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pennsyrules

Respect the Effort

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I had to write my thoughts on our wrestling fans. It is very disapointing for me to see the posts that put down the kids that work so hard to compete. I am fine with being disapointed with an effort, calling someone out for being out of shape, even rooting against kids from other schools. I think it is the joy that certain people get out of watching good kids lose that is most bothersome.

 

Either most of these posters have never wrestled or they were so good that they cannot comprehend how a kid can ever get his ass kicked. Well, I can say as a person who wrestled Division 1 and has had a kid who wrestled Division I that our sport is brutal and the emotions run high and low.

 

I watched the BU Open yesterday and watch quite a bit of wrestling and the effort that these kids put forth is amazing. So many heartbreaks for kids that work countless hours per week along with studying and dealing with college pressures. I will give one example and I don't know either kid. David Taylor is a beast and makes things look so easy. Visicaro from Rutgers is a tough kid who always gives 100% when I watch him wrestle. This kid is very competitive and I wouldn't doubt he could AA eventually. On paper, Taylor techfalled him and it was brutal. Maybe it's because I'm older now but I felt for Visicaro. He didn't lack for effort but was just in a position against someone superior and as frustrating as it was for him, he couldn't do anything. It was a total effort for a real good kid to just not get pinned. Those types of efforts happen every day in our sport and if more people would appreciate the good things about the sport and quit criticizing the athletes, we would be better off. If you haven't watched a college tournament, go watch and then see how quick you will be to criticize these kids.

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I had to write my thoughts on our wrestling fans. It is very disapointing for me to see the posts that put down the kids that work so hard to compete. I am fine with being disapointed with an effort, calling someone out for being out of shape, even rooting against kids from other schools. I think it is the joy that certain people get out of watching good kids lose that is most bothersome.

 

Either most of these posters have never wrestled or they were so good that they cannot comprehend how a kid can ever get his ass kicked. Well, I can say as a person who wrestled Division 1 and has had a kid who wrestled Division I that our sport is brutal and the emotions run high and low.

 

I watched the BU Open yesterday and watch quite a bit of wrestling and the effort that these kids put forth is amazing. So many heartbreaks for kids that work countless hours per week along with studying and dealing with college pressures. I will give one example and I don't know either kid. David Taylor is a beast and makes things look so easy. Visicaro from Rutgers is a tough kid who always gives 100% when I watch him wrestle. This kid is very competitive and I wouldn't doubt he could AA eventually. On paper, Taylor techfalled him and it was brutal. Maybe it's because I'm older now but I felt for Visicaro. He didn't lack for effort but was just in a position against someone superior and as frustrating as it was for him, he couldn't do anything. It was a total effort for a real good kid to just not get pinned. Those types of efforts happen every day in our sport and if more people would appreciate the good things about the sport and quit criticizing the athletes, we would be better off. If you haven't watched a college tournament, go watch and then see how quick you will be to criticize these kids.

 

Your reasoning, although truly noble, is a MAJOR part of why this sport is doomed to fringe following. What do you think fans of major DI schools say about high profile players in Football or Basketball when they perform poorly? One thing I think a fan should be 100% allowed to do is CRITICIZE their TEAM. If you spend the time and money on a product and don't get back the results you are expecting you have a right to complain. I think most, if not all, wrestling fans respect what DI wrestlers go through. However, that doesn't mean fans have to accept a less than average product.

 

You sound like a Purist. I respect that. However, I am selfish about College wrestling. I want it to be here when my kids are my age. I want it to flourish. We have too many rules about WHO can truly be a fan and WHAT a fan is. I don't necessarily wish for it to get as out of hand as the two sports I mentioned above. I would, however, like a happy median where we can have the Robin Ficker's of the world, the average fan, and the Purist all come together to give each team a solid fan base.

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If the only way a sport in the collegiate setting can survive is to have a "fan base" then one may have reason to ask why sports exist within academia at all. Wouldn't one think that the experience has been created for the benefit of the student athlete to begin with - as opposed to a fan base? I realize that fans do exist and I also realize that NCAA football and basketball have morphed into some creature that would be unrecognizable to those who originally introduced students to sports within the academic setting over 100 years ago, but just because they exist does not make it "right."

 

So, I can only hope that the system has not gone so mad that it decides which programs stay and which go based solely on fan support. Maybe going back to intramurals is the "right" path.

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Regarding "fan-bases", it's creepy for people in their 30's, 40's, 50's to follow college wrestling teams the way some do on this board that didn't go to the school or have a kid/relative wrestle there.

 

Then again, the same is true for pro sports. Get a life!

 

So fans of college or pro sports that they or a relative did not go to or play for are creepy and have no life? Interesting. What do you watch or participate in for entertainment? I have a feeling, if you are honest, that your interests are no less creepy or lifeless than what you intimated was.

