Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Holden C.

P4P Rankings

Recommended Posts

Taylor was very sick for the first Hatchett match. This is a FACT. I was there and could see he looked horrible walking out to the mat. It was confirmed by VERY RELIABLE SOURCES the next day that he was very sick with the flue. As further confirmation, DT won by TF the next time they faced each other. So superold, that ends that discussion because you do not have ANY FACTS on the matter, just your hater opinion so take your own advise and stop speculating on things you don't have information on. I mean you keep demanding everyone else to justify their opinion while you act like your opinion is a fact instead of the ramblings of a senile old man.

 

Okay, you say he was sick fine. I'll accept that and your sources although you don't say who they are. Where you may go to far is to say that the ncaa finals months later confirms that he was sick. That's certainly not a fact. And no, that doesn't end the discussion. I already gave a few reasons why the second match could have been different from the first. We don't know which one of those reasons played a bigger role than the other. If you can't say for sure, then you'd have to admit you are just stating your opinion as well. You may want to say that you have facts on your side and I don't, but the fact is, you're engaging in speculation. That's true no matter if you want to admit it or not. Declaring something a fact doesn't make it a fact. You know that. Also, how is my opinion a "hater opinion"? Please explain.

 

And where did I act as if my opinion was a fact? Where? I've already pointed out where you did the very thing your accusing me of! Can you do the same?

 

 

 

In regard to Marsteller, you are like a bad comedy routine. The guy has accomplished so much yet you want to diminish his high school career at every turn and focus on his only bad tournament that was with college guys where he was VERY SICK - FACT. He has defeated numerous highly ranked wrestlers, state champions & division I recruits - FACT. He recently defeated an Olympian as he won an international tournament against senior wrestlers - FACT. He is P4P #1 by objective rankers- FACT.

 

 

How am I diminishing his career. I've heard him being compared to Kolat so many times, and I'm just curious how this is possible. I see no evidence to put Chance and Kolat in the same category. None. How do you know he was "VERY SICK"? Or better yet, the severity of his sickness and what EXACT ROLE IT HAD ON THE OUTCOME OF THE MATCH? It's so easy to just make assertions without backing them up like you do. Anyone can do that.

 

Can you be clear, you are saying that the biggest reason that Chance lost two matches to college wrestlers was because he was sick? And is that how EVERYONE should treat those matches? Please answer.

 

And there are many people who don't believe Chance is #1 P4P. There are some who give it to Synder since he won the Junior Worlds and beat at least one very respectable collegiate wrestler in the process of making the team. For you to say that they are biased when that is something Chance has not done seems more biased than anything I've seen here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Old

 

I'm done with Chance. You can infer whatever you want.

 

Fine Jrod. You may not want to admit it, but you have inferred far more than I have. I don't know why you seemingly want to pretend that your inferences are something more than they really are.

 

In regards to Taylor, nobody said he was sick for Dake and Jenkins. Many commented he was sick in the first Hatchett match. If people were in the excuse making business wouldn't they do it for those national title matches instead of a meaningless dual? I said maybe he needed to figure him out as a joke that I guess you didn't get. Pretty sure he bonused everyone that year except the first Hatchett match and an Evans stallfest. Reported sick and has unusual close decision. Next match 22-7 thrashing. Are there other possible scenarios, sure. They are not likely though in my opinion. Your stretching to try and come to a conclusion other than the likely one.

 

I've heard plenty of excuses for his Dake and Jenkins match, and you're right his physical health is one excuse you don't hear very often. If you are asking me if I ran across many people who made excuses for Taylor, then the answer is "yes". Unfortunately, I've ran into a lot. As a matter of fact, there are still posters on this very site who aren't willing to make an unqualified statement that Dake is better.

 

The fact that he bonused everyone else on that year DOESN'T NECESSARILY indicated that his sickness was the biggest reason for the first match being closer than the second. I'm glad you at least admit that. But, the point was that in previous posts, you acted as if you were stating the raw facts and only I was engaging in speculation. The truth is, you engaged in as much, and actually even more speculation than I did. I didn't make any dogmatic statements one way or the other like you did. You say, "You're stretching to try and come to another conclusion other than the likely one". This presupposes that you know which conclusion is the most likely. That's something you need to argue for. To your credit, you gave a few reasons, but it's not like you exhausted all the possibilities here. Another possibility is that Taylor raised his level of wrestling to a level that was much higher than the first match. If you look at his tournament up until the final, that seems like a strong possibility. At ncaas, many were saying that Taylor was wrestling at his absolute best at ncaas that year, at least a notch above his normal level he showed throughout the season. If you want to say that's not true, fine. Still, that's what many people said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NJWC, rankings are subjective for sure, but it is a fact that unbiased rankers have him #1.

