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TBar1977

Penn State in need of future 165, Who will step up?

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More likely to see Brown stay 174 and McCutcheon go 184.

 

Also more likely to see Zain stay 141 and Nolf succeed Alton at 149. Nolf is a bit taller, weighs about the same as Zain now, and has more room to fill out.

Good points, and I forgot about McCutcheon. I think with Bo Nickal, Cael and company will be satisfied with what they can do at those weights. I think the next big search for them will be to fill 125. All of the top teams like the lead off man to set the tone for the dual meet if they start at the traditional weight.

 

125 is easy. Megaludis, Conaway, and then Pletcher. They should be set through 2020, lol.

 

165 and 174 are the top priorities right now. I would think Nickal moves to 184 when McIntosh graduates. Law registered at 157 this past weekend, but didn't wrestle. Hammond was 165. I would think that they will probably be over recruiting these spots no matter how good the early returns are. After all they are both basically walkons, it is pretty hard to count on both to pan out at a very, very high level - which is what you need to continue the level of success PSU is at right now.

 

Myles Martin would be a real good consolation prize in 2015 to get with the Marstellar money. He is the real deal. My boy wrestled on a team with him when they were around 11 - long time ago - but I recall being very impressed with his father as a high character guy, so I would imagine that Myles is also and probably a great student.

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I would think that the 2014-15 lineup for PSU now looks like this:

 

125 - Mega (Sr)

133 - Gulibon (So)

141 - Retherford (So)

149 - Alton (Sr)

157 - Alton (Sr)

165 - Law (Fr), Hammond (Fr)

174 - Brown (Sr)

184 - McCutcheon (Fr)

197 - McIntosh (Jr)

285 - Lawson (Sr)

 

You've already got replacements for 125 (Conaway), 149 (Nolf), 174 (Nickal), 285 (Nevills) and it's probable that Hammond or Law can pan out and go to 157. So I think you have to recruit 165/174 with the idea of Nickal and McCutcheon eventually moving up. Or even someone at 141/149 for Retherford and/or Nolf moving up.

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I would think that the 2014-15 lineup for PSU now looks like this:

 

125 - Mega (Sr)

133 - Gulibon (So)

141 - Retherford (So)

149 - Alton (Sr)

157 - Alton (Sr)

165 - Law (Fr), Hammond (Fr)

174 - Brown (Sr)

184 - McCutcheon (Fr)

197 - McIntosh (Jr)

285 - Lawson (Sr)

 

You've already got replacements for 125 (Conaway), 149 (Nolf), 174 (Nickal), 285 (Nevills) and it's probable that Hammond or Law can pan out and go to 157. So I think you have to recruit 165/174 with the idea of Nickal and McCutcheon eventually moving up. Or even someone at 141/149 for Retherford and/or Nolf moving up.

 

rickybobby : I really like this quotation !!! It is so true.

 

I'm paraphrasing, but I recently heard Bill Zadick discussing weight cutting with a very talented high school wrestler. "Every moment you're in the wrestling room cutting weight is a moment you could've been working on technique and getting better," said Zadick. "Wrestling isn't fun if you're sucked out trying to lose weight. There is no enjoyment in cutting weight. You're too young for wrestling to feel like it's a job you hate. Enjoy wrestling. Wrestling is fun."

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Ped State may well win it all again this year but it will be close.

The Ohio State University will win it next year with Oklahoma State and Penn State pushing for second.

 

Iowa will be close but too many faders in the clutch to pull it out for the next decade.

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PSU definitely would not havewon the first w/o isu - do we get 1/2 of a national title to add to our 7?

As for a future 165 in Happy Valley, tread water next year with Law, Hammond, etc., then bring in the Valencia Brothers from St. John Bosco in SoCal.

 

Zahid can over 125 when Mega is gone and Anthony can take 165.

 

I'm all for this, but is it likely? Is there some inside track PSU has with the Valencia bros. over Mark Perry at Illinois with his Cali connection, or Okie State, among others?

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How's David Taylor a transfer?

Taylor signed a NLI with the Cyclones during the early signing period. Iowa State subsequently released Taylor from his commitment after Cael bolted for Happy Valley. Had Iowa State not released Taylor, he would have had to sit out a year in order to go to PSU.

 

Although he never matriculated as a student, for all intents and purposes you can consider his going from Iowa State to PSU a transfer since the NLI was in play.

 

Why isn't this exactly what happened? What am I missing? No dog in this fight, but if that wasn't a transfer, I don't know what one is.

