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mspart

Questions for Stan Dziedzic

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setonhallpirate wrote,

Why aren't Archery, Badminton, Basketball, Boxing, Canoeing, Cycling, Diving, Equestrian, Field Hockey, Football, Gymnastics, Handball, Rowing, Sailing, Synchronized Swimming, Table Tennis, Tennis, Volleyball, and Water Polo held to the same standard? Sometimes I feel like these excuses are made up just to provide a reason to oppose something when you have no other reason to oppose it, particularly when 2/3rds of the sports on the Olympic program aren't held to the standard you mention.

 

For the most part each is: Tennis staggers mixed dbls, men's dbls, women's dbls, women's finals and then men's finals?? In fact tie matches are limited in the preliminary rds. Track & Field 100 m dash, high jump, long jump, pole vault, 200m dash, marathon, shot put, hammer throw etc are staggered. Swimming the same--100m, 50m breaststroke, backstroke, relays etc are staggered. Gymnastics--men's parallel bars, rings, all-around, floor exercise are held on different days. Boxing--because of its unique concussion problem require more recuperation--it was the 1st to have 2 bronze medals because the losers of the semis could not always fight again. For the single bracket team events of course it is impossible to organize in one day when there is only one medal, 16 teams and the events takes several hours.

As a member of ATL's risk-mgnt committee and venue advisor; I can say the organizers prefer as many finals each day as possible and generally organizes to maximize the #. In ATL, if my memory serves me correct, the ticket for the wrestling finals--the night Engel wrestled his famous referee's decision victory--traded @ the highest multiple by the scalpers of any ticket in the entire '96 Olympic Games. Yet the preliminary sessions were often not full. In London wrestling tickets everyday were extremely difficult to acquire and each finals sold out.

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Off the top of my head, I can think of a number of ways to get around this problem.

 

A. If there are brackets of different sizes, the smaller brackets could finish their competition earlier, so that you have championships beginning on day 2, then three or four day brackets for the rest of the weights.

 

B. Rotate brackets, so that one style, or one randomly chosen weight class, competes in a two day format, while the rest of the brackets compete over the course of three or four days.

 

C. Eliminate overtime, but change the criteria to whoever scores last wins, with no other tiebreaker. Current passivity procedures preclude scoreless matches, so 0-0 would not be an issue. This could be done regardless of the length of the tourneys, but it eliminates the unfair rest issue, especially if combined with getting rid of technical falls. Personally, I don't feel strongly about overtime or technical falls one way or the other, but I do think the current tiebreaker is unnecessarily confusing, and has little upside.

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quanon wrote,

It's easy to support both overtime and extended rest periods if the tournament is spread out over multiple days. The NCAA tournament does this quite well.

So far, I have only seen official discussion of two options: a one day tourney per weight class, or a two day tourney per weight class. Since the entire tournament actually takes a week, wouldn't it make more sense to stretch the rounds out over multiple days (that is, more than two)? This would ensure that the athletes were well rested and performing their best when they compete.

 

1 or 2 days are the only option because of the Olympic program requirement to have finals everyday; or at the least every day but the 1st day?

Prior to that change, Olympic wrestling was competed in a 3 day format (weigh-in everyday--flat weight 2 hrs before competition). In Montreal, the final day (medal rds) were filled to capacity @ the main arena. The 1st 2 days, on the otherhand, were void of spectators @ the local high school gym--even though several of the gold and silver medalist wrestled in the early rds (rd-robin, no seeding).

 

If you can get out of the requirement to have finals on the first day, you should be able to have one division have a two-day format, and the others three. If not, you could have one division wrestle a one-day format, and the others three.

 

olympic-schedule.png

 

"Load", here, is a proportional index of how many matches are wrestled that day. It's only an approximation.

 

If you had to have finals the first day, you could move one division down to a one-day format, but the others could still have three. That would actually make scheduling easier, since you have a higher granularity on that division.

 

While I hate to screw Greco, it's the logical choice to get the shorter tournament. My understanding is that the IOC wants more difference between freestyle and Greco, and more parity between men and women; giving them the shorter format accomplishes both. On the bright side, two days is still better than what they have now, and one is no worse.

