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cael sanderson on askren / agon

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since you know caels goal would you please share it with the rest of us?

 

I'm making some subtle points, so let me go back to what I originally said.

 

[T]he question is, What goals in Cael furthering here? ... Based on these tweets [mocking Agon], Cael's goals are not good for wrestling as a whole. If Agon succeeds, it will make wrestling more popular, and it will have a positive effect on scholastic wrestling in a few ways. (1) Programs will be less likely to be cut. (2) A more mainstream presence for wrestling will make kids more likely to participate. (3) A professional organization will encourage top college wrestlers to continue training after college, which will lead to more competition for spots on world and Olympic teams.

 

In my summary of what I said, I was incorporating my response to superold, who wrote the following:

 

Maybe Cael believes that we need to come up with a better way for our guys to get paid. Maybe he wants a way for our guys to get paid actually training for the international styles. That's the way it is in those other countries.

 

I get that my quick summary could cause confusion. I hope you're clear about my points now.

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Ok then, you tell me what Cael is saying. Why is Agon not a legitimate test of who the better wrestler is?

 

I gave a possible explanation. Maybe he isn't against something like Agon, maybe he simply disagrees with the focus of that Agon has.

 

As for why some may not feel Agon is not a legitimate test of who the better wrestler is. Well, the fact that Agon is new and very few have trained specifically for Agon's rules? Tons of wrestlers peak for the trials and ncaas, but how many for Agon? Did any of the wrestler's train for Agon with the same intensity as they did for the ncaas? Did Stephen Abas, Wright, Oliver, Palmer, etc. make all the sacrifices for Agon that they did for the ncaas? Was the passion there? I can't say for sure, but given how new Agon is, I doubt that the wrestlers had the same desire to be successful in Agon as they did on the ncaa or international stage. I wonder if any of the losers underwent a tough practice a day after their Agon loss the way many do after a loss in the ncaa finals? I'd guess not, but I could be wrong.

 

With all that said, I'm not sure it's been established that Cael views Agon the way you think he does. Maybe there are more quotes that I haven't seen? Are there any more?

 

So if Burroughs goes to a tournament in Armenia that he didn't train for as hard as he would for the world tournament, and Burroughs loses there, the loss is not legitimate? I would argue that with money on the line, and with the potential to be paid for future matches, these guys were adequately prepared for the event.

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Ok then, you tell me what Cael is saying. Why is Agon not a legitimate test of who the better wrestler is?

 

I gave a possible explanation. Maybe he isn't against something like Agon, maybe he simply disagrees with the focus of that Agon has.

 

As for why some may not feel Agon is not a legitimate test of who the better wrestler is. Well, the fact that Agon is new and very few have trained specifically for Agon's rules? Tons of wrestlers peak for the trials and ncaas, but how many for Agon? Did any of the wrestler's train for Agon with the same intensity as they did for the ncaas? Did Stephen Abas, Wright, Oliver, Palmer, etc. make all the sacrifices for Agon that they did for the ncaas? Was the passion there? I can't say for sure, but given how new Agon is, I doubt that the wrestlers had the same desire to be successful in Agon as they did on the ncaa or international stage. I wonder if any of the losers underwent a tough practice a day after their Agon loss the way many do after a loss in the ncaa finals? I'd guess not, but I could be wrong.

 

With all that said, I'm not sure it's been established that Cael views Agon the way you think he does. Maybe there are more quotes that I haven't seen? Are there any more?

 

So if Burroughs goes to a tournament in Armenia that he didn't train for as hard as he would for the world tournament, and Burroughs loses there, the loss is not legitimate? I would argue that with money on the line, and with the potential to be paid for future matches, these guys were adequately prepared for the event.

 

Okay, make that argument. Though I think it's beside the point. Maybe the intent of Cael's post was to say that "if you really want to call someone out, do it at a place where everyone is planning to be in peak condition mentally and physically and not at a place with far less prestige". Right now, that place is the trials.

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Honestly, I think since Cael opened his mouth he and Askren should settle it on the mat. I really do. Catch weight of course. It's easy for anyone to run their mouth, more difficult to take the mat and back it up.

 

Do you think Askren would stand a chance?

 

I mean, Askren is an all time great, and I also happen to love what he is doing for the sport at the moment...but him and Cael settling it on the mat? I think that ends in a loss for Askren every time.

 

Love him or hate him and what he believes, lets not forget who Cael is, and exactly how good he was.

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Settle it on the mat?!?