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How's David Taylor a transfer?

Taylor signed a NLI with the Cyclones during the early signing period. Iowa State subsequently released Taylor from his commitment after Cael bolted for Happy Valley. Had Iowa State not released Taylor, he would have had to sit out a year in order to go to PSU.

 

Although he never matriculated as a student, for all intents and purposes you can consider his going from Iowa State to PSU a transfer since the NLI was in play.

 

Why isn't this exactly what happened? What am I missing? No dog in this fight, but if that wasn't a transfer, I don't know what one is.

 

Taylor was never a student enrolled at ISU and never wrestled as a Cyclone.

 

I think that is why it is not considered a transfer.

 

Unless we also consider Chance M to be a PSU transfer to Okie State.

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There's a pretty big difference between having a binding NLI committing you to a school and just a verbal agreement with no NLI. That's why ISU had to allow Taylor to transfer (transfer is the correct word to use here...) before he could go to PSU. Marsteller had no such binding commitment.

 

This is beyond a slight difference in semantics. Taylor committed, signed an NLI, and was bound to ISU. He had to get a release to be able to transfer. Very different situation from Marsteller, who made a verbal non-binding commitment before a package was even worked out and then had a change of heart.

 

Night and day.

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Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me. ISU having to release Taylor doesn't mean that Taylor was actually a part of that school. Taylor would have followed Cael no matter what and I think ISU knew that. Though It was a stand up move on ISU's part. Shows a lot class given how big of a fish Taylor was not to cost him a year of eligibility because they felt slighted by Cael.

 

Both DT and CM made commitments to attend and wrestle for a university and both changed their minds (for whatever reason) before actually enrolling or wrestling for that institution. Neither are transfers because you can only transfer away from a school you are actually a member of.

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Actually transfer is not the correct word to use regarding Taylor. He did not attend classes at ISU.

 

He did need a release from his NLI but there was no portion of his athletic or academic record that needed moved from ISU to PSU, therefore there was not a transfer

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The true test for Sanderson will begin next year. It will be nearly IDENTICAL to what Brands took a ton of heat about. How will Sanderson do once he ONLY has PSU recruits HE RECRUITED on his team? David Taylor and Ed Ruth will be gone. The crazy thing is I see a VERY SIMILAR result for him as Brands. He will have top 5 teams and could challenge for titles. However, he will not have the teams that stand out like he did while benefiting from the crossovers. I haven't noticed this discussed NEARLY as often as it was beaten to death regarding Brands early Championship run. With the teams both OSU's have put together as well as Minn and Iowa, a Taylorless/Ruthless PSU team is gonna have it's hands full trying to keep it's streak alive next year(if they win this year).

 

You are saying that Cael can't have teams as good as the past four in the future? I think you are wrong about that. We'll have to wait a while to know this because they won't start out at full strength, but by March this current team may end up as his very best and the only wrestler on this squad not 100% recruited by Cael is Ed Ruth. Do you think for one minute that Ed Ruth would commit to Troy Sunderland but not to Cael Sanderson? I don't, and what that says to me is that this current team would have been just as good, and maybe even better, has Cael been hired just 1 year prior.

 

If Cael can do this once, he can do it again.

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RE: Taylor and his NLI - if ISU had not released him he would have to sit out a year, but he sat out that first year anyway as a redshirt as Cyler took the 157 spot. It wasn't until a year later that Bubba flattened him.

 

And much like Xander, yes I am still a bit bitter, but I come by it honestly. :D

 

But if not released he would have lost a year of competition (one of the four) not just be able to redshirt.

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I don't think penn state fans truly realize how good both Taylor and Ruth actually are. If Cael gets one more recruit in the next ten years that matches their tournament scores with bonus points I would be shocked let alone two more to do it. Cael may very well win more national titles but I don't think those teams will be as good as his other championship teams.

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Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me. ISU having to release Taylor doesn't mean that Taylor was actually a part of that school. Taylor would have followed Cael no matter what and I think ISU knew that. Though It was a stand up move on ISU's part. Shows a lot class given how big of a fish Taylor was not to cost him a year of eligibility because they felt slighted by Cael.

 

Both DT and CM made commitments to attend and wrestle for a university and both changed their minds (for whatever reason) before actually enrolling or wrestling for that institution. Neither are transfers because you can only transfer away from a school you are actually a member of.

 

I don't see it that way at all. In business, if I execute a binding exclusive contract to provide a service to another company and then change my mind, I'm still under contract, no matter what I say. Nobody will care whether or not I actually started to deliver said service yet or not. A contract is a contract.