 

Looking at the last Olympic schedule (here), it's interesting that while most combat sports have medal rounds each day, boxing does not; nor does table tennis, which is one-on-one. Selling the IOC on a non-finals day (or two) would have great value, and realistically, what are the odds we wouldn't fill the seats at this point?

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If you can get out of the requirement to have finals on the first day, you should be able to have one division have a two-day format, and the others three. If not, you could have one division wrestle a one-day format, and the others three.

 

 

 

"Load", here, is a proportional index of how many matches are wrestled that day. It's only an approximation.

 

If you had to have finals the first day, you could move one division down to a one-day format, but the others could still have three. That would actually make scheduling easier, since you have a higher granularity on that division.

 

While I hate to screw Greco, it's the logical choice to get the shorter tournament. My understanding is that the IOC wants more difference between freestyle and Greco, and more parity between men and women; giving them the shorter format accomplishes both. On the bright side, two days is still better than what they have now, and one is no worse.

 

Looking at the last Olympic schedule (here), it's interesting that while most combat sports have medal rounds each day, boxing does not; nor does table tennis, which is one-on-one. Selling the IOC on a non-finals day (or two) would have great value, and realistically, what are the odds we wouldn't fill the seats at this point?

 

Thanks...a real attempt to find a plausible solution. Problem [probably insurmountable]: Convincing the world to develop a training regime for all of the wrestlers in the world to optimize performance in a 3 day format, except 1 weight class. Especially if the weight class is not certain at least 3 years in advance?

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Thanks...a real attempt to find a plausible solution. Problem [probably insurmountable]: Convincing the world to develop a training regime for all of the wrestlers in the world to optimize performance in a 3 day format, except 1 weight class. Especially if the weight class is not certain at least 3 years in advance?

 

If I'm understanding what Ray has proposed, all freestyle weights would compete over 3 days, and all Greco weights would compete over two days.

 

Only if each day were required to have finals matches would any weight class have to peak for a one day tournament. But apparently the first day doesn't have that requirement -- and it should sell out no matter what.

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You can't support both more rest and OT. For example, @ the US team trials this year there was an OT bout (Dake-Howe) that lasted 6 minutes--in effect 2 full matches w/ no rest. In addition, both wrestlers were deprived of valuable rest time before the next bout [both were teched in less than 2 minutes??]. If the semi-finals and/or repechage are set to start 1745h for instance and the finals are set for 1900h [^ 1h+ rest] and one match has an OT that last 12 running minutes; the end result would be: 1 wrestler in effect wrestles 3 bouts w/out any rest and then has to wrestle in the finals or for 3rd w/ as much as 30 minutes less rest than his/her opponent???? Stan, I do understand this problem. I guess my view is a compromise between giving the wrestlers the additional break time they need, and giving the fans the excitement of OT. Yes, the odd wrestler will be at a disadvantage because of a long OT, but at least the majority of wrestlers will be well rested (which is not the case now). I don't even think we need multiple day brackets, just have the tournament in an actual day (morning to evening) instead of several hours, and make the minimum break time a bit longer than i5 minutes- 25 to 30 min is probably enough. If OT really is an insurmountable obstacle, criteria should at least be simplified. Last point scored is a perfectly good tiebreaker that anyone can understand, no need for 5 different criteria.

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Thanks...a real attempt to find a plausible solution. Problem [probably insurmountable]: Convincing the world to develop a training regime for all of the wrestlers in the world to optimize performance in a 3 day format, except 1 weight class. Especially if the weight class is not certain at least 3 years in advance?

 

If I'm understanding what Ray has proposed, all freestyle weights would compete over 3 days, and all Greco weights would compete over two days.

 

The response seems to mix what you said and what I said a bit: an editing error, I think. You and I are close to being on the same page anyway.

 

Only if each day were required to have finals matches would any weight class have to peak for a one day tournament. But apparently the first day doesn't have that requirement -- and it should sell out no matter what.

