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Zelph

Iowa better get used to 2nd and lower

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Where does this idea that Cael is a "great" coach come from? If he was a great coach, how come his Iowa State teams never won? Any college coach who is being at all honest (in wrestling and in pretty much any sport) will tell you that recruiting is far more important than coaching.

 

PSU has a huge recruiting advantage based on its location. When it hired Cael, it signaled that it was finally taking advantage of that advantage. Taylor, Ruth, Mega, McIntosh, the Altons-- they were all top 10, mostly top 5, recruits. The championships followed. It wasn't Cael finally learning that pinning and bonus points where good thing. It wasn't great coaching at all.

 

Iowa, meanwhile, has a great tradition. But it is in a small, poor state which, relative to the nation as a whole and relative to neighboring states, is only getting smaller. While Iowa may have produced a lot of NCAA champions, that was mostly years ago. Thus Iowa can only regain the top spot if it can convince out-of-state wrestlers that Iowa City is the place to be. Not an easy task.

 

Recruiting is a part of coaching. I don't see the need to separate them. And maybe Cael is a better coach now than he was when he was at Iowa State? Isn't that at least a possibility?

 

Most great coaches get a ton of great recruits over the course of their careers. How many blue chippers did Gable get? A ton.

 

And do you have anything to support your claim that what Cael has been doing isn't, "great coaching at all"? Could you also tell me what precise years Gable showed that he was a great coach?

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I happen to agree with you, TBar, that 3 titles is pretty hard to argue with and that any other coach in any other sport with 3 titles is going to be considered a great coach. That doesn't mean that anything Dan presented you was false.

 

He implied, quite strongly in fact, that Cael was not a great coach. Your post in response is contradictory in nature if you both agree with me and ask where NJDAN is wrong.

 

 

As opposed to just freaking out every time someone says something negative about Penn St. why don't you guys have a big boy conversation. What did NJDan say that was inaccurate? He stated several facts in there to support his theory. That's called talking like an intelligent human being. You guys (and Tigs is the worst) just automatically freak and go bonkers anytime someone says something negative about PSU and you sound ignorant when you respond. I happen to agree with you, TBar, that 3 titles is pretty hard to argue with and that any other coach in any other sport with 3 titles is going to be considered a great coach. That doesn't mean that anything Dan presented you was false. Calm down. Talk like a grown up. Have an intelligent conversation. Dan presented some good, fair points. Cael did not look overly good at Iowa St. Cael did move to a recruiting hot bed. The guys Dan mentioned were top 5 recruits. Iowa economics and Pennsylvania economics are different. I mean come on guys. This blind PSU love nonsense is what everyone has been complaining about for 3 years. It's not your team. It's not your wrestlers. Those are both fantastic. It's you guys!!! Calm down and engage Dan in a grown up conversation. Try it. Adults everywhere outside of the state of Pennsylvania do it all the time!! I promise!!

 

 

Wow. I think you threw at least a dozen or so insults into that post, Gonzo. Other than pointing this fact out, and pointing out the sheer childish hypocrisy of your post, I'm not going to respond further.

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Sometimes keeping your mouth shut makes you look smarter than opening it TBar. If the rest of the crazies try this same strategy I think we'd have a much more Kumbaya atmosphere around here. You're setting a good example for your boys TBar, I applaud you.

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I am consistently not a fan of PSU Fans and mostly PSU posters on here.

 

However,

Cael is a good coach and here is why:

 

1. Recruiting: plenty of other schools have the same opportunity to land studs as him, he gets them and recruiting is as important a part of coaching as any. Anyone that thinks that recruiting isn't a coaching skill is still living in the 80's. As important is recruiting the types of kids you know fit your program.

 

2. Results: 3 titles, I'm done here.

 

3. Interest in the community in and around your school. Well PSU has certainly gained fans, or at least gained fans back. Philly was dominated by PSU fans and if nothing else besides winning has spawned it then fan interest is a biproduct of Cael's record.

 

4. Emphasizes the Olympic styles. Cael is involved with Freestyle and pushes his guys to compete in the psot grad styles. It is a matter of time before they start medaling. I believe they have a RTC as well.

