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Is Dake at 165 for the season?

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2. I love how people continually bring up Olympic trials when we are discussing the upcoming NCAA season.

 

Learn to embrace it dude. Because it matters. It matters because wrestling needs it. It needs to be known as an Olympic sport within an athletic department. This is a vital component for survival.

 

Im all for that...I am a huge fan of freestyle and completely agree with this point.

 

But that does not mean that because Caldwell "looked better" at the Trials than Taylor did...therefore he can rationally be considered a favorite or equal in the upcoming folkstyle season. Nonsense!

 

*Especially when you consider their NCAA accomplishments side by side.

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If I could interject, all I was saying is Caldwell is good. Jesus christ, set of a s**t storm cause I said a guy who wrestled Burroughs to a 1 point match was not as good as Burroughs. I said I'd pick him 3rd. Caldwell is a good wrestler, PERIOD.

 

Here, I'll start a real argument for ya. Caldwell has seen better competition over the course of his career than Taylor has. Oh yes I just did!!!

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In sum, I did not say Caldwell was favored. I did say he deserves a seat at the table based on what he did as a true freshman, a sophomore, and during his olympic redshirt. I also know that Olympic Trials performances do matter to college wrestling. If Caldwell beats Taylor, good. If Taylor beats Caldwell, just as good. If Dake beats them all, I'm still cool with that.

 

You keep calling out biases but you're blinded by your own.

 

You are the one who jumped into this debate, I didnt pull you into it or call you out.

 

It was started by BRGuy saying "i think taylor hasnt done anything to show that he is anywhere near howes level and dake is only slightly better. caldwell beat howe and we can all talk about being injured or whatever excuse but the reality is that caldwell was one of the best that year and he looked mighty good in iowa city too." This clearly suggests that Taylor has done nothing to be considered on the level of Howe (or anywhere near it) and Caldwell, by beating Howe, is and should be considered on Howe's level. Simple logic says that this, in BRGuy's opinion, puts Caldwell as not only on the level of Taylor and Dake, but above Taylor. This, in one word, is just laughable.

 

That is the point I was addressing when you jumped in.

 

As for me being biased...also laughable. Wrestler A has a career record of 70-1 in two seasons, 1 NCAA Title, 1 2nd place, and a hodge trophy. Wrestler B has a career record of 64-20, with a 2nd place and a 5th place finish at the NCAAs.

 

Please explain how me stating that wrestler B can not and should not be considered on the level of wrestler A in folkstyle is biased...

 

I am the one going by the facts and evidence. I don't ignore the fact that Caldwell looked better at the Trials, it just holds much less weight that the other evidence that we have in folkstyle...which is what we are discussing incase you forgot.

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He wrestled the quarters, semis, and finals without scoring a takedown. That's two of the three days of the tournament with no offensive points. He scored three takedowns the whole tournament...

 

 

On the other hand, how could I possibly ignore this?

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Dake and Taylor are clearly #1 and #2.

 

Asper has 2 AA years and back

Caldwell has 2 AA years and back

Yates has 2AA years and back

 

That is 5 guys who have been All Americans a total of 11 times at one weight. WOW is all I can say...

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You can't discount the fact that Caldwell saw brutal competition in his true freshman year.

 

I don't discount that. But I feel it is totally irrelevant to the conversation we are having.

 

I find it hard to believe that people would not pick Taylor at 165 last season over guys like Alex Meade, Dan Valimont, Nick Amuchastagi, even John Reader...at 165 3 years ago. These are the guys I remember Caldwell losing to. Granted, they are studs and that is a tough lineup to face, especially as a true freshman...but we are discussing Taylor now and Caldwell now...so talking about 3 years ago doesnt seem like it makes much sense to me.

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Dake and Taylor are clearly #1 and #2.

 

Asper has 2 AA years and back

Caldwell has 2 AA years and back

Yates has 2AA years and back

 

That is 5 guys who have been All Americans a total of 11 times at one weight. WOW is all I can say...

 

To be fair, and show Im not biased against Caldwell...It should look more like this:

 

1. Dake

2. Taylor *Although I think Taylor will win out eventually, I can't argue Dake being favored at this point. 3 for 3 champ and a freestyle win and all.

 

3. Caldwell.

 

 

4. Asper

5. Yates

 

The gaps are put in purposely. Caldwell seems to be above Asper/Yates and should be a clear #3.