 

That's an even dumber idea than Askren's original idea. Besides, Cael must go 215 by now.

 

I don't think Cael was trying to be funny with his first tweet. And he is not a funny guy. But his first tweet makes a good and serious point.

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PA-Fan-Sorry it took so long to get back to you here. I hadn't checked in on this thread in a bit. I'd pick Cael every time. I still stand by what I said. I bet Askren doesn't pick Cael. I know Cael is bigger, that's why I said catch weight. We all know Cael can make a catch weight. I said I wasn't interested in seeing Askren vs. Varner because Varner simply IS too damn big. Cael can get down enough to get to a fair catch weight. But in answer to your question I personally would still pick Cael and I CERTAINLY want to see this settled on the mat.

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Ben and Chris Pendleton have been mysterious at the next level. This is a fun time to be a wrestling fan. A lot of guys you have watched AA are now making a lot of money. Wrestling may have another pro wrestling, which if nothing else promises to make it, because it is giving us matches we want to see. Agreed, they can do better, but this is a beginning. It's not like some eccentric heir is footing the bills. I believe it to be a positive that we have another venue for exposure and marketability.

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Are you bring sarcastic? Cael was never a fighter, never even hinted at wanting to fight as far as I can remember.

 

Wrestlers getting paid and having people talk about the sport is GREAT for wrestling. Having the people behind AGON be in control of a popular wrestling organization? Not so good for the sport in my opinion. You bring in many of those same ideas and rules with the TourACW guys to run the show and that is something special.

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By that logic there should be no professional boxing, and all of MMA consists of exhibitions.

 

What we have here is an American wrestling icon publicly belittling an attempt to make wrestling more popular. Awesome. (Sarcasm.) I'm beginning to think wrestling deserves to disappear.

 

BTW, Ben Askren is already more famous than Cael Sanderson. It's not hard to see why. Cael was a great wrestler and runs a very-high-caliber college program, but one wonders how culturally narrow he is.

 

Raised a mormon in closeted Utah, Cael is doing well now compared to the State he came from. He has benefitted greatly by exposure to normal people outside the insular and inbred society he came from. Not saying he has rid himself of all of it but he's doing well.

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Cael is wrong and short-sighted here, just like I think he (and Tom Brands) were short-sighted in their treatment of the Duals proposal.

 

Even if you don't like what's actually being done here, the fact that ANYTHING exists to pay wrestlers beyond college is better than what we had. You can't just say "this sucks, let's make fun of it" without offering any solution other than "it only really matters if you continued to stick to our old system" which is what he's insinuating.

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yeah im not feeling cael on this one. more wrestling is good. a living legend dumping on a new PAYING wrestling venture looks petty and narrow minded.

 

if cael wants to encourage askren to give the us team trials another go, which i also think would be awesome, there are much better ways of doing it then some hacky tweets.

 

ultimately not a big deal tho.

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Cael is always quick to judge other peoples ideas of "what is good for wrestling", but I don't see him offering up any other suggestions.

 

Wrestling needs more activists like J Robinson and John Smith.

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Cael is always quick to judge other peoples ideas of "what is good for wrestling", but I don't see him offering up any other suggestions.

 

Wrestling needs more activists like J Robinson and John Smith.

 

People have been judging Cael for what they think he wants for wrestling. He simply joked about an event where one of his wrestlers lost. Thats all.

 

What does J. Rob or JS do as a coach that Cael doesn't?

 

Maybe because both of them aren't the 3 time defending champs they aren't being vilified as much.

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I wish Askren would show up at the trails or nationals. He could wrestle all the big studs in one day. I just don't get the twitter warrior thing, maybe it comes from MMA but it just feels like meaningless, unnecessary talk. As for Sanderson, he's not as funny as he thinks he is but I didn't think his comments were harmful.

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Cael is always quick to judge other peoples ideas of "what is good for wrestling", but I don't see him offering up any other suggestions.

 

Wrestling needs more activists like J Robinson and John Smith.

 

People have been judging Cael for what they think he wants for wrestling. He simply joked about an event where one of his wrestlers lost. Thats all.

 

What does J. Rob or JS do as a coach that Cael doesn't?

 

Maybe because both of them aren't the 3 time defending champs they aren't being vilified as much.

 

Not referring to coaching, speaking more of the larger aspects of wrestling marketing, Title 9, change and growth. They see the big picture of college wrestling's future and that change needs to occur and are actively involved in that process.

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