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jrob calls out cael on dual proposal

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there is plenty of data that our current system doesnt work idk how people cant see it. ask the wrestlers at slippery rock, lsu, ucla, georgia state, or notre dame how they enjoy the current format.

 

no we wont get programs back. you would have to be an idiot to think any proposal would bring programs back but we can stop the bleeding to save what we do have. i doubt the penn state fans want to go to nationals and compete for a national title against 29 other programs.

 

i really think some fans dont care about the health of the sport and just want to watch the national finals. maybe they would rather have two days of nationals to save them money and cut out half the teams.

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Just to go on record here (because I had earlier posted my own views over on the WR forum, but I've been pretty mute on this one thus far) - I personally believe that the tournament format is a better measure of overall team strength (as compared to a dual meet format). And I love the current NCAA Tournament as it is. Count me among those who don't want to see it change!

 

The issue I see with using tournaments to determine team strength is that they come in many varieties. We have our Midlands and Southern Scuffle-types, which can have as many as 40+ in a bracket. Then there are the conference tournaments, which range fom 6 to 11 to 14 teams. Then there's the NCAA's that has 33 wrestlers per bracket.

 

So which tournament structure best determines team strength?

 

Is it NCAA's? Going back the last 5 years, the average team champion did not qualify 10% of it's team, 5 out of 50. In 2010, Penn State missed out on 2 qualifiers. In that same span, the average top 5 team did not qualify 15.6% of their team, 39 out of 250. I checked the brackets on wrestlingstats.com

 

Using a format that allows for 10% of a team champion, and 15.6% of a top 5 team, to ride the bench seems a bit off to me.

 

At least in a dual, everyone has an opportunity to send out a full line-up everytime.

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Cael is the king of the twitter bombs. If you want to talk about somebody backing off their media jabs, he's your boy. Something tells me that's not what you guys wanted to hear.

 

 

Luchador-You really are as bad as Mopar dude. You don't have to agree with what Pinnum says, I don't all the time, and yes his posts are balls out long, but he brings something to the table. You bring nothing but nonsense. Just telling you for your own good you sound like a fool. Obviously it's either an intentionally stupid act or your just stupid, either way you're not going to heed my advice so carry on striving to be like Mopar.

 

 

So rather than engage the question with a good response, like an actual answer, you chose to do the complete opposite and troll instead. So wanting factual data is nonsense?

 

The only data you need is under 80 programs and heading south.

Something needs to stop the bleeding and status quo ain't it.

 

 

So NCAA duals gets rid of title 9? Please show the data supporting this claim.

 

Furthermore, successful businesses want data before they just jump into something new. Unsuccessful businesses don't, then go out of business.

 

It was like today, two vendors made grand claims they could sell us the same product much cheaper, thus making us more money. So I said prove it. Put something together proving you can do that. One vendor we didn't hear back from, the other put together actual numbers backed with facts and got our business. Again, pretty simple. Talk is cheap.

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L ucador, your post almost makes to much sense. Before we make a 180 with the NCAA championships we should do some "thought out" trial runs with the dual championships. Other then just an invite to the teams and whoever shows up ...shows up. Obviously there is not enough of an incentive for the duals for all the top teams to participate. I don't think an (NWCA TITLE) means much. It is kinda like winning a JV tournament ( to some teams) .BUT can the NWCA make it so there is an incentive to enter, and just as important, the fans to WANT to show up. I think if ESPN is willing to give us "exposure" then we need to take this seriously. Eventhough the title of NWCA duals champion doesn't mean much (right now), it may mean something to ESPN!!! And it may mean something to the teams who in the past have not really supported it. All "true wrestling fans wanna grow the sport(coaches included). So let's try to keep this thread positive with some good ideas. Ok... let's hear some incentives.

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I'll start... 1) hire an independent marketing company to evaluate the situation

 

Because the study the NCAA did isn't good enough? You know, the one where they determined the average age of NCAA attendees was rising and some type of change to introduce a younger fan base was recommended.