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caldwells losses

 

 

 

 

10/30/2009 Toal, Zach Missouri 165 L DEC 8-May 3rd

11/8/2009 Meade, Alex Oklahoma State 165 L DEC 5-Feb 2nd

11/14/2009 Reader, Jonathan Iowa State 165 L FALL 4:07 3rd

12/1/2009 Meade, Alex Oklahoma State 165 L DEC 5-Jan

12/4/2009 Howe, Andrew Wisconsin 165 L DEC 6-Jan dnp

12/4/2009 Gillespie, Paul Hofstra 165 L DEC 2-Jan dnp

1/9/2010 Galante, Dennis Lehigh 165 L DEC 6-May

1/9/2010 Vallimont, Dan Penn State 165 L DEC 6-Apr

1/22/2010 Reader, Jonathan Iowa State 165 L TF 4 - 19 ()

2/6/2010 Marable, Nick Missouri 165 L DEC 8-May

2/21/2010 Meade, Alex Oklahoma State 165 L DEC 6-Feb

3/6/2010 Reader, Jonathan Iowa State 165 L DEC 6-Feb 3rd

3/18/2010 Andrew Howe Wisconsin 165 L DEC 4-Jan -1

3/18/2010 Nick Amuchastegui Stanford 165 L DEC 6-Jan -1

 

 

12/3/2010 Lewnes, Mack Cornell 174 L DEC 2 - 5 4th

12/3/2010 Covington, Colby Oregon State 174 L DEC 3 - 5 4th

12/29/2010 Spangler, Chris Iowa St 165 L DEC 1 - 2

1/28/2011 Burroughs, Jordan Nebraska 165 L DEC 3 - 7

3/5/2011 Burroughs, Jordan Nebraska 165 L DEC 1 - 2 2nd

3/17/2011 Burroughs, Jordan Nebraska 165 L MD 3 - 11 -1

 

 

 

are we comparing careers or talking about who could be a better wrestler right now? taylors sheltered redshirt freshmen year helped him transition and protected his record in a way that dake and caldwell didnt have but we arent talking about career it is all about who has shown that they could take the title and taylor ranked third makes sense to me after watching all the guys wrestle.

 

but hey at least you penn staters can sleep well knowing that he won the hodge since you all claim that is proof he is the best

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Wow. Check out my post above when you want to trot out all those names from Caldwell's loss column.

 

If you are going with the Taylor was sheltered / didn't face tough competition, etc. argument...that falls apart in a second when you match Taylor up last season (at 165) against any of those names on that list above (with the exception of *Burroughs). None of them has a legit chance against Taylor, he beats them all, again with the exception of Burroughs. Be serious.

 

It's funny how you had no respone to back up this claim you made earlier " taylor hasnt done anything to show that he is anywhere near howes level"

 

That is one of the most off the wall posts I have ever seen.

 

Edit: I will back track a bit, and adjust saying that none on the list have a chance to beat Taylor...there are some that would have a chance. None would be favored though...

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caldwell and taylor entered college at the same time. yes taylor probably was better when he entered the room for the first time but you are trying to compare taylor last year to caldwells first year.

 

i am looking at both of them right now. i think caldwell in the finals faced a tougher field than taylor last year and i think both have got better. you seem to assume that caldwell sat around this last year eating bonbons. i can tell you that he was training with studs and was getting better just like dake and taylor have been. the interesting thing is that taylor is the only one of the three to not spend a significant amount of time training with burroughs. i think dake and caldwell are both prepared to defend taylors attacks and can post wins over him.

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You would really say Caldwell is not all that much behind Burroughs senior year peak?

 

This is an interesting question, because the answer is drastically different based on what we know now versus if you took a poll in September 2010, just before Burroughs senior season. We might be able to go back and find some threads from back then, but many people, including myself, favored Howe in a matchup against Burroughs. Everyone knew Burroughs was good, but not many people really knew just how good yet. I thought Howe would be too strong to blast through. Their Midlands match proved me wrong, and Burroughs went on to become World Champ that very same year. Unbelievable. So no, Caldwell right now is nowhere near as good as Burroughs was then. But he is probably not far behind the level that Burroughs was perceived as being in September 2010, before we really saw him after he recovered from the knee injury. At that point it wasn't even clear if his knee was 100 percent.

 

I wouldn't favor Caldwell over Dake or Taylor, but I'm not really sure what to expect of him yet until I see some matches. He's very good, and has been wrestling freestyle against some very good competition for the last year. Dake does have a freestyle win over him though, but it was a pretty boring match if I remember correctly. And Caldwell is probably big enough to be a 174 if he wanted, so he may have a strength advantage over Taylor and Dake. I wouldn't be shocked to see him beat either of those two guys, although I think as far as matchups go, Dake's tie up skills probably match up better than Taylor's. Right now if they are all at the same weight I would rank them Dake, Taylor, Caldwell, but this could all change very early in the season once we see some matches.

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caldwell and taylor entered college at the same time. yes taylor probably was better when he entered the room for the first time but you are trying to compare taylor last year to caldwells first year.

