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WreslingSuperior

Catch as Catch Can Wrestling

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I always thought that "catch as catch can" was the basis for our folkstyle wrestling. In other words, our modern folkstyle evolved out of the historical catch as catch can as practiced by President Lincoln among others.

 

Any historians of wrestling want to weigh in?

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Correct. For example the UFC Heavyweight title contender Josh Barnett have Catch Wrestling base. Another mma fighter with Catch wrestling background is Sakuraba called "the Gracie hunter". Sakuraba submitted a lot of Bjj aces of Gracie family. Today Catch Wrestling is supported by Scientific Wrestling. Catch Wrestling is an old submission grappling art. Older than bjj. Incredibly ignored by freestyle/collegiate wreslers.

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Up till the early 20th century, "catch as catch can" was the style of professional wrestling, during the days of Gotch, Hackenschmidt, and many others. Matches could last up to hours, and involved chokes and submissions, in addition to pins and other common wrestling holds.

 

Modern day amateur wrestling came from this style, when the chokes and submission holds were removed to make the sport safer. I could not say exactly when, but Mike Chapman confirmed this when we were talking about it at one of the recent NCAAs. That new style evolved into modern-day amateur wrestling

 

On the other hand professional wrestling, as most know, soon evolved into more of a form of entertainment than actual sport, with most, if not all of the matches' outcomes worked or predetermined. It faded off the radar for quite a long time in the world of competitive wrestling.

 

This changed back in the early 90s with the advent of the UFC, and suddenly chokes and submission holds had a vital role in becoming proficient in this new sport. At that time, however, the most prominent style of fighting that involved these holds at the time was Gracie BJJ. The Gracies had actually helped launch the UFC as a way of displaying their art, and it became much more practiced and widespread as a result. That's probably why most prospective MMA fighters, even amateur wrestlers, drifted in the direction of BJJ rather than catch.

 

As noted above, certain organizations have been trying to revive the original catch-as-catch can style, and make it more mainstream. The art was has been widely practiced in Japanese professional wrestling for decades, where the line between real and fake is sometimes blurry. That's where Sakuraba learned his moves. Other groups, such as the Lion's Den, have practiced a similar version (Ken Shamrock brought back a lot of these moves from his Pancrase competition days in Japan). It's continuing to come back from ages past, just slower than other styles.

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Sakuraba is awesome! Sakuraba vs Renzo and Sakuraba vs Royler were awesome. Sakuraba vs Royce was epic! It is MMAs version of Hall vs Paulson. They fought for over an hour and half and Sakuraba made Royce quit. Unlike BJJ, catch wrestling takes some athleticism, conditioning, speed, and explosiveness (like modern wrestlers have/strive for.) IMO catch wrestling trumps BJJ, as evidenced by the best catch wrestler(Sakuraba) beating 4 family members of the family who invented BJJ(the Gracie's), along with Vitor Belfort, Alan Goes,etc... And this was back in the late 90's-early 2000's, so it was before everybody started cross training. It really was Catch wrestling vs BJJ.

 

Sorry most of you could probably care less, but Sakuraba is one of my heroes and my favorite fighter, so when I see someone mention his name anywhere, I get fired up! Catch wrestling is legit. I just wish they had it near where I live.

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Josh Barnett have Catch Wresling background and won the world bjj nogi moundial.

In my opinion USA Wrestling could add Catch Wrestling submission tournament. A lot of wrestling practitioner also train bjj or grappling. Catch wrestling could become a "new" big submission style. An ideal style for wrestlers.

 

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/11/24/2 ... -snake-pit

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Josh Barnett have Catch Wresling background and won the world bjj nogi moundial.

In my opinion USA Wrestling could add Catch Wrestling submission tournament. A lot of wrestling practitioner also train bjj or grappling. Catch wrestling could become a "new" big submission style. An ideal style for wrestlers.

 

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/11/24/2 ... -snake-pit

 

That's a good idea, actually. Adding a submission grappling tournament could add a lot of interest, especially if MMA guys with BJJ backgrounds enter the tournament. It could also flop, obviously. But it seems like it'd be worth the effort. Its not too hard to imagine MMA stars coming to watch their friends compete in the submission grappling tournament, and the former wrestlers would probably also watch the wrestling tournament.