 

Of course they do. But, are you saying that every ranker that doesn't have him #1 is biased?

 

If I wanted to say that then that's what I would have said. Since I didn't say that, you can conclude that I didn't intend to say that. It sounds like you are arguing for arguments sake. I did intend to say that.

 

Here are some facts about Chance Marstellar.

 

1) Willie at flo has him P4P #1

2) To the best of my knowledge Chance has never lost to a h.s. wrestler, even when entering meets as an 8th grader.

3) Chance has beaten so many state champions I have lost count. Most of those state champions Chance has majored, teched and pinned.

 

Let me ask you a question. What more does Chance have to do to gain your respect ???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can't just simply say that the "only thing" stopping Chance from winning the worlds was his injury. How about the other wrestlers? Chance was losing in the semi finals before the injury, there was no guarantee he would have won that match, or any other match. It's possible he could have won, but it's also possible that he could have lost. He was down a period at the time of his injury.

 

And of course Chance got injured at Cadet Worlds, Snyder won Junior worlds. Two different levels of competition.

 

Actually, Chance was not losing when he got injured. He finished a TD right as the period ended, but it didn't count and they went to the ball grab. Chance lost the ball grab & was defending his opponents attempt at a score when he injured his elbow. Not that it matters. Snyder is certainly worthy of being # 1, but Chance wasn't losing when he got hurt.

 

He didn't finish the takedown, and that's why they went to the ball grab in the first place. Why say he finished a takedown when it didn't count? Yes, his opponent hit him with a gut wrench and he landed awkwardly on his elbow. The points were already scored. It's not as though if his elbow would have held up he could have still won the period. That was not the case.

 

The video is even online. Once his hand hits, the points are awarded.

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/24 ... Semi-FInal

 

Dude, you are a piece of work. He finishes the TD right when the buzzer hits. All of the offensive attempts were initiated by Chance, and he simply ran out of time on the last attempt. I am not a FS guru, but I don't think the points are awarded when his hands hit. I believe it has to be a knee hitting. Either way, the effort that you expend to discredit Marstellar speaks more about you than him. Like I said earlier, I have no problem with Snyder being # 1, but your anti Martsellar stance is a little too much

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could be wrong, but I never saw one poster say he was sick in the Dake or Jenkins matches. Other excuses may have been given by some, but none of which apply to this topic of him being sick for the match in question. And Hatchett is no Dake or even Jenkins for that matter. Stay on point.

 

Based upon everything known, it becomes apparent the sickness affected him. You can call that speculating, but it is the most reasonable conclusion based upon everything known that I think most would agree on. You'd seem to argue otherwise until Taylor himself came on here and posted that was the case. Maybe not, you might need him to expand on the level of sickness or doubt him because he wasn't diagnosed by a doctor...lmao.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Taylor was very sick for the first Hatchett match. This is a FACT. I was there and could see he looked horrible walking out to the mat. It was confirmed by VERY RELIABLE SOURCES the next day that he was very sick with the flue. As further confirmation, DT won by TF the next time they faced each other. So superold, that ends that discussion because you do not have ANY FACTS on the matter, just your hater opinion so take your own advise and stop speculating on things you don't have information on. I mean you keep demanding everyone else to justify their opinion while you act like your opinion is a fact instead of the ramblings of a senile old man.

 

Okay, you say he was sick fine. I'll accept that and your sources although you don't say who they are. Where you may go to far is to say that the ncaa finals months later confirms that he was sick. That's certainly not a fact. And no, that doesn't end the discussion. I already gave a few reasons why the second match could have been different from the first. We don't know which one of those reasons played a bigger role than the other. If you can't say for sure, then you'd have to admit you are just stating your opinion as well. You may want to say that you have facts on your side and I don't, but the fact is, you're engaging in speculation. That's true no matter if you want to admit it or not. Declaring something a fact doesn't make it a fact. You know that. Also, how is my opinion a "hater opinion"? Please explain.

 

And where did I act as if my opinion was a fact? Where? I've already pointed out where you did the very thing your accusing me of! Can you do the same?

 

 

 

In regard to Marsteller, you are like a bad comedy routine. The guy has accomplished so much yet you want to diminish his high school career at every turn and focus on his only bad tournament that was with college guys where he was VERY SICK - FACT. He has defeated numerous highly ranked wrestlers, state champions & division I recruits - FACT. He recently defeated an Olympian as he won an international tournament against senior wrestlers - FACT. He is P4P #1 by objective rankers- FACT.