 

i am looking at both of them right now. i think caldwell in the finals faced a tougher field than taylor last year and i think both have got better. you seem to assume that caldwell sat around this last year eating bonbons. i can tell you that he was training with studs and was getting better just like dake and taylor have been. the interesting thing is that taylor is the only one of the three to not spend a significant amount of time training with burroughs. i think dake and caldwell are both prepared to defend taylors attacks and can post wins over him.

 

I guess you either missed or chose to ignore when I said this "I am not saying he can't, I am not saying he couldn't, I am not saying he wont, and I am not saying he hasn't improved (I am in fact sure he has)...what I am saying is that he simply can not be considered equal or as a toss-up going into this season with Dake and/or Taylor. He just can't. He is #3 if they are all in the same weight, and that is where he should be."

 

You can think whatever you want, that is called and opinion and everyone is entitled to it, and it is valid. What you cannot do however, is try to say that Caldwell should be favored over Taylor, or ranked above Taylor, or any other way you want to phrase it...in a folkstyle season...when the vast majority of the evidence clearly suggests otherwise.

 

It is a very simple distinction to be made in my eyes:

- Say you think Caldwell can beat Taylor - fine.

- Say you think Caldwell's track record and folkstyle ability shows he should be considered above Taylor - complete and utter nonsense.

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You would really say Caldwell is not all that much behind Burroughs senior year peak?

 

This is an interesting question, because the answer is drastically different based on what we know now versus if you took a poll in September 2010, just before Burroughs senior season. We might be able to go back and find some threads from back then, but many people, including myself, favored Howe in a matchup against Burroughs. Everyone knew Burroughs was good, but not many people really knew just how good yet. I thought Howe would be too strong to blast through. Their Midlands match proved me wrong, and Burroughs went on to become World Champ that very same year. Unbelievable. So no, Caldwell right now is nowhere near as good as Burroughs was then. But he is probably not far behind the level that Burroughs was perceived as being in September 2010, before we really saw him after he recovered from the knee injury. At that point it wasn't even clear if his knee was 100 percent.

 

I wouldn't favor Caldwell over Dake or Taylor, but I'm not really sure what to expect of him yet until I see some matches. He's very good, and has been wrestling freestyle against some very good competition for the last year. Dake does have a freestyle win over him though, but it was a pretty boring match if I remember correctly. And Caldwell is probably big enough to be a 174 if he wanted, so he may have a strength advantage over Taylor and Dake. I wouldn't be shocked to see him beat either of those two guys, although I think as far as matchups go, Dake's tie up skills probably match up better than Taylor's. Right now if they are all at the same weight I would rank them Dake, Taylor, Caldwell, but this could all change very early in the season once we see some matches.

 

It is funny that I am being called out for being biased, etc. And this is the only point I was making the entire time!

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caldwell and taylor entered college at the same time. yes taylor probably was better when he entered the room for the first time but you are trying to compare taylor last year to caldwells first year.

 

i am looking at both of them right now. i think caldwell in the finals faced a tougher field than taylor last year and i think both have got better. you seem to assume that caldwell sat around this last year eating bonbons. i can tell you that he was training with studs and was getting better just like dake and taylor have been. the interesting thing is that taylor is the only one of the three to not spend a significant amount of time training with burroughs. i think dake and caldwell are both prepared to defend taylors attacks and can post wins over him.

 

I guess you either missed or chose to ignore when I said this "I am not saying he can't, I am not saying he couldn't, I am not saying he wont, and I am not saying he hasn't improved (I am in fact sure he has)...what I am saying is that he simply can not be considered equal or as a toss-up going into this season with Dake and/or Taylor. He just can't. He is #3 if they are all in the same weight, and that is where he should be."

 

You can think whatever you want, that is called and opinion and everyone is entitled to it, and it is valid. What you cannot do however, is try to say that Caldwell should be favored over Taylor, or ranked above Taylor, or any other way you want to phrase it...in a folkstyle season...when the vast majority of the evidence clearly suggests otherwise.

 

It is a very simple distinction to be made in my eyes:

- Say you think Caldwell can beat Taylor - fine.

- Say you think Caldwell's track record and folkstyle ability shows he should be considered above Taylor - complete and utter nonsense.

 

i can have an opinion as long as it doesnt clash with yours. got it.

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i can have an opinion as long as it doesnt clash with yours. got it.

 

You obviously dont understand the distinction between an opinion, and an assertion based on evidence.

 

Let me illustrate: I believe the sky is red. That is an opinion...I can believe it as strongly as I please...and nobody has the right to challenge me on that, it is a belief. The moment I start to assert that the sky actually is red (not blue), then people have the right to challenge me, and I am being totally unreasonable...being that the evidence overwhelmingly supports a blue sky.