 

5. Development of athletes. People rarely show up as refined NC's. Taylor redshirted and took some losses as a freshman. He is as dominant a wrestler currently as we've seen. He didn't wish on a star and get good, the staff at PSU had something to do with developing him. Megaludis took some big losses as a freshman and showed up in the NCAA Finals, that ain't no fluke boys. He got mileage out of Pearsall and Conaway last year and won the title without two horses placing. More importantly many of his guys wrestle differing styles which shows his program can develop kids in many ways.

 

6. Active in the wrestling community. Regardless if you agree with him or not (which I don't on many things, IE: Duals etc) he is active. He makes his voice heard and the sport is better for it.

 

There are plenty of reasons more why but I really can't see how anyone can question this.

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LordNelson-I agree with almost everything you said. You stated it intelligently and like a grown man. Not a post filled with emotion and nonsense. I, too, think Cael is a good coach, great recruiter, and Penn St. being a force is great for wrestling!! They just need to put on a seminar on how to handle winning for their fans and they'll be in great shape!!

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I am consistently not a fan of PSU Fans and mostly PSU posters on here.

 

However,

Cael is a good coach and here is why:

 

1. Recruiting: plenty of other schools have the same opportunity to land studs as him, he gets them and recruiting is as important a part of coaching as any. Anyone that thinks that recruiting isn't a coaching skill is still living in the 80's. As important is recruiting the types of kids you know fit your program.

 

2. Results: 3 titles, I'm done here.

 

3. Interest in the community in and around your school. Well PSU has certainly gained fans, or at least gained fans back. Philly was dominated by PSU fans and if nothing else besides winning has spawned it then fan interest is a biproduct of Cael's record.

 

4. Emphasizes the Olympic styles. Cael is involved with Freestyle and pushes his guys to compete in the psot grad styles. It is a matter of time before they start medaling. I believe they have a RTC as well.

 

5. Development of athletes. People rarely show up as refined NC's. Taylor redshirted and took some losses as a freshman. He is as dominant a wrestler currently as we've seen. He didn't wish on a star and get good, the staff at PSU had something to do with developing him. Megaludis took some big losses as a freshman and showed up in the NCAA Finals, that ain't no fluke boys. He got mileage out of Pearsall and Conaway last year and won the title without two horses placing. More importantly many of his guys wrestle differing styles which shows his program can develop kids in many ways.

 

6. Active in the wrestling community. Regardless if you agree with him or not (which I don't on many things, IE: Duals etc) he is active. He makes his voice heard and the sport is better for it.

 

There are plenty of reasons more why but I really can't see how anyone can question this.

 

Regardless of his stint at ISU, he was smart enough to put the call to PSU and ask for the job. That's pretty smart from my perspective. Plus, he did build a pretty good staff to help him with the job on hand.

 

A previous post stated that Iowa HS wrestling is "down" ... ?? I'm not close enough to that, to know for sure. Yet it looks as tho Iowa has grabbed a few good Iowa HS kids this year.

 

There will come a time, when they will not be the top dog. I will be fun to see how long Cael can keep it going at the level he is at now ... OKState, Minny, Oklahoma ... These guys will have something to say about in.

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Wire-1. I don't think Iowa high school is down that much. 2. Ohio St. will also have something to say starting next year I believe. 3. I think Penn St. has a real good shot to keep this thing going because I think Marstellar and Retherford are that good. Now time will tell how correct I am but I think you could argue that Retherford and Marstellar are ahead of where Taylor and Ruth were at the same time. I don't say this lightly as I saw Ruth in high school and I SAW exactly what he became. I saw special like I've rarely seen.

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nothing else besides winning has spawned it then fan interest

 

I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, but it does seem to be the ONLY thing that really gets people interested and supportive of amateur wrestling. All other sports seem to have something else, or a few something else's, but as far as from where I stand, that seems to be wrestling's only appeal to most fans. Not only win, but dominate. If you aren't doing that, seats remain empty. If you are, they get filled.

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someone mentioned that Cael has the advantage of being in PA, which has this great wealth of talent. Part of this is true, but he still has to get them to PSU.

 

How many great PA wrestlers have been going out of state all of these years - kids like Jordan Oliver, Coleman Scott, Jake Herbert. Today, those guys would be wrestling for PSU.

 

I figure Cael must have something to do with the accumulation of this embarrassment of riches at Happy Valley.