 

 

How am I diminishing his career. I've heard him being compared to Kolat so many times, and I'm just curious how this is possible. I see no evidence to put Chance and Kolat in the same category. None. How do you know he was "VERY SICK"? Or better yet, the severity of his sickness and what EXACT ROLE IT HAD ON THE OUTCOME OF THE MATCH? It's so easy to just make assertions without backing them up like you do. Anyone can do that.

 

Can you be clear, you are saying that the biggest reason that Chance lost two matches to college wrestlers was because he was sick? And is that how EVERYONE should treat those matches? Please answer.

 

And there are many people who don't believe Chance is #1 P4P. There are some who give it to Synder since he won the Junior Worlds and beat at least one very respectable collegiate wrestler in the process of making the team. For you to say that they are biased when that is something Chance has not done seems more biased than anything I've seen here.

 

"How do you know he was "VERY SICK"? Or better yet, the severity of his sickness and what EXACT ROLE IT HAD ON THE OUTCOME OF THE MATCH? It's so easy to just make assertions without backing them up like you do. Anyone can do that." .....this is comical from you as again you offer no facts to support your opinion that his illness didn't affect his wrestling and just expect others to prove theirs. Ok, just this once:

 

Marsteller himself said he was sick and that it affected his wrestling. Furthermore, people at the event posted he was ill and not 100%. Then consider that he has had extreme success at every other tournament he has participated in. Now, lets put the ball is in your court to prove that his being sick didn't affect his wrestling. Now keep in mind, your opinion isn't a fact when you respond and you need to come up with actual proof that this isn't true. An example would be "well I was there and I heard him say I feel great" or "I can prove chance ran a marathon the day after the tournament" AGAIN, your opinion doesn't mean anything and simply saying Chance was lying without proof that he has a history being dishonest isn't evidence of anything and just your opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Snyder has to be #1, assuming he's still eligible. A decent argument could be made for either Marstellar or Pico at #2, but I'd have Marstellar at 2 and Pico at 3.

 

Given that all 3 guys basically destroy all their high school competition, I think you need to look at how they've performed against guys at the next level to make a judgment call. Who, objectively, has fared better more the "usual" high school competition -- particuarly against established (usually non-high school) competition, or top international competition, in their weight class?

 

If we're not going to do that, then all we're doing is playing favorites.

 

Its not easy to do that with these three, as none of them have recently tested themselves against senior-level competition to the point of actually losing. That makes it hard to define the current ceiling for any of them. But still, while I would have had Chance #1 last year, I think Snyder's accomplishments this past year jump him ahead of Chance, and Pico has tightend the race.

 

Snyder won junior worlds. That is a BIG deal, especially at such a high weight class at the younger end of eligability. No other high schooler has an accomplishment that comes close to that. The guys at junior worlds are usually just a year or two away from being senior level reps, and the best of them often win international-level senior events the same year. By comparsison, teammate Alex Dieringer (NCAA 3rd) couldn't win his weight, and studs like Jordan Oliver and Logan Steiber couldn't win there either. Snyder won by tech in the finals, and the Russian that Snyder beat earlier (Malachmagomedov) had come off a tight match at Russian nationals with Gatsalov, a Russian legend. Arguably that means Snyder is a threat NOW to be the #1 guy in the US, especially with Varner on hiatus. Hopefully Snyder will enter some international tournaments this year to give a better indication of where he's at, but the junior title, against the competition he faced and at that age, has to put him up very high in any ranking.

 

Marstellar took the post-season off last year. His best wins were Wiercioch and Peppelman, both top high schoolers, and before that he went far at Cadet Worlds before injury. But the "problem" with Marstellar for ranking purposes has always been a lack of marquis wins over "guys he shouldn't beat", i.e. top senior-level guys, all-americans, etc. He took a step in correcting that in beating Francisco Soler last month, the 2012 Olympic Rep for Puerto Rico. But its kind of a double-edged sword: Soler's list of quality wins is very thin, and the score was close. Similarly, while its impressive that Marsteller beat a NWCA champ (Martinez) in the finals of that same tournament, you can also look at it the other way, and say a one-takedown win (2-0) against a non-NCAA kid wrestling for Central Florida only goes so far in advancing a P4P argument. For all he's done, Marstellar hasn't done something on the level of winning a junior world title.