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You have plenty of data to suggest we need change. It sounds like Luchador150 has some business experience, so he would know about trend lines. The trend line for college wrestling is heading to the basement. There is no denying that. To do nothing is to allow the death. I wonder how many fortune 500 companies would do nothing if this was their trend line? Think about it. There comes a time to let go of what use to be so we can save this thing we all love.

So now we are faced with ugly word "Change". It always causes backlash - ALWAYS. But it many cases it is just so necessary. For wrestling, the time is now. Bring on the change for the good of the greatest sport in the world. We clearly need a fresh start, and making the entire season meaningful is a really good idea.

 

And change in wrestling will not defeat Title IX, but if an athletic director has to cut a sport, they are going to look at $$$ and the fan base. The smallest fan base means the smallest headache to deal with when cutting a program, so it makes sense to make wresting a big headache for AD's. We do need more fans, and making the entire season meaningful makes sense. And of course we need to save the individual tournament, because wrestlers by nature see individual goals.

 

And I know there will be a rebuttal for this post, but nobody can ignore the current trendline, which is what so many are trying to do in this discussion.

 

Bottom line, if wresting was a Fortune 500 company, and you were the CEO, and the decision was to do nothing, you wouldn't have a job.

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Wrestle09 you really keep putting your foot in your mouth and show how green you are. I hope you are some young kid and not an adult.

 

The ncaa is behind this proposal and want to see it happen just like many people in the sport. The ncaa wants to grow the sport and see it to continue to make money. Anyone that thinks the ncaa is going to hurt wrestling don't know what they talk about.

 

 

Here is some info I posted a while back about people knowing that the ncaa and nwca were working on the nationals duals. As you can see people knew what was going on unless they didn't pay attention to the media or attend nwca conferences. Brands quote is probably the best one there! http://usawrestlingnation.com/phpBB3/vi ... 7117&hilit

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L ucador, your post almost makes to much sense. Before we make a 180 with the NCAA championships we should do some "thought out" trial runs with the dual championships. Other then just an invite to the teams and whoever shows up ...shows up. Obviously there is not enough of an incentive for the duals for all the top teams to participate. I don't think an (NWCA TITLE) means much. It is kinda like winning a JV tournament ( to some teams) .BUT can the NWCA make it so there is an incentive to enter, and just as important, the fans to WANT to show up. I think if ESPN is willing to give us "exposure" then we need to take this seriously. Eventhough the title of NWCA duals champion doesn't mean much (right now), it may mean something to ESPN!!! And it may mean something to the teams who in the past have not really supported it. All "true wrestling fans wanna grow the sport(coaches included). So let's try to keep this thread positive with some good ideas. Ok... let's hear some incentives.

 

A lot in this I agree with. For some reason, coaches have not had enough incentive to support NWCA National Duals in the past. What can we do to change this? Why does winning an NWCA title not mean much? I think there is a chicken and egg issue. If all the teams committed to it, it would mean a lot.

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I think this was the main reason for the proposal. If it is sanctioned by the NCAA, it is now meaningful to all wrestling programs and their AD's. And if all of the top teams are in attendance, it becomes a huge event with tremendous potential to attract attention. Honestly, how do you guarantee attendance from all teams if it is not NCAA sanctioned?

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...how could anyone argue with a straight face that tournament team titles show off team strength better than a dual format? Dual's don't disproportionately weigh the performances of individuals, they can each only score bonus points once.

 

Lets say David Taylor and Ed Ruth wrestled for Sacred Heart, and the rest of the team was the same. Would Drexel be top 10 at the NCAA tournament? Maybe. Would they make it out of the first round of a dual tournament? No.

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And this may be where wresting has gone wrong. Too much emphasis on the individual and less on the team. The current proposal shifts this. And I see how programs that have national finalists like the tournament format to decide the national title, because their athletes score a lot more points in that venue then they can in a dual meet format. If there champ gets upset and gets third, he still scores a lot of team points. In a dual, if he gets upset or doesn't get bonus points, that is a huge swing in the dual. It is, without question, a shift.

 

For my own personal needs, either satisfies me. Either way, I get to see what I want to see. But I still say that casual fan will grasp the team race more than the individual race.