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As opposed to just freaking out every time someone says something negative about Penn St. why don't you guys have a big boy conversation. What did NJDan say that was inaccurate? He stated several facts in there to support his theory. That's called talking like an intelligent human being. You guys (and Tigs is the worst) just automatically freak and go bonkers anytime someone says something negative about PSU and you sound ignorant when you respond. I happen to agree with you, TBar, that 3 titles is pretty hard to argue with and that any other coach in any other sport with 3 titles is going to be considered a great coach. That doesn't mean that anything Dan presented you was false. Calm down. Talk like a grown up. Have an intelligent conversation. Dan presented some good, fair points. Cael did not look overly good at Iowa St. Cael did move to a recruiting hot bed. The guys Dan mentioned were top 5 recruits. Iowa economics and Pennsylvania economics are different. I mean come on guys. This blind PSU love nonsense is what everyone has been complaining about for 3 years. It's not your team. It's not your wrestlers. Those are both fantastic. It's you guys!!! Calm down and engage Dan in a grown up conversation. Try it. Adults everywhere outside of the state of Pennsylvania do it all the time!! I promise!!

 

Actually Dr., it was his "body of work", not just this post. I would love a grown-up conversation with him or anyone about all things wrestling. In fact, your post didn't help at all in moving the conversation forward, with what comes across as a bitter, sarcastic diatribe about PSU fans. But, I must agree totally with your message...we should be able to calm down and talk about things. Seems easier said than done though, wouldn't you agree?

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Where does this idea that Cael is a "great" coach come from? If he was a great coach, how come his Iowa State teams never won? Any college coach who is being at all honest (in wrestling and in pretty much any sport) will tell you that recruiting is far more important than coaching.

 

PSU has a huge recruiting advantage based on its location. When it hired Cael, it signaled that it was finally taking advantage of that advantage. Taylor, Ruth, Mega, McIntosh, the Altons-- they were all top 10, mostly top 5, recruits. The championships followed. It wasn't Cael finally learning that pinning and bonus points where good thing. It wasn't great coaching at all.

 

Iowa, meanwhile, has a great tradition. But it is in a small, poor state which, relative to the nation as a whole and relative to neighboring states, is only getting smaller. While Iowa may have produced a lot of NCAA champions, that was mostly years ago. Thus Iowa can only regain the top spot if it can convince out-of-state wrestlers that Iowa City is the place to be. Not an easy task.

 

I am a fan of Cael tho not a really big one. He is an excellent coach. He has learned and progressed since the ISU years. A room full of studs and he couldn't get the team trophy. Before him Bobby Douglas had a room full of studs and could't do it either. Cael/Heskett/Holker all won titles and ISU could not win the trophy.

 

So, Cael is at PedState now and winning big. Good for him and good for the kids who choose to wrestle for him. It is good for the sport. Oklahoma State, Oiwa, Minnehaha and possibly theOhio State are the contenders for second place this year. Next year - that will tell more about coaching as we see the results of developing upcoming talent.

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I know Cael didn't win a team title at Iowa State...... but didn't they do pretty well?? I think top 10...Is that bad??? My biq question is WHAT MAKES CAEL NOT A GREAT COACH? He's won 3 titles in a row....Please be specific instead of just giving an opinion without elaborating

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You will get no argument from these quarters. As I stated above, three consecutive NCAA titles and being a heavy favorite for four peat pretty much defines what a great coach is.

 

Iowa fans said he wasn't a great coach when he was at Iowa State. Then they said he wasn't a great coach when Penn State hired him and he took the job, despite many Penn State fans instantly recognizing and posting about the Cael + PA Recruiting Hotbed potential. Now he has three straight Big10 and NCAA titles and they still state he isn't a great coach.

 

Something just screams out this is more about Iowa insecurity than it is about Cael Sanderson.

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Cael has effectively built a wall around PA, and he also gets the top kid in thevweight class he needs from CA. Iowa State became 2nd to Iowa in being able to recruit thevin state kids. It is hard to build a championship team if you don't get the bulk of the best in state kids. OSU has essentially owned Oklahoma for 20 years without much competition. Mark Cody made some in roads by landing the Dixon triplets. Their mom told me they were surprised at how many people were upset they weren't going to OSU.

 

John Smith recruited very well in-state again, but he didn't get everyone he wanted last year and this year. Since Cael took over PA, he's switched his focus to Ohio and NY.