 

 

In case the analogy wasnt clear enough: "I believe the sky is red" = I believe Caldwell can beat Taylor. "The sky is red, this is the truth!" = Caldwell should be favored over / ranked above Taylor.

 

Ill refer you to this one more time...

 

It is a very simple distinction to be made in my eyes:

- Say you think Caldwell can beat Taylor - fine.

- Say you think Caldwell's track record and folkstyle ability shows he should be considered above Taylor - complete and utter nonsense.

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In my opinion - caldwell has no shot against dake and taylor. asper and yates will lay it out each time and i would say he has about a 50% chance of beating either of them on a good day.

 

That brackets is tough so those 5 can ranked 1-5 but 3/4/5 = 50% of being an all american this year - good luck guys.

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The moment I start to assert that the sky actually is red (not blue), then people have the right to challenge me, and I am being totally unreasonable...

 

Unless it's sunrise or sunset. Or the Apocalypse.

 

Ill concede that haha

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go back to the last foklstyle season for both and caldwell beats howe and loses to an athlete that a few moths later is crowned the best in the world. who was taylors big win?

 

looking at this past year caldwell was banging heads with sr level athletes and competing at events like the sunkist kids international where he dropped a match to paulson. i know you dont want to look at freestyle since taylor lost to dake in freestyle but if you dont look at caldwells last year and include that you are ignoring a year of data while boosting taylors resume with his hodge season. there is no doubt that olympic years are slightly weaker due to the olympic redshirts. this past year caldwell was working with the best wrestler in the world. you can discount this past year and the progress caldwell has made. you can choose not to include data like taylor folding to howe in iowa city but i am looking at the whole body of work and know that the year of sr level training does wonders even if it isnt in the same style. kilgore will be fun to watch this year too. do you remember when herbert came back from his olympic redshirt?

 

we will ignore the fact that caldwell beat 2012 olympian unurbat purevjav since freestyle doesnt matter

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Caldwell has shown the ability to stop even the best wrestlers from scoring in Neutral. He did it to Howe and he did it to Burroughs for an entire match. He also did it to numerous guys in Freestyle (though under a different rule set). He is very hard to score on and very boring to watch.

 

But he is much better in Folk than Free because his best two positions are top and bottom.

 

So in a folkstyle match against Taylor or Dake I would assume he tries to do nothing and shut down action on his feet, wrestling the edge and hoping for 0-0. The college rules and how stalling are called allow for this style (it allowed him to be :10 away from beating Burroughs). Then it becomes can he ride a guy for slightly longer than he rides you. This makes him in some ways a lesser version of Dake with none of his own offense from Neutral.

 

It would be hard to justify picking him over Dake for that exact reason, but it is easy to imagine a match with Dake coming down to a few seconds of riding time or a single mistake and it going his way occasionally because of that. Especially if it wasn't a finals match. Taylor is a different matchup obviously. He strings offense together in a way that might allow him to open Caldwell up. Especially since Taylor would not need to fear Caldwell's counter offense like he might need to against Dake. I assume that 5 minutes of so in neutral of Taylor teeing off on Caldwell with scoring attempts would result in a Taylor win almost every time. But Caldwell is cut from the same physical mold as a guy like Howe and I guess that could give Taylor trouble.

 

I'd pick Dake over Taylor more often. Caldwell in an occasional upset of Dake, and Caldwell almost never beating Taylor. Either way Caldwell is not a fun match because of how he uglies it up and wrestles physical. This is a weight that it would benefit someone greatly to be the #1 seed. Either way we win as fans to see guys like this go at it.

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Caldwell is an absolute stud, no doubt, and it's about time he got his due as I've felt all summer that he was ignored in this debate. When trying to assess his chances against Taylor and Dake, it would be useful to know how hampered by injury Andrew Howe may have been when he lost to Caldwell.....of course he was out for almost two months before their match, and I thought that at the time the general consensus was that Howe was not 100%. Thoughts?

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Caldwell is an absolute stud, no doubt, and it's about time he got his due as I've felt all summer that he was ignored in this debate. When trying to assess his chances against Taylor and Dake, it would be useful to know how hampered by injury Andrew Howe may have been when he lost to Caldwell.....of course he was out for almost two months before their match, and I thought that at the time the general consensus was that Howe was not 100%. Thoughts?

 

I think Howe was severely impacted by the injury at the time. Two months is a long time to be out. Even if you switch his finish that year with Caldwell though, it puts Caldwell as a top 3 guys in a weight where numbers 1 and 2 are Burroughs and Howe, and that was two years ago. So Caldwell could be very, very good this year.

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