 

I took Stan to mean that the IOC wants finals every day, but that they might bend on the first day:

 

1 or 2 days are the only option because of the Olympic program requirement to have finals everyday; or at the least every day but the 1st day?

 

I really do think the first day would sell out in any case, but if we're truly worried about it, we could try to assure it with the scheduling. If we assume that men's wrestling would draw more, you could swap LL and LF in my chart, so that both men's styles wrestled the first day. Or you could have the first blocks of all three divisions wrestle the first day, to pull in fans of each; this would probably mean giving either LL or LF a day off on the second day. This would be odd, but marketing considerations are already trumping tournament flow, so it's about what compromise works best.

 

If you really needed an extravaganza, you could even try to run everyone's first round match the first day. Assuming 9 first-round matches per weight, and 3 mats, that would be 54 matches per mat; if you could get through 6 matches per hour, that'd be 9 hours. This would be an awkward arrangement in several ways (e.g. someone's finals will be 7 days later), but if you were desperate to pimp the first day without finals, it might work.

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Below is a potential schedule that allows for three day Olympic tournaments for both men's and women's freestyle, with full wrestle backs and overtime. Three day tournaments would allow each wrestler to wrestle only a few times per day, with lengthy rest periods between matches.

 

In this scenario, Greco-Roman has a one day tournament, to distinguish it from freestyle. Two finals take place on each day of the eight day tournament, except for the last day, which has four finals.

 

I apologize for the sloppy formatting -- I can't figure out how to fix it.

 

****

Weekly Schedule (with competing weight classes indicated for each day)

 

Day 1: GR 1-2, WF 1-2 (2 GR finals)

Day 2: GR 3-4, WF 1-4 (2 GR finals)

Day 3: WF 1-6 (2 WF finals)

Day 4: FS 1-2, WF 3-6 (2 WF finals)

Day 5: FS 1-4, WF 5-6 (2 WF finals)

Day 6: FS 1-6 (2 FS finals)

Day 7: FS 3-6 (2 FS finals)

Day 8: FS 5-6, GR 5-6 (2 FS & 2 GR finals)

 

****

 

Wrestling is allocated 328 spots for the Olympics.

 

FS = 6 weights x 16-man brackets = 96 competitors

GR = 6 weights x 16-man brackets = 96 competitors

WF = 6 weights x 22/23-woman brackets = 136 competitors

 

****

 

Bracket of 16 (27 total matches)

Round of 16 = 8 matches

Wrestleback 1 = 4 matches

QF = 4 matches

Wrestleback 2 = 4 matches

Wrestleback 3 = 2 matches

SF = 2 matches

 

3rd-A = 1 match

3rd-B = 1 match

Final = 1 match

 

****

 

Bracket of 24 (43 total matches)

Round of 24 = 8 matches

Round of 16 = 8 matches

Wrestleback 1 = 8 matches

Wrestleback 2 = 4 matches

QF = 4 matches

Wrestleback 3 = 4 matches

Wrestleback 4 = 2 matches

SF = 2 matches

 

3rd-A = 1 match

3rd-B = 1 match

Final = 1 match

 

****

 

Daily Schedule (assumes 3 mats and 15 minutes/match, to account for overtime):

 

Day 1

0800-0930 GR 1-2 R16 (5.3 matches/mat)

0930-1100 WF 1-2 R24 (5.3 matches/mat)

1100-1230 GR 1-2 WB1/QF (5.3 matches/mat)

1230-1430 Break

1430-1530 GR 1-2 WB2 (2.7 matches/mat)

1530-1600 GR 1-2 SF (1.3 matches/mat)

1600-1730 WF 1-2 R16 (5.3 matches/mat)

1730-1830 GR 1-2 WB3 (2.7 matches/mat)

1830-2030 Break

2030-2200 GR 1-2 Finals (6.0 matches/mat)

 

Day 2

0800-0930 GR 3-4 R16 (5.3 matches/mat)

0930-1100 WF 3-4 R24 (5.3 matches/mat)

1100-1230 GR 3-4 WB1/QF (5.3 matches/mat)