 

Imagine two powerhouses going for the title. There are several teams that could rise to the final dual, but say it ends out being Iowa - Penn State for the National title. On ESPN. 90 minutes decides it all. How could this not be a huge draw for the sport of wrestling? And then you get to see the individuals go at it in the end. Tell me you wouldn't watch. If you wouldn't watch, how could you call yourself a wresting fan? It would be awesome.

 

I would have my whole wresting team in my living room watching it.

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Common sense tells us that it would be easier for a casual fan to ELECT to attend a dual than a tournament. It follows that it should be (marginally) easier to entice such fans to duals than to tournaments.

 

I don't think statistical studies are needed for this.

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And this may be where wresting has gone wrong. Too much emphasis on the individual and less on the team. The current proposal shifts this. And I see how programs that have national finalists like the tournament format to decide the national title, because their athletes score a lot more points in that venue then they can in a dual meet format. If there champ gets upset and gets third, he still scores a lot of team points. In a dual, if he gets upset or doesn't get bonus points, that is a huge swing in the dual. It is, without question, a shift.

 

For my own personal needs, either satisfies me. Either way, I get to see what I want to see. But I still say that casual fan will grasp the team race more than the individual race.

 

Imagine two powerhouses going for the title. There are several teams that could rise to the final dual, but say it ends out being Iowa - Penn State for the National title. On ESPN. 90 minutes decides it all. How could this not be a huge draw for the sport of wrestling? And then you get to see the individuals go at it in the end. Tell me you wouldn't watch. If you wouldn't watch, how could you call yourself a wresting fan? It would be awesome.

 

I would have my whole wresting team in my living room watching it.

 

 

Exactly. A 90 minute team event to determine the team championship, whereas the "tournament team title" is already decided by the Finals in most cases, makes tons of sense and is far more likely to draw fans than a 3 day individual tournament. The charm of duals is that it's one team against another in 10 individual matches. It's going to be Iowa vs. Penn State or whoever for all 10 matches, so there's more emotion as well as ebb and flow to the proceedings.

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I am not against the idea of a dual meet tournament growing the sport of wrestling. I never said that. Not that it matters but I have owned a business for almost 30 years and have been involved in the sport for 36 years. I wish i were green.. :). I have a certain mindset that is obvious in my previous posts(although i wish i could take the one in which i unfairly criticized JROB back)..that was out of frustration and was a low blow that really wasnt accurate in the first place. I apologize for that. Let's assume the NCAA said eliminating the TEAM title at the NCAAs was NOT an option( i realize they said it was lol). What incentive could we offer to those teams that don"t enter the duals to enter the duals? (not financial).. The all star classic is sold out. Why?? This question would be more relevant for those who are against eliminating the current NCAA team title? Dan Gable wants both... well so do I and almost everyone else I talk to. We (poster/fans) may not have the answer so my reccommendation was 1) independent marketing group.

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I am not against the idea of a dual meet tournament growing the sport of wrestling. I never said that. Not that it matters but I have owned a business for almost 30 years and have been involved in the sport for 36 years. I wish i were green.. :). I have a certain mindset that is obvious in my previous posts(although i wish i could take the one in which i unfairly criticized JROB back)..that was out of frustration and was a low blow that really wasnt accurate in the first place. I apologize for that. Let's assume the NCAA said eliminating the TEAM title at the NCAAs was NOT an option( i realize they said it was lol). What incentive could we offer to those teams that don"t enter the duals to enter the duals? (not financial).. The all star classic is sold out. Why?? This question would be more relevant for those who are against eliminating the current NCAA team title? Dan Gable wants both... well so do I and almost everyone else I talk to. We (poster/fans) may not have the answer so my reccommendation was 1) independent marketing group.

 

 

We can't have both. There is one NCAA championship per sport. There has to be something to differentiate it, something as simple as "indoor" and "outdoor" track. But you can't really do that with wrestling unless you have a FOlkstyle season and Freestyle season, and colleges barely want to pay for wrestling now. So you only get one championship. Now you have to decide what truly represents team strength: tournament scoring or dual matches. I think it's pretty clear that dual matches are more representative of team strength.