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If the only way a sport in the collegiate setting can survive is to have a "fan base" then one may have reason to ask why sports exist within academia at all. Wouldn't one think that the experience has been created for the benefit of the student athlete to begin with - as opposed to a fan base? I realize that fans do exist and I also realize that NCAA football and basketball have morphed into some creature that would be unrecognizable to those who originally introduced students to sports within the academic setting over 100 years ago, but just because they exist does not make it "right."

 

So, I can only hope that the system has not gone so mad that it decides which programs stay and which go based solely on fan support. Maybe going back to intramurals is the "right" path.

 

 

Another Purist response. And again, I respect it. However, this is the real world. Cost benefit analysis. College Athletics have become a BUSINESS. The Athletic Department is as important to many schools as the Law Department is to Harvard. You may not like many of the business models. I don't. However, it is the undeniable truth. Fan bases create revenue.

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Regarding "fan-bases", it's creepy for people in their 30's, 40's, 50's to follow college wrestling teams the way some do on this board that didn't go to the school or have a kid/relative wrestle there.

 

Then again, the same is true for pro sports. Get a life!

 

So fans of college or pro sports that they or a relative did not go to or play for are creepy and have no life? Interesting. What do you watch or participate in for entertainment? I have a feeling, if you are honest, that your interests are no less creepy or lifeless than what you intimated was.

 

I think OMW makes a very valid point as far as "creepiness" goes. I don't think he is saying there is anything wrong with wanting to watch great collegiate wrestling and really have a interest in seeing your favorite team succeed (even if you didn't go there).

 

With that said, there is a fixation on certain kids that does border on creepy, especially when it comes to recruiting. Why should a random person who grows up in PA take a recruiting decision personally made by a certain in state recruit? Why do some fans really take joy when wrestlers from another team struggle? There is the obvious answer, that the recruiting hawks want to see their team have success in the future, and the haters just want to see their least favorite team fail. With that said, situations like this come off as "creepy" because there are men in their 40s who are obsessing/want to see the details of the lives of high school/college kids.

 

Is it possible to be a fan of your team without this fixation? Yes, and it's done by supporting the product on the mat. Is that a realistic expectation? Probably not, which is why we see this situation in all major sports as well, where it is usually much worse (ever see what happens on twitter when a recruit reneges on a verbal? It's ugly).

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Very well put Billyhoyle.

 

MSU - what you stated is not what was written.

 

“…the way some do on this board”, was.

 

Living through the team and their accomplishments and having it be an important part of who and what they are is what I was referring to – not all, but quite a few meet that.

 

Sure, I like to see Penn State do well - because I, along with the Marine Corps, paid (for me) to go there - but there is no reflected glory when the football or wrestling team wins. Just as I feel no failure if/when they lose.

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Very well put Billyhoyle.

 

MSU - what you stated is not what was written.

 

“…the way some do on this board”, was.

 

Living through the team and their accomplishments and having it be an important part of who and what they are is what I was referring to – not all, but quite a few meet that.

 

Sure, I like to see Penn State do well - because I, along with the Marine Corps, paid (for me) to go there - but there is no reflected glory when the football or wrestling team wins. Just as I feel no failure if/when they lose.

 

I see you are talking about fixation vs. a casual fan. You have to remember a lot of people live vicariously through something. When times are bad someone or something else doing well brings them satisfaction.

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I agree totally with Pennysrules.

 

Speaking for myself, I love watching wrestling at this level because I admire each and every one of these athletes for their ability, sacrifice, and dedication.

 

And I'm always dismayed when fans disrespect these wrestlers for whatever reason. 'Cause if they're not worthy of your respect, then they're not worth watching. So go watch something else.

 

I've always enjoyed going to the NCAA's because every time I have I've found myself at least once sitting right next to some wrestler's friend and family. Can you imagine trashing some kid while his mom is sitting right next to you? It's pretty much un-thinkable, right?

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I'll do you one better Brutus. Can you imagine some athlete and his dad trashing a rival school athlete's mom? I sure can. Then what if I told you that you and many other on this board worship that athlete. I'd call that creepy and awful personally. Call it whatever you want, but by the definition set above in this topic I'm with the creepos.

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All I can say is I respect and admire any kid (male or female) who puts their heart and soul into wrestling. It is an incredibly demanding sport which requires it's athletes to have incredible discipline and that is why many go on to have successful lives out in the world.

 

I would say most people who post on here are very respectful of the athletes. I also believe most people on here can be very disrespectful of other posters.

 

I certainly have my opinions, but as for the wrestlers, I respect each and every one of them.

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I am with MSU on this one. The major reason why some sports and sports teams have a large fan market is because they have figured out how to make the fan feel vested in that sports market.

 

For most, it is a proximal representation of themselves; the team represents the city in which the fan lives in. For others, it is because they identify with a trait or personality with a certain player or team. For some, having the venue to voice their critiques and opinions on the sport gives them both an outlet of their own personality and a vested interest to watch so they can form their opinions. In a nutshell, people will watch because they want to see athletes they love succeed, to see other athletes they hate fail, and to project their own personalities with fans of the sport.