1230-1400 WF 1-2 WB1 (5.3 matches/mat)

1400-1430 Break

1430-1530 GR 3-4 WB2 (2.7 matches/mat)

1530-1600 GR 3-4 SF (1.3 matches/mat)

1600-1730 WF 3-4 R16 (5.3 matches/mat)

1730-1830 GR 3-4 WB3 (2.7 matches/mat)

1830-2000 WF 1-2 WB2/QF (5.3 matches/mat)

2000-2030 Break

2030-2200 GR 3-4 Finals (6.0 matches/mat)

 

Day 3

0830-0930 WF 1-2 WB3 (2.7 matches/mat)

0930-1100 WF 5-6 R24 (5.3 matches/mat)

1100-1130 WF 1-2 SF (1.3 matches/mat)

1130-1230 Break

1230-1400 WF 3-4 WB1 (5.3 matches/mat)

1400-1530 Break

1530-1600 WF 1-2 WB4 (1.3 matches/mat)

1600-1730 WF 5-6 R16 (5.3 matches/mat)

1730-1830 Break

1830-2000 WF 3-4 WB2/QF (5.3 matches/mat)

2000-2030 Break

2030-2200 WF 1-2 Finals (6.0 matches/mat)

 

Day 4

0830-0930 WF 3-4 WB3 (2.7 matches/mat)

0930-1100 FS 1-2 R16 (5.3 matches/mat)

1100-1130 WF 3-4 SF (1.3 matches/mat)

1130-1230 Break

1230-1400 WF 5-6 WB1 (5.3 matches/mat)

1400-1530 Break

1530-1600 WF 3-4 WB4 (1.3 matches/mat)

1600-1830 FS 1-2 WB1 (5.3 matches/mat)

1830-2000 WF 5-6 WB2/QF (5.3 matches/mat)

2000-2030 Break

2030-2200 WF 3-4 Finals (6.0 matches/mat)

 

Day 5

0830-0930 WF 5-6 WB3 (2.7 matches/mat)

0930-1100 FS 3-4 R16 (5.3 matches/mat)

1100-1130 WF 5-6 SF (1.3 matches/mat)

1130-1230 FS 1-2 QF (2.7 matches/mat)

1230-1530 Break

1530-1600 WF 5-6 WB4 (1.3 matches/mat)

1600-1830 FS 3-4 WB1 (5.3 matches/mat)

1830-1930 FS 1-2 WB2 (2.7 matches/mat)

1930-2030 Break

2030-2200 WF 5-6 Finals (6.0 matches/mat)

 

Day 6

0830-0900 FS 1-2 SF (1.3 matches/mat)

0900-0930 FS 1-2 WB3 (1.3 matches/mat)

0930-1100 FS 5-6 R16 (5.3 matches/mat)

1100-1130 Break

1130-1230 FS 3-4 QF (2.7 matches/mat)

1230-1600 Break

1600-1830 FS 5-6 WB1 (5.3 matches/mat)

1830-1930 FS 3-4 WB2 (2.7 matches/mat)

1930-2030 Break

2030-2200 FS 1-2 Finals (6.0 matches/mat)

 

Day 7

0830-0900 FS 3-4 SF (1.3 matches/mat)

0900-0930 FS 3-4 WB3 (1.3 matches/mat)

0930-1130 Break

1130-1230 FS 5-6 QF (2.7 matches/mat)

1230-1830 Break

1830-1930 FS 5-6 WB2 (2.7 matches/mat)

1930-2030 Break

2030-2200 FS 3-4 Finals (6.0 matches/mat)

 

Day 8

0800-0930 GR 5-6 R16 (5.3 matches/mat)

0930-1000 FS 5-6 SF (1.3 matches/mat)

1000-1030 FS 5-6 WB3 (1.3 matches/mat)

1100-1230 GR 5-6 WB1/QF (5.3 matches/mat)

1230-1430 Break

1430-1530 GR 5-6 WB2 (2.7 matches/mat)

1530-1600 GR 5-6 SF (1.3 matches/mat)

1600-1730 Break

1730-1830 GR 5-6 WB3 (2.7 matches/mat)

1830-2000 FS 5-6 Finals (6.0 matches/mat)

2000-2030 Break

2030-2200 GR 5-6 Finals (6.0 matches/mat)

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quanon wrote,

Below is a potential schedule that allows for three day Olympic tournaments for both men's and women's freestyle, with full wrestle backs and overtime. Three day tournaments would allow each wrestler to wrestle only a few times per day, with lengthy rest periods between matches.

