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Picking US team

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it seems that some of our WTT winners can't win a match internationally. Gavin just got smoked by a kid that Raymond Jordan demolished last week at the NYAC. I believe he didn't place in some tournament this fall where 2 other US wrestlers finished with silver and bronze. I can't remember Haze beating anybody not from the America's. Should there be some other criteria for picking our #1.

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I agree. I thought for the olympics, strangler was our best bet by far for a medal, but Hazewinkle basically stalled his way onto the US team. He had no shot what so ever to ever even be considered a medal contender.

 

Gavin is a good guy and a good wrestler, but he has no shot to ever do anything internationally imo.

 

I think what they need to do is start sending these guys to more tournaments and have a pt system in place to give a results based team. Team trials would only be a part of the equation.

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If their is only one other guys at your trials weight that is a major threat to you it becomes a matter of game planning to beat them at the US Trials. Sure all the guys at the Trails are tough wrestlers, but in a few cases only one or two wrestlers are at the elite level of that it takes to make the team. Obviously, we have a few examples of guys that ended up losing on the OTC trials but over the previous year or two had a much more accomplished international resume. Haze had the luxury of Cejudo being added into Simmons side of things creating an additional issue Simmons had to deal with, as well. This game planning logic doesn't work in other weight though if you know ahead of time their will be two to three other studs in the bracket you have to face in the semi-finals or finals just to win. 60 and 74 (even with Burroughs being the favorite) come to mind here.

 

These issue are one of the main reason the freestyle coaches have went to a system where if you have shown a high level of international success by winning a major event, that your opponent will have to beat you at the Trials and then again on another occasion to make the team. While still not perfect, since individual game planning can occur, it does take away some aspects someone making the team because the stud had one bad match.

 

We do need to also remember their is another side of the coin here too. We have seen guys come out of the shadows to win the trials against a veteran and then do well in the Olympics or Worlds too. Not to mention the blind draw system of international wrestling is sometime a gift and sometimes a "mother...." which ends up skewing some of the wrestlers records.

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IMO, the major issue is the #1 ranked wrestler does not have to go through the gauntlet of a qualification tournament like some of the other wrestlers. Let's have a true national tournament where anyone in the USA may weigh-in and wrestle but it's fair for everyone. Seed the top 8 or 12 wrestlers based on past accomplishments and wrestle the tournament over two day's. We now have the number 1 ranked guy waiting to see who he will wrestle when he should have to wrestle just the same as everyone else. Iron sharpens iron every time!!!!

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I agree. I thought for the olympics, strangler was our best bet by far for a medal, but Hazewinkle basically stalled his way onto the US team. He had no shot what so ever to ever even be considered a medal contender.

 

Gavin is a good guy and a good wrestler, but he has no shot to ever do anything internationally imo.

 

I think what they need to do is start sending these guys to more tournaments and have a pt system in place to give a results based team. Team trials would only be a part of the equation.

 

You realize Haze took more shots in his match with Simmons right? Simmons' only offense is to counter shots. Haze did not give that to him and Simmons had no offense of his own to go to.

 

I have no problem with someone arguing Simmons was a better option internationally, but it is misleading to claim Hazewinkel stalled his way onto the team when Simmons has no offense of his own and only counters, and sits looking and waiting if his opponent doesn't oblige and create action for him.

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IMO, the major issue is the #1 ranked wrestler does not have to go through the gauntlet of a qualification tournament like some of the other wrestlers. Let's have a true national tournament where anyone in the USA may weigh-in and wrestle but it's fair for everyone. Seed the top 8 or 12 wrestlers based on past accomplishments and wrestle the tournament over two day's. We now have the number 1 ranked guy waiting to see who he will wrestle when he should have to wrestle just the same as everyone else. Iron sharpens iron every time!!!!

 

i don't agree with this. the wrestlers that sit in the finals do so because they won a prior event (the US Open).

 

you want the advantage of sitting in the finals of the WTT's? win the open.

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This is one of those topics that gets beaten to death every few weeks... I'll just point out that other countries such as Russia and Iran moving more towards a trials system and away from coaches decision. I'll grant that Haze and Gavin didn't do very well when they wrestled on the national team, but there will be disappointing preformances sometimes regardless of who is on the team... the guy Haze lost to at the Olympics was a world bronze medallist, chances are Simmons loses to him as well.

 

Sometimes the national champion will crap the bed at worlds. IF you picked a guy to make the team, the same would sometimes happen There is no sure fire solution but I would guess that the man who beats everyone else nationally is usually the best guy fr the job.

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There are many good points in this thread, but I believe that to make the World or Olympic team you have to show that you can do it internationally. The question is how do we do this? I would suggest that our guys all compete in as many big international tournaments, and dual meets as possible so that when it comes time the brain trust of USA wrestling can make an informed decision. If we look at Hazewinkle, no doubt he's great nationally but internationally has done very little. Gavin is also in the same boat.