 

Last year, Ed Ruth, David Taylor, and Frank Molinaro, by themselves, would have taken a strong 5th in last years NCAA tournament. That's 3 (THREE!) guys. Using my previous argument, if those three guys were on Sacred Heart and the rest of the team remained, Iowa is still going to blow Sacred Heart out in a dual. That's the point.

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Vak... What you are saying is accurate. I do understand that. Let's just say that after all of this the NCAA says "keep the NCAAs as they are".... they may. My question is how can we make the dual meet tournament better? The best teams are not showing up. What can we do to make them WANT to show up? It may well be nothing... I certainly dont have an answer.

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You can't incentivize teams participation in an NWCA duals. ESPN has made it clear that they want to broadcaste the NCAA duals, not the NWCA duals. The truth is that people tune in for an NCAA championship. Anytime I see one on TV I watch. It doesn't matter if it is ice hockey (not much of a fan of the sport) or lacrosse (also not a fan of the sport). I tune in and watch them because that one broadcaste is showing a significant event that is going to crown the best team in the country.

 

Remember that even the NCAA championship being awarded isn't always enough to get a team to attend the event. The Ivy League and SWAC have opted out of attending NCAA championships before. But having an NCAA (individual or team) title being awarded is the best way to ensure teams will want to attend. Sanderson's allegance is to Penn State and just as Brands a few years ago, if they think not attending the duals is best to ensure an NCAA title they won't. I can't really fault them for that. But if we have two NCAA events you can bet they will be trying to win the team title and attending ready to roll!

 

I attend the NCAA wrestling championships and I enjoy it a lot. But I have never been attracted to the event because of the team race. I am there, like many wrestling fans, just to watch good wrestling. It is the best folkstyle wrestling you can watch and there are three days of upsets and overtime matches. It is great for any die hard.

 

But our die hard fans don't often attend duals. Partly because they may not live near an team so they might have to drive a few hours and don't think it is worth the drive for only 10 matches in a dual and also because they would rather be at home where they can stream 5 duals during the day rather than watch one dual that they have to go out for. I understand how people can get as much satisfaction from watching the matches on the computer when their isn't an atmosphere at the dual and they might only want to really see one match.

 

But have you ever watched high school wrestling fans or college students that make their way into a dual? These students are not most excited by the top ranked wrestlers going at it. They love the dogfight and drama of a back and forth match. It always amazes me the matches that non-wrestling-junkies find the most exciting. It is always a back and forth match, and often the slopier the better. If a guy runs up a lead and then gasses the crowd is really into the match as the losing wrestler stages a comeback. These are the matches that people would post on here about in a disgusted manner but it is what the casual fans love. When we look at duals we find that the dual may come down to a .500 wrestler going all out against another .500 wrestler. The winner takes the dual and is a hero for their program and school. The crowd is behind them and all of a sudden those people know their name. This is the drama fans crave in sport and they want to be able to blindly follow a school without having to know all the wrestlers. Duals allow that. I know we all can be annoyed when new fans jump on these forums and only talk about their team and it is clear they don't know what they are talking about and blindly follow their team but this is what our sport needs! Tell me a sport that thrives were the teams aren't followed with annoying casual fans?

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So NCAA duals gets rid of title 9? Please show the data supporting this claim.

 

No, and neither does the status quo.

You can't keep riding that pony as an excuse.

 

If Title 9 is knocking programs down like you say, what can save them?

Data says Status quo can't.

 

You won't be happy until wrestling is a club sport for college age kids.

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Vak... What you are saying is accurate. I do understand that. Let's just say that after all of this the NCAA says "keep the NCAAs as they are".... they may. My question is how can we make the dual meet tournament better? The best teams are not showing up. What can we do to make them WANT to show up? It may well be nothing... I certainly dont have an answer.

The "Best" teams that don't show up act strictly in their own behalf.

It is B.S.

 

PSU fans think they can call themselves the best team and they go crazy when they are reminded that Minnesota beat them in their own gym last year in a "Team Event" format.

 

You'd think a champion would want to come back and prove they are the real champs and last year was another prime chance for this to happen.

 

The Next REAL TEAM Champion in any season will be the team that wins both.

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