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jrob calls out cael on dual proposal

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Besides maybe logistics, what exactly is the issue with changing the team champion being determined from an individual tournament to a dual tournament? People believe that this change would "dismantle" NCAA's. I quoted dismantle because those are words that Cael has used to justify his position.

 

Why is it being dismantled? How exactly is it being dismanted? Why would a NWCA team champion, at the individual championships, be less significant than an NCAA team champion?

 

Team scores are determined by individual performances. Tom Brands has said this. The team score is still going to be shown just like at all the other individual championships. The team score is going to be exactly the same, no matter what the acronym is. Wrestlers are going to be busting their butts for AA status or for individual titles, no matter what the team score is.

 

So what's the issue?

 

 

So.... Why still keep team scores if they don't count towards a Championship??? What's the point?

 

Tradition. To appease the old guard.

 

Though, by that token, you must conclude that dual meets have no meaning since they don't have any bearing on a championship?

 

I am in the camp that the wrestlers will still wrestle to be an All-American and they aren't too concerned about the team race. Let's be honest, if there is a kid that shuts down to stall out a win, he will be booed and the official will likely hit him with stalling and he might end up losing in the end. Officials are often criticized for not calling stalling quick enough during the season but they are much quicker to call it at the NCAAs since nearly every guy is going all out to try to stay alive and keep their dream in reach.

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Besides maybe logistics, what exactly is the issue with changing the team champion being determined from an individual tournament to a dual tournament? People believe that this change would "dismantle" NCAA's. I quoted dismantle because those are words that Cael has used to justify his position.

 

Why is it being dismantled? How exactly is it being dismanted? Why would a NWCA team champion, at the individual championships, be less significant than an NCAA team champion?

 

Team scores are determined by individual performances. Tom Brands has said this. The team score is still going to be shown just like at all the other individual championships. The team score is going to be exactly the same, no matter what the acronym is. Wrestlers are going to be busting their butts for AA status or for individual titles, no matter what the team score is.

 

So what's the issue?

I think the overall issue is that the NCAA will not recognize two team championships. So, if the sport goes to a dual format championship, the NCAA will not recognize the team champion at the individual tournament. The individual championships would lose the team aspect of the tournament. This is an issue for a lot of people in the sport.

 

That is my understanding of the problem.

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if you think a ref is going to make the stalling call at Nationals that will decide a match, I have to wonder how many matches at Nationals you've watched. last season was Atrocious, and it was about average.

 

Those athletes worked hard to earn those points early on. My point was that people are claiming athletes will shut down and it will be much worse. I don't see that happening. I don't see a wrestler getting a takedown in the first 30 seconds and stalling out. If the wrestler stalls out late in the match, as you say, nothing will have changed.

 

I don't see a worse product on the mat for fans if we remove the team title from the event. You can't tell me that Taylor and Ruth are only out there scoring bonus points so that the team can win. If that were the case, you would never want to watch Ruth or Taylor in and open. Their styles don't change in opens because that is their style. There is no team race factor in them getting bonus points in opens but they still do it. Additionally, they are still going to want to ensure they get a national title so they are going to go out there to dominate their opponents to ensure they get it.

 

Again, I don't see the individual tournament getting any less exciting for wrestling fans.

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Besides maybe logistics, what exactly is the issue with changing the team champion being determined from an individual tournament to a dual tournament? People believe that this change would "dismantle" NCAA's. I quoted dismantle because those are words that Cael has used to justify his position.

 

Why is it being dismantled? How exactly is it being dismanted? Why would a NWCA team champion, at the individual championships, be less significant than an NCAA team champion?

 

Team scores are determined by individual performances. Tom Brands has said this. The team score is still going to be shown just like at all the other individual championships. The team score is going to be exactly the same, no matter what the acronym is. Wrestlers are going to be busting their butts for AA status or for individual titles, no matter what the team score is.

 

So what's the issue?

I think the overall issue is that the NCAA will not recognize two team championships. So, if the sport goes to a dual format championship, the NCAA will not recognize the team champion at the individual tournament. The individual championships would lose the team aspect of the tournament. This is an issue for a lot of people in the sport.