In this scenario, Greco-Roman has a one day tournament, to distinguish it from freestyle. Two finals take place on each day of the eight day tournament, except for the last day, which has four finals.

 

I apologize for the sloppy formatting -- I can't figure out how to fix it.

 

One insurmountable hurdle: As it already has been determined & presented to the FILA Bureau in Budapest, RIO has wrestling scheduled for 6 days [2 GR, 2 FW & 2 FS] in a venue shared by other sports in each of the other days???

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quanon wrote,

Below is a potential schedule that allows for three day Olympic tournaments for both men's and women's freestyle, with full wrestle backs and overtime. Three day tournaments would allow each wrestler to wrestle only a few times per day, with lengthy rest periods between matches.

In this scenario, Greco-Roman has a one day tournament, to distinguish it from freestyle. Two finals take place on each day of the eight day tournament, except for the last day, which has four finals.

 

I apologize for the sloppy formatting -- I can't figure out how to fix it.

 

One insurmountable hurdle: As it already has been determined & presented to the FILA Bureau in Budapest, RIO has wrestling scheduled for 6 days [2 GR, 2 FW & 2 FS] in a venue shared by other sports in each of the other days???

What else do you know about this? Three mats? When must the event begin and end each day? How many hours of breaks need to be given throughout the day?

 

If you give me this information, I assume that I could come up with a schedule that would fit.

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quanon wrote,

Below is a potential schedule that allows for three day Olympic tournaments for both men's and women's freestyle, with full wrestle backs and overtime. Three day tournaments would allow each wrestler to wrestle only a few times per day, with lengthy rest periods between matches.

In this scenario, Greco-Roman has a one day tournament, to distinguish it from freestyle. Two finals take place on each day of the eight day tournament, except for the last day, which has four finals.

 

I apologize for the sloppy formatting -- I can't figure out how to fix it.

 

One insurmountable hurdle: As it already has been determined & presented to the FILA Bureau in Budapest, RIO has wrestling scheduled for 6 days [2 GR, 2 FW & 2 FS] in a venue shared by other sports in each of the other days???

What else do you know about this? Three mats? When must the event begin and end each day? How many hours of breaks need to be given throughout the day?

 

If you give me this information, I assume that I could come up with a schedule that would fit.

 

time for FILA to get with the web 2.0 and do some crowd sourcing!

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Thank you for responding Stan. You lightly touched on the issue I wrote about as the intro to this discussion. Can you elaborate on what might be in store, if only from a "FILA is considering....." viewpoint?

 

mspart

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good luck getting everyone to agree to start at 8AM and end at 11PM.

 

Worlds this year started at 1PM. (ridiculous)

 

start tournament earlier, have 6 weights over 2 days (instead of 3 over 1)

 

and there wouldn't be go-time issues and empty mats. (which is a separate ball of thread to untangle)

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One insurmountable hurdle: As it already has been determined & presented to the FILA Bureau in Budapest, RIO has wrestling scheduled for 6 days [2 GR, 2 FW & 2 FS] in a venue shared by other sports in each of the other days???

What else do you know about this? Three mats? When must the event begin and end each day? How many hours of breaks need to be given throughout the day?

The most troubling thing here is the meaning of "[2 GR, 2 FW & 2 FS]"; is that, "we have 6 days, on the reasoning of 2 days each", or "each style has 2 days"? If the latter, along with the requirement of medals each day, there's not enough flexibility left to accomplish anything. A block of six freely allocatable days is tight, but probably still workable (depending on the kind of parameters you're asking for).