 

Chance never signed a contract.

 

Call it what you want, but there's a world of difference.

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I don't think penn state fans truly realize how good both Taylor and Ruth actually are. If Cael gets one more recruit in the next ten years that matches their tournament scores with bonus points I would be shocked let alone two more to do it. Cael may very well win more national titles but I don't think those teams will be as good as his other championship teams.

I could live with David Taylor all these years. But Ruth has been a killer, as a fan for an opposing team. He's a great wrestler but I am glad to see him go.

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The point stands though that it's pretty unlikely that another combination of their new highly ranked recruits are going to live up to their team point scoring, and that their graduation will level the playing field quite a bit.

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The true test for Sanderson will begin next year. It will be nearly IDENTICAL to what Brands took a ton of heat about. How will Sanderson do once he ONLY has PSU recruits HE RECRUITED on his team? David Taylor and Ed Ruth will be gone. The crazy thing is I see a VERY SIMILAR result for him as Brands. He will have top 5 teams and could challenge for titles. However, he will not have the teams that stand out like he did while benefiting from the crossovers. I haven't noticed this discussed NEARLY as often as it was beaten to death regarding Brands early Championship run. With the teams both OSU's have put together as well as Minn and Iowa, a Taylorless/Ruthless PSU team is gonna have it's hands full trying to keep it's streak alive next year(if they win this year).

 

You are saying that Cael can't have teams as good as the past four in the future? I think you are wrong about that. We'll have to wait a while to know this because they won't start out at full strength, but by March this current team may end up as his very best and the only wrestler on this squad not 100% recruited by Cael is Ed Ruth. Do you think for one minute that Ed Ruth would commit to Troy Sunderland but not to Cael Sanderson? I don't, and what that says to me is that this current team would have been just as good, and maybe even better, has Cael been hired just 1 year prior.

 

If Cael can do this once, he can do it again.

 

First, I said "NEXT YEAR". I have never said they shouldn't win THIS year. Second I said they could still challenge for titles starting "NEXT YEAR" but will lose two ULTRA RARE components in Taylor and Ruth. Filling these gaps is virtually impossible. Next year he will be even more challenged than Brands to reload when he lost Metcalf and Borschel. I do not think PSU is going away, but a drop off next year is inevitable. It is just simple mathematics. They will lose 60 tournament points when Taylor and Ruth graduate. No coach alive can fill that gap in one year. The question is will he develop his remaining talent to minimize that gap? As I said, he will do enough to still challenge for a title but teams like the 2 OSU's, Minnesota and Iowa will be quite pleased to know they don't have to worry about Taylor and Ruth any more!

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The true test for Sanderson will begin next year. It will be nearly IDENTICAL to what Brands took a ton of heat about. How will Sanderson do once he ONLY has PSU recruits HE RECRUITED on his team? David Taylor and Ed Ruth will be gone. The crazy thing is I see a VERY SIMILAR result for him as Brands. He will have top 5 teams and could challenge for titles. However, he will not have the teams that stand out like he did while benefiting from the crossovers. I haven't noticed this discussed NEARLY as often as it was beaten to death regarding Brands early Championship run. With the teams both OSU's have put together as well as Minn and Iowa, a Taylorless/Ruthless PSU team is gonna have it's hands full trying to keep it's streak alive next year(if they win this year).

 

You are saying that Cael can't have teams as good as the past four in the future? I think you are wrong about that. We'll have to wait a while to know this because they won't start out at full strength, but by March this current team may end up as his very best and the only wrestler on this squad not 100% recruited by Cael is Ed Ruth. Do you think for one minute that Ed Ruth would commit to Troy Sunderland but not to Cael Sanderson? I don't, and what that says to me is that this current team would have been just as good, and maybe even better, has Cael been hired just 1 year prior.

 

If Cael can do this once, he can do it again.

 

First, I said "NEXT YEAR". I have never said they shouldn't win THIS year. Second I said they could still challenge for titles starting "NEXT YEAR" but will lose two ULTRA RARE components in Taylor and Ruth. Filling these gaps is virtually impossible. Next year he will be even more challenged than Brands to reload when he lost Metcalf and Borschel. I do not think PSU is going away, but a drop off next year is inevitable. It is just simple mathematics. They will lose 60 tournament points when Taylor and Ruth graduate. No coach alive can fill that gap in one year. The question is will he develop his remaining talent to minimize that gap? As I said, he will do enough to still challenge for a title but teams like the 2 OSU's, Minnesota and Iowa will be quite pleased to know they don't have to worry about Taylor and Ruth any more!