 

That is my understanding of the problem.

 

I'll give you the issue of not having two NCAA team champions. However, it's been said that the NWCA would be allowed to keep team scores at the individual championships. So the team aspect is still there, just under another organization.

 

This isn't going to be like how the NWCA National Duals are right now. The problem with the duals, right now, is that not every team is showing up (and they won't show up as long as it's not NCAA-sanctioned).

 

If/When this duals proposal passes, everyone will be going to an NCAA-sanctioned dual championship. At the same time, everyone will also go to the individual championships because it'll still be NCAA-sanctioned at the individual level (although the team race will be headed by the NWCA).

 

What am I missing?

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Besides maybe logistics, what exactly is the issue with changing the team champion being determined from an individual tournament to a dual tournament? People believe that this change would "dismantle" NCAA's. I quoted dismantle because those are words that Cael has used to justify his position.

 

Why is it being dismantled? How exactly is it being dismanted? Why would a NWCA team champion, at the individual championships, be less significant than an NCAA team champion?

 

Team scores are determined by individual performances. Tom Brands has said this. The team score is still going to be shown just like at all the other individual championships. The team score is going to be exactly the same, no matter what the acronym is. Wrestlers are going to be busting their butts for AA status or for individual titles, no matter what the team score is.

 

So what's the issue?

I think the overall issue is that the NCAA will not recognize two team championships. So, if the sport goes to a dual format championship, the NCAA will not recognize the team champion at the individual tournament. The individual championships would lose the team aspect of the tournament. This is an issue for a lot of people in the sport.

 

That is my understanding of the problem.

 

 

For me, this is more about people fearing any change than it is about anything else.

 

I would never support two NCAA team titles--it diminishes the value of each. But to have duals as the basis for regular season league contests and then not to base your team title on them seems a little strange to me. Tournaments are all well and good but if we had a tournament only system (similar to cross country) the sport would implode. Duals are the best thing wrestling has going.

 

Note: I have always been baffled by the people that claim tournaments draw more fans. Tournaments only draw family members and die hards while duals draw all of those plus more casual students and community members.

 

The NCAA tournament has 77 (possible) teams in attendance. Since most fans buy tickets before conference championships we can assume that wrestler qualification has less of a factor in attendance than it would in a bowl game or march maddness. Since the NCAAs have about 15,000 fans per session (some seats are reserved for the participating teams) we are looking at about 190 fans per school. This is a very low number. Now let's factor in that the NCAA must cover the cost of all of these teams and their athletes for the whole event (even after they are eliminated) and many of our NCAAs have been held in cities without a college wrestling team so literally every program in the country is traveling and adding expenses.

 

If we look at participants we have 330 participants which means that each participant draws about 45 fans to the NCAAs for a total attendance of 15,000 a session.

 

Let's take it to a more basic level. How many fans do conference championships draw? There is one home team and then all of the other teams are paying for travel. In the case of the Big 10, there are 11 teams traveling and 120 athletes competing. I would guess the conference averages more than 2,500 fans for conference duals but I will use that figure. For each dual you have one team paying for travel and one team at home and you attract 2,500 fans on average. This means at any given conference date there could be six conference duals taking place in front of an estimated 15,000 fans (again, a very conservative estimate if Penn State and Iowa are both hosting duals on those dates). This means that each individual athletes (120) draws roughly 125 fans.

 

Now let's take a look at the Big Ten championships where there are 11 teams traveling and one home team. Just like the conference dual dates you have 12 teams competing and 120 athletes wrestling. Does the conference draw 15,000 fans per session? Do they draw 15,000 paid fans to the championship when you add all the sessions?

 

The Big Ten is the premier conference, and I don't think anyone would dispute that. So let's compare it to another conference. Let's look at the EWL. They had seven teams and I would estimate they they probably averaged about 500 fans per dual. They could have 3 conference duals on any one date with 60 athletes participating. In total, these three duals could be expected to draw 1,500 fans for a draw of 25 fans per wrestler. If you look at the EWL tournament, there is one team hosting and six teams paying for travel. To keep the same fan to participant ratio they would need to have 1,750 fans in attendance for each session. Do they draw this number?