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JOSH BARNETT: “Well, when I first started in learning about Mixed Martial Arts and getting involved,you know,atfirst I thought Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was judo, basically. I didn’t really know the difference and I had a little bit of judo experience but not a lot. But at my roots I’m a wrestler and so finding something that really worked with that and I never felt thatwrestling should bediscarded at all. I always felt it was necessary to be capable from all anglesbut not to everdiscard my wrestling. That was one of the strongest things that you can have in the ring and watching professional wrestling and being a huge fan of American & Canadian & Japanese professional wrestling for so long and seeing the techniques out there and knowing the lineage about it. Catch wrestling has a very deep lineage and the gym that I started working with came from people that had wrestling & catch wrestling backgrounds so it just made sense and it was so much more aggressive & violent than jiu-jitsu and I’ll be honest — at the time jiu-jitsu was very arrogant especially towards anyone that did not have a jiu-jitsu background or to an extent at the time just because you were not Brazilian. Times have changed a lot with a largeinflux of jiu-jitsu instructors and whatnot coming from Brazil or just being homegrown here in the United States, but back in 1995… 1994, you know, you tell somebody, ‘well, I wrestle, I do submissions’or whatever.

 

‘What’s your belt? Who’s your sensei?”

 

And I’m like, uh… you know, so-and-so. “Well, I don’t have a belt.”

 

“Well, whatever,” likethey discard you, like whatever you’re doing is all wrong.”

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Up till the early 20th century, "catch as catch can" was the style of professional wrestling, during the days of Gotch, Hackenschmidt, and many others. Matches could last up to hours, and involved chokes and submissions, in addition to pins and other common wrestling holds.

 

Modern day amateur wrestling came from this style, when the chokes and submission holds were removed to make the sport safer. I could not say exactly when, but Mike Chapman confirmed this when we were talking about it at one of the recent NCAAs. That new style evolved into modern-day amateur wrestling

 

The Gotch v Hackenshmidt match happened in 1908 under "catch wrestling" rules including submissions and chokes. This style, in the US, morphed into professional wrestling as we know it in the 20s as revenues declined and fixing the matches brought in more interest. Finally putting that 20-page undergraduate paper on the history of wrestling to good use! My memory is a little fuzzy on details, so I had to look the evolution of the rules.

 

According to Wikipedia, "freestyle" wrestling first appeared in 1904 in the St. Louis Olympics with "dangerous" holds barred for safety reasons. By 1921 FILA codified rules barring submissions, strikes, chokes etc. Time limits, referees decisions and point scoring appeared in folkstyle wrestling by the 40s and international wrestling by the 60s.

 

Someone needs to update the "Freestyle Wrestling" page as it describes the ball grab rules.

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Since we're talking about bringing back a nearly dead form of wrestling, why don't we also start hosting collar and elbow wrestling tournaments? How come no one does that anymore?

 

There are a handful of catch wrestling rules tournaments in this country. They are very lightly attended and usually feature no scoring system, no time limit, with the winner decided by best 2 out of 3 pins or submissions. I would think to really be a viable rule set and have tournaments with large scale appeal and participation you'd need to add a time limit and a scoring system.

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Collar and elbow wouldn't help you in MMA and get you better at folkstyle/freestyle.

 

Catch wrestling definitely would help with the first and likely help with the second.

 

Totally agree.

 

Why wouldn't collar and elbow be useful in MMA exactly?

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Collar and elbow wouldn't help you in MMA and get you better at folkstyle/freestyle.

 

Catch wrestling definitely would help with the first and likely help with the second.

 

Totally agree.

 

Why wouldn't collar and elbow be useful in MMA exactly?

 

? Granted I've never seen a collar and elbow match but from what I've read the reasons for incompatibility with MMA are obvious.

 

Does collar and elbow use submissions and chokes? And do MMA fighters spend a lot of time hanging on a collar or elbow? I don't think that is a position that comes up often like free/folk positioning, throws, or submissions in the case of catch.

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