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RetiredPoster

I would love to see Burroughs vs ...........

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I don't know why it's so popular to say that Adam was a superior 74kg than Buvaisar. Adam couldn't beat Buvaisar. And Adam greatest middleweight? Based on what? What makes him better than his brother? Or Fadzaev, or Ardabili? I think we are taking his undisputed greatness a little too far.

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B Satiev could NOT make the team at 185 when he thought about trying. Sajidov beat him soundly in 04 so satiev went back to 163.

 

By this time, Sajidov was a different wrestler than he was in 2000 when he wrestled Adam. Sajidov was a world champion and one of the top guys in all weights after 2003 worlds.

 

I don't see how that result puts Adam ahead of Buvaisar and every other middleweight in history.

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Actually Sajidov was beating both Satievs in 03 and 04 when the russian team thought about switching them around because Adam started losing to Sajidov but Buvasia could not beat Sajidov either so what I am saying Adam never really got a chance to prove himself at his 163 weight because of big brother. Adam would have done the same thing B satiev did just ask Joe Williams.

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Actually Sajidov was beating both Satievs in 03 and 04 when the russian team thought about switching them around because Adam started losing to Sajidov but Buvasia could not beat Sajidov either so what I am saying Adam never really got a chance to prove himself at his 163 weight because of big brother. Adam would have done the same thing B satiev did just ask Joe Williams.

 

 

Exactly, Adam couldn't "prove himself" because of his brother. From all that I've ever heard, Adam couldn't get the better of Buvaisar. Sure, he may not have showed up at trials at 74 kg. But there was never a time where he could outwrestle Buvaisar consistently. If there was, I never heard of it? Maybe you have. If so, I'd like to hear about it.

 

You're right, Sajidov could beat both Saitievs by 2003-2004, so it's not like we can prove that Adam could beat someone that Buvaisar couldn't. Beating Sajidov in 2000 is not the same as beating him in 2003.

 

It's hard to so easily give a wrestler about 5 plus more Olympic and World titles, yet you do this so easily. You also do this somewhat regularly. And the Joe Williams result isn't the only result. I could just as easily say that Adam wouldn't have been as good as Buvaisar just ask Leipold. Leipold did beat Adam once and he never beat Buvaisar.

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I don't think anyone is calling Adam the greatest middleweight ever. I do think he had the greatest single season in recent memory though.

 

I was responding to PRyan who said that. You're right, he did have an amazing season. The best in recent memory? You mean since 2000? He has a great argument for that distinction.

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Mr. Burroughs would have troubles with Mr. Leipold as he was a very clever and saavy wrestler.

 

Watch the match where he defeated Mr. Slay to win the olympic gold medal.

 

During the clinch he does a great acting job like Slay isn't tying up the clinch properly and it fakes out the ref to penalize Slay.

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I think he beats Schultz pretty convincingly. Too fast, too strong, especially under current rules minimizing par terre. I'm not much of an expert on Leipold, but I think he's more of a counter wrestler. I could see Burroughs winning an ugly, low scoring bout.

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I agree Adam Satiev was the best 74k ever even though he only won three titles-starting at 149 then going to 187 because of his multi time champ brother and simply dominating. But I think that Adam was the best middleweight ever at any one time. Jordan may get there but I agree can he go up a weight and dominate guys like Cael, Aldatov and Sharipov-I don't think so either. I know he did dominate Gavin though so he is close to being able to win 84 but I doubt we will ever get to see a Aldatov or Sharipov match.

 

Cael beat Adam, so why would JB have to dominate him for you to give JB a chance vs Adam?

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Schultz and Leipold were both far superior, technically to JB and both would have given him fits. Leipold was an amazing wrestler and I believe won the FILA's Most Technical Award...

 

Let me say...I love JB and he is a great kid..nothing personal and not trolling, just throwing some stuff out there.

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They were both far superior to JB? Not just more technical but far superior? I know Dave was a master technician and student of the game but that still seems off to me. JB is in the running to become one of the best wrestlers of all time from any nation. He is undefeated with 3 World/Olympic titles and his technique and instincts are adapting and improving every time he steps out on the mat.

 

And JB didn't have to win by cheating ala Leipold.

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Your right Cael did beat Adam. Forgot about that. But Adam started with a title at 149!!! Cael beat him 4-3 in a tight match despite weighing 175 maybe. Adam almost made the 2012 Olympic team losing to surgush in the finals in a very close match at 35 years old, three year layoff and many injuries. Adam just didnt get a chance like he should have. Top much bigger world champs like Sajodov and Ketoev emerged when Adam started aging but even then I think he wins 163 all the way through 2008. So bottom line I would have loved to have seen a 2000 A Satiev vs Burroughs not B Satiev. Burroughs though is the best of them all, ever!!! Hopefully we can get a Sharipov vs Burroughs-heard he is going back to 185.