 

The problem with tournaments is people look at the total people in attendance. Does the Scuffle, Midlands, CliffKeen, or even the Nittany Open draw fans? It may look that way when there are 400 participants sitting in the stands with their parents and coaches. Or when the back-ups and non-starters ride along to the conference championships. But as far as drawing fans, and getting in front of fans, there is no better return on investment for wrestling than duals.

 

Using the same figures for the NCAA duals, if there are eight teams attending, and 80 athletes, we would only need to average 1,520 a session to meet the same team to fan ratio or 3,600 a session to meet the same fan to athlete ratio.

 

There is no doubt in my mind the NCAA duals would beat these metrics. Iowa, Penn State, Ohio State, Minnesota, Lehigh, Rutgers, or Virginia Tech could all host the finals and expect to beat these numbers just by them being in the first session.

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So, let's use the high estimates.

 

Midlands has four sessions and drew 2,000 total fans for an average of 500 fans a session. There were 42 teams in attendance (but since there are partial teams I will say 30 teams) meaning that each team drew just over 16 fans a session or about 66 for the whole event. If there are 330 wrestlers (the same number as the NCAAs) this would mean that each athlete attracted about 6 fans to the whole event, or 1.5 per session. So using the same numbers, in order for a dual meet to have the same attendance figures (and not even counting all of the cost associated with all the travel since only one of the 42 teams was at home) a dual meet would need to draw 30 fans. Don't you think Millersville was outdrawing the Midlands?

 

 

As far as individual championships, there is nothing that compares to the NCAA wrestling championships. But as far as attendance from fans and building fan followings, there is nothing worse.

 

I would love to have each team wrestling one or two invitationals a year, a full dual schedule, and sending their backups to get matches at opens. I don't think athletes need 50 matches a year and I think more home dates is better for the sport.

 

But, hey, the midlands does look like it is drawing a lot when you add in the 500 wrestlers, coaches, and athletic trainers in the stands of all the eliminated teams. It doubles the whole attendance!

 

Sadly, people's emotions are based on perception, and for them, perception becomes their reality. But for the people that actually look at the evidence, the perception is very wrong.

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I would say your opinion that people are fighting this because they fear change is wrong. They are against the current proposal because there is no factual data backing up their claims this will bring in new fans, sve programs, being in millions in revenue and not hurt the individual tournament at all.

 

I have zero problem with change. Just prove your statements. Don't feed me long posts, don't feed me quotes, don't feed me hopes and dreams. Just show me the data. Until someone actually does that, I won't be convinced.

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I would say your opinion that people are fighting this because they fear change is wrong. They are against the current proposal because there is no factual data backing up their claims this will bring in new fans, sve programs, being in millions in revenue and not hurt the individual tournament at all.

 

I have zero problem with change. Just prove your statements. Don't feed me long posts, don't feed me quotes, don't feed me hopes and dreams. Just show me the data. Until someone actually does that, I won't be convinced.

 

 

You're a waste of bandwidth...

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It may be a good idea for one of these gents(JRob, Koll or Cael) to call the others to discuss things rather than communicating through the media. I believe that would be the best thing for the sport.

 

 

I have to think that this was, in large part, the case. But when Sanderson started tweeting and making it public it stirred up the public and then coaches felt a need to go on the record to calm the public who felt in the dark (and probably should have been in the dark).

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I would say your opinion that people are fighting this because they fear change is wrong. They are against the current proposal because there is no factual data backing up their claims this will bring in new fans, sve programs, being in millions in revenue and not hurt the individual tournament at all.

 

I have zero problem with change. Just prove your statements. Don't feed me long posts, don't feed me quotes, don't feed me hopes and dreams. Just show me the data. Until someone actually does that, I won't be convinced.

 

 

You're a waste of bandwidth...

 

Excellent way to prove your argument.

 

Anyways........If you believe so much in your argument, present the data that supports it. Shouldn't be that difficult.

