD, 1 pt exposure, 3pt feet to back with control, 2 pt exposure no control. It doesn't matter if the viewer doesn't have expertise in the scoring (see gymnastics). It only matters that they are clear what has been awarded.

 

3) The Olympics is absolutely the best format to have a dual competition. I have no idea why we haven't tried to introduce this yet. A team competition (in one style) - especially considering who the traditional power teams are in freestyle - would create some compelling made for TV drama for the masses. And wrestling athletes IMO display the utmost in what should be the Olympic ideals - the respect for opponents despite sometimes brutal, physical competition, brotherhood among competitors across politics - the Olympics would be an ideal platform to exhibit this in a team format.

 

 

 

I like these posts. Very refreshing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The entire concept of completing the bracket in half a day is ludicrous. Swimmers and runners don't complete the entire program in a day so why should wrestling. Any rest period less than an hour between matches is beyond asinine. I like other aspects of the most recent rule changes, but we still have a long way to go and I am running low on patience and interest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really solid logic and IMO, right on the money by rickybobby, quanon, 2td3nf, and many others. Like oldrules, it's gets tiring and uninspiring to watch when you can't figure out what's going on. And I wouldn't consider myself the average fan either, so many people have to be confused.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...