 

You can't be considered a great coach if you don't win championships. You don't win championships without great athletes. Great coaches are also great recruiters. Why is Alabama at the top in football now? Nick Saban is a great technical coach, but he's getting more than his fair share of the bluechip recruits. Cael is getting more bluechip wrestling recruits right now more so than any other school right now. Ok-State and Ohio State are probably the closest. Iowa and Minnesota aren't far behind.

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Cael did very well in Iowa state but it was obvious if Cael couldn't raise ISU out of Iowa/Gables shadow then no one was going to do it... at least not in the short term.

 

And clearly Cael enjoys winning. After going 159-0 in college, winning Olympic Gold, and coaching 3 straight NCAA title teams he wouldn't be satisfied at ISU with regular top 10 or even top 5 finishes.

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I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, but it does seem to be the ONLY thing that really gets people interested and supportive of amateur wrestling. All other sports seem to have something else, or a few something else's, but as far as from where I stand, that seems to be wrestling's only appeal to most fans. Not only win, but dominate. If you aren't doing that, seats remain empty. If you are, they get filled.

 

I agree but to a point.

You can put people in the stands if you are active in local wrestling communities. Winning can be made into a perspective.

 

One thing Pat Popolizio did extremely well in his short run in Binghamton was reach out, interact, and involve the local wrestling community at all levels. He promoted the Bearcats non stop in many medias and took time to be at local HS events. He and his staff brought people to watch a team that struggled early then eventually peaked with a top 15 finish before he left.

 

Binghamton was never in any national championship hunt, but people came out to support the top guys on the team and the local kids wrestling on the team as well. It was a frustrating in the beginning but the payoff in the end showed.

 

My point is it can be done. A coach in a non traditional fan base has to do more than show technique and blow whistles in the room. If he chooses this route then he better put people on the podium in March or he should have his job questioned every year. CEO type coaches are the wave of the future and what is best for the sport, especially at the DI level where programs have steadily decreased in numbers in the past 20 years.

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I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, but it does seem to be the ONLY thing that really gets people interested and supportive of amateur wrestling. All other sports seem to have something else, or a few something else's, but as far as from where I stand, that seems to be wrestling's only appeal to most fans. Not only win, but dominate. If you aren't doing that, seats remain empty. If you are, they get filled.

 

I agree but to a point.

You can put people in the stands if you are active in local wrestling communities. Winning can be made into a perspective.

 

One thing Pat Popolizio did extremely well in his short run in Binghamton was reach out, interact, and involve the local wrestling community at all levels. He promoted the Bearcats non stop in many medias and took time to be at local HS events. He and his staff brought people to watch a team that struggled early then eventually peaked with a top 15 finish before he left.

 

Binghamton was never in any national championship hunt, but people came out to support the top guys on the team and the local kids wrestling on the team as well. It was a frustrating in the beginning but the payoff in the end showed.

 

My point is it can be done. A coach in a non traditional fan base has to do more than show technique and blow whistles in the room. If he chooses this route then he better put people on the podium in March or he should have his job questioned every year. CEO type coaches are the wave of the future and what is best for the sport, especially at the DI level where programs have steadily decreased in numbers in the past 20 years.

 

 

Excellent response in bringing up Popolizio. When I hear the argument for, "Who is the best wrestling coahc in current times" and I hear the answer of, "Pat Popolizio" you won't get any arguments from me. Sure, North Carolina State isn't going to be making a run for an NCAA team title, but when it comes to promoting the sport and doing the little things to not only ensure our survival, but see it thrive, Popolizio is about the best there is. He's not the only one, and I'm not saying he is, cause others work hard to do the same thing.

 

Not everyone does though, and I'm with you that if they did, that would be key to ensuring the few teams we have left in NCAA DI wrestling are here to stay. (And yes I realize that there are some who work diligently, but the fruits of their labor aren't seen by the naked eye because of how little support they get in their efforts)

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You mention "how little support they get".

 

My point is that it is the Coach's job to Foster that Support.

People didn't come out just because....

Pat busted his beanbag and hired the staff that did similar things to ensure that people supported him, not because they had to but because they wanted to.

 

He utilized his alumni as well, not easy to do considering a mix of DIII and DI people. He also had time for everyone in the room regardless of the outcome of the match or tournament.

 

Coaches that think they can just come in and do the minimum coaching, not utilize local people, and keep a good connection to their alumni are just flat out coaching in the 80's. They are killing the sport.

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