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It may be a good idea for one of these gents(JRob, Koll or Cael) to call the others to discuss things rather than communicating through the media. I believe that would be the best thing for the sport.

 

 

I have to think that this was, in large part, the case. But when Sanderson started tweeting and making it public it stirred up the public and then coaches felt a need to go on the record to calm the public who felt in the dark (and probably should have been in the dark).

 

Yes who cares what the public thinks. Let's also hire replacement refs and see how that goes.

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It may be a good idea for one of these gents(JRob, Koll or Cael) to call the others to discuss things rather than communicating through the media. I believe that would be the best thing for the sport.

 

 

I have to think that this was, in large part, the case. But when Sanderson started tweeting and making it public it stirred up the public and then coaches felt a need to go on the record to calm the public who felt in the dark (and probably should have been in the dark).

 

Yes who cares what the public thinks. Let's also hire replacement refs and see how that goes.

Pinnum was right - you are acting like a waste of bandwidth. You can do better.

 

A little sarcasm combined with a reference to a popular NFL topic is lame.

 

If you want to participate in an intelligent wrestling conversation, limit your contribution to something that is helpful and constructive. Leave the sarcastic comments to the weak minded.

 

I've read really good posts you've made, and I'm sure you can do better.

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Cael is the king of the twitter bombs. If you want to talk about somebody backing off their media jabs, he's your boy. Something tells me that's not what you guys wanted to hear.

 

 

Luchador-You really are as bad as Mopar dude. You don't have to agree with what Pinnum says, I don't all the time, and yes his posts are balls out long, but he brings something to the table. You bring nothing but nonsense. Just telling you for your own good you sound like a fool. Obviously it's either an intentionally stupid act or your just stupid, either way you're not going to heed my advice so carry on striving to be like Mopar.

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Cael is the king of the twitter bombs. If you want to talk about somebody backing off their media jabs, he's your boy. Something tells me that's not what you guys wanted to hear.

 

 

Luchador-You really are as bad as Mopar dude. You don't have to agree with what Pinnum says, I don't all the time, and yes his posts are balls out long, but he brings something to the table. You bring nothing but nonsense. Just telling you for your own good you sound like a fool. Obviously it's either an intentionally stupid act or your just stupid, either way you're not going to heed my advice so carry on striving to be like Mopar.

 

 

So rather than engage the question with a good response, like an actual answer, you chose to do the complete opposite and troll instead. So wanting factual data is nonsense?

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Cael is the king of the twitter bombs. If you want to talk about somebody backing off their media jabs, he's your boy. Something tells me that's not what you guys wanted to hear.

 

 

Luchador-You really are as bad as Mopar dude. You don't have to agree with what Pinnum says, I don't all the time, and yes his posts are balls out long, but he brings something to the table. You bring nothing but nonsense. Just telling you for your own good you sound like a fool. Obviously it's either an intentionally stupid act or your just stupid, either way you're not going to heed my advice so carry on striving to be like Mopar.

 

 

So rather than engage the question with a good response, like an actual answer, you chose to do the complete opposite and troll instead. So wanting factual data is nonsense?

 

Luchy, maybe it's just me, but I see plenty of "facts" in Pinnum's posts - tons of factual data, in fact. (More than I care to try to digest, thank you! :roll: ;) ) Now,it may not be of the type or in a format that you understand, but it is there. Arguing innarticulately to the contrary really isn't helping your case, counselor!

 

What is it the lawyers say? "When the law is on your side, pound the law; when the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When niether is on your side, pound the table!"

 

Seems to me, there is a lot of table pounding going on around here!

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Red Blades, I completely agree.

 

I see this type of approach used in the business world often when change isn't wanted or delay is desired. More data, more data. Yes, data is a good thing, it really is. But the data desired is not always available when decisions need to be made. Instead, you go on what you have and in this case, what has been presented is actually a fair bit. That data, mixed with sound reasoning, is enough to make a decision. Luch seems to discount the reasoning piece and just shouts for more data. He is the kinda guy I hate working with. It's the kinda guy that would make innovation impossible in the business world. He could always shout "not enough data!!!"