 

Pico took steps forward in winning a cadet world title and winning double FILA junior titles. One could fairly argue that should jump him ahead of Marstellar, who lost at those same events the year before (albeit with clear injury in the former, and with illness in the latter). But without getting into that illness issue, Pico still has the same "problem" as Marstellar in that its hard to point to a single marquis win. Cadet worlds are a far cry from junior worlds, and Pico won FILA juniors at a non-contested weight where none of his competition had a notable resume. So he's actually very similar to Marstellar in that he consistently wins, and consistently has a high margin of victory, but its hard to know just how good he is without having faced a truly elite opponent. I give an edge to Marstellar for doing essentialy the same thing as Pico but for longer and against a broader spectrum of opponents.

 

Bottom line: Putting aside my subjective opinion of who's "better" or who will have the stronger career in the long run, the actual results show that Snyder is furthest along. Edge to Marstellar after that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dude you are a piece of work. He finishes the TD right when the buzzer hits. All of the offensive attempts were initiated by Chance, and he simply ran out of time on the last attempt. I am not a FS guru, but I don't think the points are awarded when his hands hit. I believe it has to be a knee hitting. Either way, the effort that you expend to discredit Marstellar speaks more about you than him. Like I said earlier, I have no problem with Snyder being # 1, but your anti Martsellar stance is a little too much

 

The takedown didn't count, so I personally don't see the need to bring it up. What does the fact the most of the offensive attempts were initiated by Chance have to do with anything? At the time his elbow hits (I should have said elbow) the points were awarded. Unfortunately, he landed on awkwardly, but once it hits the period is decided.

 

And it's completely false that I'm expending effort to discredit Marstellar. I have spent exactly 0 amount of time trying to do such a thing. Just because that's how you choose to categorize my posts doesn't make it so. I don't have an anti Marstellar stance in the least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Marsteller himself said he was sick and that it affected his wrestling. Furthermore, people at the event posted he was ill and not 100%. Then consider that he has had extreme success at every other tournament he has participated in. Now, lets put the ball is in your court to prove that his being sick didn't affect his wrestling. Now keep in mind, your opinion isn't a fact when you respond and you need to come up with actual proof that this isn't true. An example would be "well I was there and I heard him say I feel great" or "I can prove chance ran a marathon the day after the tournament" AGAIN, your opinion doesn't mean anything and simply saying Chance was lying without proof that he has a history being dishonest isn't evidence of anything and just your opinion.

 

Yes, Marstellar said he was sick and that affected his wrestling. The question is, to what degree? How sick was he. I never said that he wasn't sick, I only question to what degree and how that affected the actual result. There's no KNOW WAY TO KNOW if his sickness was the main reason he lost, or that his sickness was more significant than any other ailment that many wrestlers pick up throughout training. That's what I've been consistently been saying. For some reason, you seem to think that I've said that he wasn't sick at all and that it played no roll whatsoever. I didn't say that FlyingTiger.

 

Now, lets put the ball is in your court to prove that his being sick didn't affect his wrestling.

 

I don't have to prove anything because I never said he wasn't sick. I'm not too concerned with how he felt. I'm concerned with what happened on the mat. He was able to wrestle a tough 3 period match with Rhoads and get in on numerous shots, but not finish. There were plenty of opportunities for him to win. Including a deep shot very late in the third period that he didn't convert. The match was very similar to the Weircoch match in that way.

 

Then consider that he has had extreme success at every other tournament he has participated in.

 

I'll consider that those tournaments were against other HS kids. Two different levels of competition. As far as I'm aware, he didn't really have great success against wrestlers outside of HS until recently.

 

 

Now keep in mind, your opinion isn't a fact when you respond and you need to come up with actual proof that this isn't true. An example would be "well I was there and I heard him say I feel great" or "I can prove chance ran a marathon the day after the tournament" AGAIN, your opinion doesn't mean anything and simply saying Chance was lying without proof that he has a history being dishonest isn't evidence of anything and just your opinion.

 

I know the difference between opinion and fact FlyingTiger. I never said that Chance was lying. That is nothing more than a statement that you have imputed to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I heard Hatchett was sick the 2nd time he wrestled Taylor. Otherwise it would have been just as close as the 1st time.

 

Really?

 

I have a future multi part series coming in the college section on David Taylor's legacy. Since everyone is so concerned with wrestler's physical condition going into matches, I assume it will be easily accepted that Kyle Dake wasn't 100% going into the ncaa finals. I guess we'll see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NJWC, rankings are subjective for sure, but it is a fact that unbiased rankers have him #1.

 

Of course they do. But, are you saying that every ranker that doesn't have him #1 is biased?

 

If I wanted to say that then that's what I would have said. Since I didn't say that, you can conclude that I didn't intend to say that. It sounds like you are arguing for arguments sake. I did intend to say that.

 

Here are some facts about Chance Marstellar.