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good luck getting everyone to agree to start at 8AM and end at 11PM.

 

Worlds this year started at 1PM. (ridiculous)

 

start tournament earlier, have 6 weights over 2 days (instead of 3 over 1)

 

and there wouldn't be go-time issues and empty mats. (which is a separate ball of thread to untangle)

 

2200 is 10 PM, which is a reasonable time for finals to end, I think.

 

If there have to be two days of competition only for each style, and there have to be finals on each day, then there's nothing you can do. But why would the IOC care about each style having two days? I believe all of these time-related issues can be addressed, as long as there is political willingness to do so.

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How closely do other events have to align with the Olympic schedule? If the IOC wants quickie tournaments, so be it. Does every world championship- as well as other major tournament- really have to follow the same format?

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How closely do other events have to align with the Olympic schedule? If the IOC wants quickie tournaments, so be it. Does every world championship- as well as other major tournament- really have to follow the same format?

This is a good question. For marketing purposes, it seems obvious to me that all finals of a style should be back to back on a single night, so that they can be packaged for television.

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Posting this chart in two parts, to get around the height limitation on images, and still have something legible:

 

olympic-schedule-6-day-pt-1.png

olympic-schedule-6-day-pt-2.png

 

Given the option of no finals on the first day, it should be possible to:


    • Distribute the matches per day reasonably consistently
    • Give one division a 2-day tournament and the other two 3-day tournaments
    • Interrupt no more than 3 weight classes with off days, and with no more than 1 day off
    • Distribute the finals across 5 days as evenly as whole numbers allow.

The way I'm calculating match load should be more obvious here. Also obvious should be the oversimplification: the third day of a 3-day tournament will not have the same number of matches as the first. If you used different, more realistic values for each of the three days, it would stack differently. Better, I think.

 

And since you can make choices about how to schedule each weight (rather than assuming the same match schedule for each), this chart is actually makes a pessimistic assumption. Once you break it down, more on the level of what quanon is playing with, you should be able to even out those load numbers a good deal further, and perhaps eliminate an off day for a weight class or two.

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How closely do other events have to align with the Olympic schedule? If the IOC wants quickie tournaments, so be it. Does every world championship- as well as other major tournament- really have to follow the same format?

This is a good question. For marketing purposes, it seems obvious to me that all finals of a style should be back to back on a single night, so that they can be packaged for television.

 

this is one of the biggest questions that never gets answered. even if the weight classes have to remain the same in off season, why would the IOC possibly care if the world championships have a different schedule?

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The way I'm calculating match load should be more obvious here. Also obvious should be the oversimplification: the third day of a 3-day tournament will not have the same number of matches as the first. If you used different, more realistic values for each of the three days, it would stack differently. Better, I think.

 

And since you can make choices about how to schedule each weight (rather than assuming the same match schedule for each), this chart is actually makes a pessimistic assumption. Once you break it down, more on the level of what quanon is playing with, you should be able to even out those load numbers a good deal further, and perhaps eliminate an off day for a weight class or two.

 

I'll break down a six-day schedule in detail as soon as I get the time to do so.

 

With six days to play with, I'm going to keep Greco tournaments at a single day, and freestyle at three days each, for two reasons:

 

1) This should give us finals on each day.

2) This distinguishes the two styles.

 

Both are key IOC considerations.

 

If I know the start, end, and break requirements, I'll have a more accurate potential schedule.

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If I know the start, end, and break requirements, I'll have a more accurate potential schedule.

The more we know about the constraints FILA labors faces, the better. If there are better ways to meet the same requirements, people can suggest them. If there aren't, we can at least be sympathetic, rather than blaming them for what seem to be unaccountably bad decisions. Unfortunately, there's still much that isn't common knowledge (e.g. "Why can't we do X differently on non-Olympic years?")

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amazing what can get done on this dopey message board and what can't get done by an entire governing body.

 

My sentiments exactly. Thanks for articulating.

 

Also still confused as to why all logistical elements are a secret until disclosed one at a time, usually after a better solution has been revealed by a message board poster.

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