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Your right Cael did beat Adam. Forgot about that. But Adam started with a title at 149!!! Cael beat him 4-3 in a tight match despite weighing 175 maybe. Adam almost made the 2012 Olympic team losing to surgush in the finals in a very close match at 35 years old, three year layoff and many injuries. Adam just didnt get a chance like he should have. Top much bigger world champs like Sajodov and Ketoev emerged when Adam started aging but even then I think he wins 163 all the way through 2008. So bottom line I would have loved to have seen a 2000 A Satiev vs Burroughs not B Satiev. Burroughs though is the best of them all, ever!!! Hopefully we can get a Sharipov vs Burroughs-heard he is going back to 185.

 

When did Adam win a title at 149? How do you figure that Adam weighed only 175 when he wrestled Cael? Adam had been wrestling major competitions at 185 for 4 years at the time he wrestled Cael.

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They were both far superior to JB? Not just more technical but far superior? I know Dave was a master technician and student of the game but that still seems off to me. JB is in the running to become one of the best wrestlers of all time from any nation. He is undefeated with 3 World/Olympic titles and his technique and instincts are adapting and improving every time he steps out on the mat.

 

And JB didn't have to win by cheating ala Leipold.

 

Yes, both Schultz and Leipold were techically superior to JB.

 

BTW, Leipold didn't knowingly cheat.

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They were both far superior to JB? Not just more technical but far superior? I know Dave was a master technician and student of the game but that still seems off to me. JB is in the running to become one of the best wrestlers of all time from any nation. He is undefeated with 3 World/Olympic titles and his technique and instincts are adapting and improving every time he steps out on the mat.

 

And JB didn't have to win by cheating ala Leipold.

 

Yes, both Schultz and Leipold were techically superior to JB.

 

BTW, Leipold didn't knowingly cheat.

 

I don't see clear evidence of Leipold being technically superior to JB. Why do you say that?

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They were both far superior to JB? Not just more technical but far superior? I know Dave was a master technician and student of the game but that still seems off to me. JB is in the running to become one of the best wrestlers of all time from any nation. He is undefeated with 3 World/Olympic titles and his technique and instincts are adapting and improving every time he steps out on the mat.

 

And JB didn't have to win by cheating ala Leipold.

 

Yes, both Schultz and Leipold were techically superior to JB.

 

BTW, Leipold didn't knowingly cheat.

 

I don't see clear evidence of Leipold being technically superior to JB. Why do you say that?

 

I agree. And I'd add Schultz to that list. If Burroughs never stepped on the mat again, he'd have had a better career than both of them. And let's not forget Burroughs beat Tsargush twice, who would be a 5 timer without Burroughs. Finally, Burroughs has yet to lose. Until he loses, we don't really know what it takes to beat him. And until we know that, you can't really say whether Schultz or Leipold had what it would take to beat him. I get that we like to idealize the past, the reality is Burroughs is one of the best wrestlers we've ever had.

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Schultz was one of the most, if not the most, technically skilled wrestler the US has seen. Won with a tremendous amount of varied techniques, that was his strong point along with physical strength. Burroughs is incredible but he's not winning on superior technique. I'd take Burroughs over most, I might draw the line at a B Saitiev in his prime. Slay and Joe Williams were both able to take down Saitiev with power doubles though so you never know. If JB wins two more worlds and another Olympics in this fashion he likely has to be considered best ever.

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Schultz was one of the most, if not the most, technically skilled wrestler the US has seen. Won with a tremendous amount of varied techniques, that was his strong point along with physical strength. Burroughs is incredible but he's not winning on superior technique. I'd take Burroughs over most, I might draw the line at a B Saitiev in his prime. Slay and Joe Williams were both able to take down Saitiev with power doubles though so you never know. If JB wins two more worlds and another Olympics in this fashion he likely has to be considered best ever.

 

If we're talking neutral, I'll take Burroughs's technique over Schultz's any day.

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Watch those videos of Kenny Monday blasting through Dave Schultz. Burroughs wouldn't throw him like Monday does, but I think JB wins off speed and explosiveness in a similar manner. Leipold was a counter wrestler... I see Burroughs winning a cautious, tactical match 3 takedowns to 1 or so.

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