 

None of these are morally better than the next. We need all of them for the sport to grow. That being said, you really have to chalk up a lot of these negative comments and opinions of inexperience with a grain of salt. I dont listen to my girlfriends opinion on how UFC fighters should train. I dont care about my little brothers opinion of what the Seahawks offensive line needs to do to get their running game going. I also dont listen to people who havent competed at the college level or higher tell me what athletes and coaches at the college level are doing right or wrong.

 

The price of a dual meet ticket is the same for NCAA champs and morons alike.

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Another Purist response. And again, I respect it. However, this is the real world. Cost benefit analysis. College Athletics have become a BUSINESS. The Athletic Department is as important to many schools as the Law Department is to Harvard. You may not like many of the business models. I don't. However, it is the undeniable truth. Fan bases create revenue.

 

How about this for a "realist" response. If NCAA sports are operating on a business model, then how in the world do they stay in business (http://blogs.democratandchronicle.com/watchdog/?p=2249)?

 

Oh yes, there is an answer, but it isn't based on any business model someone has thought up. You toss out terms such as "purist" and "truth" but I don't think you really understand them.

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Another Purist response. And again, I respect it. However, this is the real world. Cost benefit analysis. College Athletics have become a BUSINESS. The Athletic Department is as important to many schools as the Law Department is to Harvard. You may not like many of the business models. I don't. However, it is the undeniable truth. Fan bases create revenue.

 

How about this for a "realist" response. If NCAA sports are operating on a business model, then how in the world do they stay in business (http://blogs.democratandchronicle.com/watchdog/?p=2249)?

 

Oh yes, there is an answer, but it isn't based on any business model someone has thought up. You toss out terms such as "purist" and "truth" but I don't think you really understand them.

 

The fact you quoted the Democrat and Chronicle as your "SOURCE" shows me there is no point in us debating. The second fact that you arbitrarily decide I don't understand the words I use further proves that. I will give you 3 answers to simply outline my "UNDERSTANDING" of what I said. Then I am done responding.

 

1.) Even when the revenue brought in DIRECTLY from sports is not profitable the FAN BASE creates a SECOND revenue(plus many others) based by the STUDENTS who end up attending the school BECAUSE of the FAN BASE. Athletics is as big of a marketing tool for Universities as any other avenue.

 

2.) Purist-a person who insists on absolute adherence to traditional rules or structures. You stated why you believe sports were originally created in academia and that if "fan bases" are now the reason why sports exist it doesn't make it "right." Also you stated going back to intramural could be what it takes to make it "right.) You sound pretty absolute and traditional in your opinion. It also wasn't meant as an insult. I even said I respected your opinion. You then insulted my intelligence. Classy.

 

3.) My saying Athletic departments have become a business is not TRUE? Just because all are not profitable doesn't make it less true. How many businesses fail or file Bankruptcy and restructure? Are they not businesses? Fan bases don't create revenue? I even said I don't like many of the business models, but it doesn't make what I said ANY less true.

 

I will not argue with you any further. I said I respect your opinion and you, in turn, insulted my intelligence. There is no point arguing with someone like that. Have a nice day!

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The fact you quoted the Democrat and Chronicle as your "SOURCE" shows me there is no point in us debating. The second fact that you arbitrarily decide I don't understand the words I use further proves that. I will give you 3 answers to simply outline my "UNDERSTANDING" of what I said. Then I am done responding.

 

1.) Even when the revenue brought in DIRECTLY from sports is not profitable the FAN BASE creates a SECOND revenue(plus many others) based by the STUDENTS who end up attending the school BECAUSE of the FAN BASE. Athletics is as big of a marketing tool for Universities as any other avenue.

 

2.) Purist-a person who insists on absolute adherence to traditional rules or structures. You stated why you believe sports were originally created in academia and that if "fan bases" are now the reason why sports exist it doesn't make it "right." Also you stated going back to intramural could be what it takes to make it "right.) You sound pretty absolute and traditional in your opinion. It also wasn't meant as an insult. I even said I respected your opinion. You then insulted my intelligence. Classy.

 

3.) My saying Athletic departments have become a business is not TRUE? Just because all are not profitable doesn't make it less true. How many businesses fail or file Bankruptcy and restructure? Are they not businesses? Fan bases don't create revenue? I even said I don't like many of the business models, but it doesn't make what I said ANY less true.

 

I will not argue with you any further. I said I respect your opinion and you, in turn, insulted my intelligence. There is no point arguing with someone like that. Have a nice day!

 

I'm glad you aren't going to respond so that I can have the last word.

 

You are the one that introduced the notion of it being a business model - not me. I just said is wasn't a feasible business model and thus, maybe not a business model at all.

 

I didn't say we should return to an intramural system - I asked a question. You need to read more closely.

 

From which source did you actually get that definition of "purist"? Or was that something you just made up?

 

I respect your opinion. There, we are even, I said it too. So stop crying about it as if saying it makes it true. Disagreeing with a person and entering into a sincere debate does not equate to disrespect. You put some ideas out there, you should expect some push back. If you can't handle that then maybe you shouldn't post to begin with.

 

Catch you later.

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