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IMO, the major issue is the #1 ranked wrestler does not have to go through the gauntlet of a qualification tournament like some of the other wrestlers. Let's have a true national tournament where anyone in the USA may weigh-in and wrestle but it's fair for everyone. Seed the top 8 or 12 wrestlers based on past accomplishments and wrestle the tournament over two day's. We now have the number 1 ranked guy waiting to see who he will wrestle when he should have to wrestle just the same as everyone else. Iron sharpens iron every time!!!!

 

i don't agree with this. the wrestlers that sit in the finals do so because they won a prior event (the US Open).

 

you want the advantage of sitting in the finals of the WTT's? win the open.

What I want is for the wrestler with the "Hot Hand" to represent the USA in world competition not the wrestler with an easy path. IRON SHARPENS IRON EVERY TIME

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it seems that some of our WTT winners can't win a match internationally. Gavin just got smoked by a kid that Raymond Jordan demolished last week at the NYAC. I believe he didn't place in some tournament this fall where 2 other US wrestlers finished with silver and bronze. I can't remember Haze beating anybody not from the America's. Should there be some other criteria for picking our #1.

 

 

Vladislav Gabaraev gets teched by Raymond Jordan at the NYAC, Vladislav Gabaraev abuses Gavin for an 8-4 win yesterday. Vladislav Gabaraev gets teched by Clayton Foster today. This is more the rule vs exception at 84kg. I'm from Pa and a Gavin Fan.

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Not sure I'd be too confident in someone who can't beat Gavin at Trials.

 

If it were the other way around, you guys would complain that there should be trials once your 84 got bounced at Worlds/Olympics....

 

 

Yeah, but only if it was the other way around. :roll:

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I was at the NYAC and Raymond Jordan did not "demolish" that Russian. He was losing 2-0 and caught the Russian with the cow catcher and pinned him. So it was a pin not a tech. And Gavin was winning his match 4-0 at one point, saying he was "abused" is also inaccurate. You clearly didn't watch these matches.

 

Foster was very impressive today. I'm looking forward to seeing how he and Dake do in Baku this weekend. That should be a great tournament.

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This is what happened to Neal when McCoy game planned and beat him for the 2000 Olympic team. The reigning FILA wrestler of the year and World Champion was forced into the NFL.

 

Neal fully admits that he should have spent more time preparing for McCoy's leg-lace, but I always thought this was just a motivational thing to say to high school wrestlers.

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This is what happened to Neal when McCoy game planned and beat him for the 2000 Olympic team. The reigning FILA wrestler of the year and World Champion was forced into the NFL.

 

why wasnt neal getting ready for mccoy? if you just won a world championship, everybody who thinks they can be the best is game planning a way to beat you. defending starts with making the team.

 

or you could think of the national federation team trials as just a qualification tournament for the worlds.

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This is what happened to Neal when McCoy game planned and beat him for the 2000 Olympic team. The reigning FILA wrestler of the year and World Champion was forced into the NFL.

 

why wasnt neal getting ready for mccoy? if you just won a world championship, everybody who thinks they can be the best is game planning a way to beat you. defending starts with making the team.

 

I've met Neal a few times, and attended his clinic for HS kids once. Neal did a little mia culpa speech about how everyone knew McCoy had a killer leg-lace (his own weakness), and that he just had over confidence in defending it.

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Neal might have won more... or he might have been beateb by the same badk luck and superior competition that kept McKoy from winning a title.

 

My point is not that the national champion will always do the best internationally. But I do think a trial will pick out the best guy MOST of the time, with a lot less controversy than picking a team. Part of winning a trials tournament is dealing with pressure and with opponents who are peaking. This is an invaluable skill. There are always some wierd results during the season (remember GAvin teching Sokhiev, anyone?) that are unlikely to be repeated when everyone is at their best (ie Simmons beating Velikov and then losing to him at worlds).

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Neal might have won more... or he might have been beateb by the same badk luck and superior competition that kept McKoy from winning a title.

 

My point is not that the national champion will always do the best internationally. But I do think a trial will pick out the best guy MOST of the time, with a lot less controversy than picking a team. Part of winning a trials tournament is dealing with pressure and with opponents who are peaking. This is an invaluable skill. There are always some wierd results during the season (remember GAvin teching Sokhiev, anyone?) that are unlikely to be repeated when everyone is at their best (ie Simmons beating Velikov and then losing to him at worlds).

But then you have guys having to peak for the trials instead of the Worlds or Olympics.

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I think it's possible to peak 2x in a year, like they try to do now. However, not everyone is at their best for all the other tournaments. Some European guys in particular seem to lay off the cardiovascular training until the big tournaments.

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meh, a lot of it has to do with our highly litigious/lawsuit happy society.

 

Imagine if we started sending guys to the olympics who had lost at trials but who the coaches thought would do better against international competition than the trial champ.

 

You'd have the trial champs suing to get on the team because they had won and were entitled to be on the team.

 

Gotta be politically correct after all. Can't truthfully acknowledge that just because a person won trials doesn't mean he's gonna do better against international competition. Gotta pretend whoever wins trials is the "best" choice to send to the worlds/olympics.

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