 

All that said, I do think it is a good thing that there is more time for the coaches to have a deeper conversation and perhaps come up with an even better solution. When it was presented as 'must do now or wait for a long time' type of proposition, I was fully supportive of moving forward. However, it seems like this is not the case any more.

 

I'd love two NCAA team championships. Sure, we all would. But those in the know seem to say this isn't going to happen and they've explained why pretty well.

 

Another alternative is that all the coaches voluntarily decided to commit to the NWCA national duals, which would have avoided all of this to begin with. Why couldn't that happen? Can that happen? If not, why not? Just like folks say that the acronym in front of the team championship shouldn't matter (too much), the NWCA dual meet champion should still sound good to those folks if all really fought for it. It would count for me!

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Just a few reasons why some coaches might not have supported an optional national Duals in the past and possibly in the future:

 

1. Level of competition is too hard on the wrestlers. Think a lesser event is better for the team.

2. Can't get team to peak for 2 marquee season events.

3. Want the team to wrestle a different spectrum of wrestlers.

4. Not invited

5. Sore about not being invited previously.

6. Doesn't want to cooperate with the NWCA (guess who)

 

(feel free to add more)

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I'd love two NCAA team championships. Sure, we all would. But those in the know seem to say this isn't going to happen and they've explained why pretty well.

 

Another alternative is that all the coaches voluntarily decided to commit to the NWCA national duals, which would have avoided all of this to begin with. Why couldn't that happen? Can that happen? If not, why not? Just like folks say that the acronym in front of the team championship shouldn't matter (too much), the NWCA dual meet champion should still sound good to those folks if all really fought for it. It would count for me!

 

Nom, your last paragraph posits an excellent alternative.

 

Just to go on record here (because I had earlier posted my own views over on the WR forum, but I've been pretty mute on this one thus far) - I personally believe that the tournament format is a better measure of overall team strength (as compared to a dual meet format). And I love the current NCAA Tournament as it is. Count me among those who don't want to see it change!

 

BUT I am also old enough to know now that I can't always get what I want! :roll: And proponants of the National Dual Championship have presented a pretty good case that we need INNOVATION. There is enough DATA, in my mind, to convince me that we can't just keep on going the way we are. We need to grow.

 

One thing I keep reading into the current proposal, I don't know if this is true (and maybe others more in the know can comment) is that it seems that a lot of the motivation for getting this event to happen is media exposure - A dual meet tournament would be an excellent format for ESPN or some other network to present. And this is how we are going to grow the fan base. We may not get the non-wrestling fan to buy a ticket and travel to see something they are not familiar with, but if we can bring it right into folks' living rooms, we just may re-awaken interest in all of those old high school and Jr. high wrestlers who never went on to wrestle in college and lost interest as they grew older.

 

So - rather than a flat out argument against change - how about folks presenting actual solutions? Or, if folks don't have better ideas (and right off, I can't say I do!), then how about let the process work it's way through? The coaches will meet again to discuss this proposal further. That's a good thing. Coaches Sanderson, Koll, Brands, Robinson, et alia are all really great guys who have pretty much all devoted their lives to this sport. I personally give them my respect for that, whether or not I agree with their current stances on this issue. And I am confident that when thay all sit down and put their heads together, something good will come out of it.

 

Let's give them that chance.

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Cael is the king of the twitter bombs. If you want to talk about somebody backing off their media jabs, he's your boy. Something tells me that's not what you guys wanted to hear.

 

 

Luchador-You really are as bad as Mopar dude. You don't have to agree with what Pinnum says, I don't all the time, and yes his posts are balls out long, but he brings something to the table. You bring nothing but nonsense. Just telling you for your own good you sound like a fool. Obviously it's either an intentionally stupid act or your just stupid, either way you're not going to heed my advice so carry on striving to be like Mopar.

 

 

So rather than engage the question with a good response, like an actual answer, you chose to do the complete opposite and troll instead. So wanting factual data is nonsense?

 

The only data you need is under 80 programs and heading south.

Something needs to stop the bleeding and status quo ain't it.

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