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Taylor and Ruth are/were special, no doubt they will be missed. But Penn State isn't the only one that will have to re-load next year.

 

As you state, "...the 2 OSU's, Minnesota and Iowa will be quite pleased to know they don't have to worry about Taylor and Ruth any more!"

 

While true, it's not as if the others aren't seeing a lot of points leave, too.

 

Minnie loses: Nelson, Steinhaus, Thorn and Zilverberg.

OkIe State loses: Morrison, Caldwell, Perry and Rosholt (but gets Marsteller)

Ohio State loses: Paddock, Languis, Heflin (but gets Steiber back and will have Tomasello and Jordon in the lineup)

Iowa loses: Ramos, St. John, Lofthouse

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Taylor and Ruth are/were special, no doubt they will be missed. But Penn State isn't the only one that will have to re-load next year.

 

As you state, "...the 2 OSU's, Minnesota and Iowa will be quite pleased to know they don't have to worry about Taylor and Ruth any more!"

 

While true, it's not as if the others aren't seeing a lot of points leave, too.

 

Minnie loses: Nelson, Steinhaus, Thorn and Zilverberg.

OkIe State loses: Morrison, Caldwell, Perry and Rosholt (but gets Marsteller)

Ohio State loses: Paddock, Languis, Heflin (but gets Steiber back and will have Tomasello and Jordon in the lineup)

Iowa loses: Ramos, St. John, Lofthouse

 

I never said they were not also losing major contributors. My argument is even National champs like Nelson and Perry are CONSIDERABLY easier to minimize the points lost than Taylor or Ruth. Kroells is the real deal and will fill in admirably. Crutchmer looks like a solid replacement as well. Actually looking at OSU's recruiting I fully expect them to be better next year than this year. Heil should be as good as Morrison if not better. Marstellar for Caldwell seems good to me. Crutchmer is not Perry but should still AA. Schafer should fill in admirably for Rosholt. So even though they lose a bit in Crutchmer and Schafer adding Collica to the lineup should offset that.

 

2014-15 OSU lineup *symbols demarkate reasonable expectations for each weight compared to this year.

125 Klimara/Gentzler/Hale-greater than

133 Heil = or > than

141 Collica > than

149 Kindig = or > than

157 Dierenger = or > than

165 Marstellar = or > than

174 Crutchmer

184 Rogers = or > than

197 Schafer

285 Marsden = or > than

 

2014-15 tOSU lineup

125 Tomasello > than

133 Dijulius = > than

141 Stieber = > than

149 Stieber > than

157 Demas = or > than

165 Jordan > than

174 Martin = or > than

184 Courts = or > than

197 Could be a MAJOR hole

285 Tavanello = or > than

 

2014-15 Minnesota lineup Hard to predict with weight shifting possibilities

125 Brancale = or > than

133 Looks like a hole unless Dardanes bros move back to allow for Short to fit into 149

141 Dardanes or Dardanes = or > than

149 Dardanes or Short = or > than

157 Ness = or > than

165 Too many possibilities that should be comparable to Zilverberg

174 Storley = or > than

184 Pfarr

197 Schiller = or > than

285 Kroells

How good this team can be depends alot on how they situate from 133-165. It really depends on if the weight shift is too hard for the Dardanes after a year of being able to eat food with calories.

 

2014-15 Iowa

125 Clark = or > than

133 Gilman

141 Dziewa = > than

149 Sorensen > than should finally (cross fingers) break the curse of Metcalf

157 Kelly? major

165 Moore = > than

174 Evans = > than

184 Brooks

197 Burak = > than could get pushed hard by Berge

285 Telford = > than

Hard to tell whether or not Iowa can recover from losing Ramos, St. John and Lofthouse. Should be really tough at the other weights though.

 

PSU 2014-15

125 - Mega (Sr) = or > than

133 - Gulibon (So) = or > than

141 - Retherford (So) > than

149 - Alton (Sr) = or > than

157 - Alton (Sr) = or > than

165 - Law (Fr), Hammond (Fr) Major

174 - Brown (Sr) = or > than

184 - McCutcheon (Fr) Major

197 - McIntosh (Jr) = or

285 - Lawson (Sr) = or

PSU should still be a VERY formidable team. Simply put losing Taylor and Ruth gives the other teams a chance to beat a team this good. Taylor and Ruth put this team on another level. PSU can still win but they will not control their own destiny like they have while Taylor and Ruth were on the team.

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