 

1) Willie at flo has him P4P #1

2) To the best of my knowledge Chance has never lost to a h.s. wrestler, even when entering meets as an 8th grader.

3) Chance has beaten so many state champions I have lost count. Most of those state champions Chance has majored, teched and pinned.

 

Let me ask you a question. What more does Chance have to do to gain your respect ???

 

 

Why do you assume that I don't respect Marstellar? When did I say that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I have no problem with Snyder being ranked number 1 (and by the way WHO CARES! - it'll all come out in the wash), what I don't respect is the weight class.

 

220/285 are populated by football players looking for something to do or being dragged on to the mat by a desperate wrestling coach. There are far fewer quality wrestlers at those upper weights than there are at any of the lower weights.

 

Snyder dominates up there and he's absolutely great. But Pico and Marsteller face consistently better competition week to week.

 

I'm sure the worlds provided plenty of great wrestlers in those stratospheric weight classes, but... my position remains unchanged.

 

It's hard for me to equate what happens wrestling-wise at 285 with what happens at 126 or 170. It's almost not even the same sport.

 

Just my humble opion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"For some reason, you seem to think that I've said that he wasn't sick at all and that it played no roll whatsoever. I didn't say that"

 

 

So you agree he wasn't 100% ...............CHECKMATE.

 

I thought you were here for a serious exchange? You didn't respond to any of my points. Like I said, there's no way to know how his sickness affected the match. It may not have had a significant impact.

 

And if he was 99.9999% would that change how you currently view those matches FlyingTiger?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
While I have no problem with Snyder being ranked number 1 (and by the way WHO CARES! - it'll all come out in the wash), what I don't respect is the weight class.

 

220/285 are populated by football players looking for something to do or being dragged on to the mat by a desperate wrestling coach. There are far fewer quality wrestlers at those upper weights than there are at any of the lower weights.

 

Snyder dominates up there and he's absolutely great. But Pico and Marsteller face consistently better competition week to week.

 

I'm sure the worlds provided plenty of great wrestlers in those stratospheric weight classes, but... my position remains unchanged.

 

It's hard for me to equate what happens wrestling-wise at 285 with what happens at 126 or 170. It's almost not even the same sport.

 

Just my humble opinion.

 

oldcougar, I totally agree that 220 is a thin weight at the high school level... and that as a result, your average elite 220lber is facing weaker competition than elite guys at most other weights.

 

But for ranking purposes all that really means is that you have a smaller number of "quality wins" to consider. It can't possibly mean that a guy can't be best P4P merely because he has less competition.

 

Consider this thought exercise: What would these forums be saying about Thomas Haines right now if Kyle Snyder didn't exist?

 

My guess is that Haines would be talked about constantly, with threads about him possibly being the best PA high school upperweight ever (4x champ, no losses since freshman year), constant bickering about who's better between him and Marstellar, and consideration as the top P4P recruit. But with Snyder's lopsided wins over him, Haines is more of an afterthought in these discussions.

 

What if Haines really *is* as good as his accomplishments suggests, but Snyder is just that much better?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
While I have no problem with Snyder being ranked number 1 (and by the way WHO CARES! - it'll all come out in the wash), what I don't respect is the weight class.

 

220/285 are populated by football players looking for something to do or being dragged on to the mat by a desperate wrestling coach. There are far fewer quality wrestlers at those upper weights than there are at any of the lower weights.

 

Snyder dominates up there and he's absolutely great. But Pico and Marsteller face consistently better competition week to week.

 

I'm sure the worlds provided plenty of great wrestlers in those stratospheric weight classes, but... my position remains unchanged.

 

It's hard for me to equate what happens wrestling-wise at 285 with what happens at 126 or 170. It's almost not even the same sport.

 

 

Just my humble opion.

 

 

 

You have a point oldcougar about the weight class differences. My question is, if you feel so strongly about the competition between the different weights, how can you not have an issue with Snyder being ranked #1? You even go as far as to say that you don't even respect the weightclass!

 

Given the fact that you don't respect the weightclass and possibly the heavy majority of Snyder's opponents, how do you respect the fact that someone chooses to rank him #1? And how do you respect Snyder? If you don't respect most of his opponents, how can you respect the fact that he built his resume by beating them? Seems inconsistent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As an aside...

 

Jason Nolf should be in consideration for the top 10 P4P rankings. I believe his only loss in PA in his first 3 years was to a 4x champ, which he avenged by major decision later on.

 

His loss to Berger at Flonationals complicates this, but his last couple weeks have been impressive to say the least, with his dominant showing at Super 32 and then a convincing win over McKenna.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...