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brianj

Koll- Dake vs Taylor

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A little historical perspective is in order here...

 

November 2008... Brent Metcalf defeats Darrion Caldwell 19-3 at the NWCA ALL-STAR Classic

 

4 months later March 2009... Caldwell defeats Metcalf 11-6 at NCAA finals

 

March 2011... Nick Amuchastegui wins by default over Ed Ruth in NCAA quarterfinals after leading 9-2

 

1 year later March 2012... Ruth defeats Amuchastegui 13-2 in the NCAA finals

 

April 2012... Kyle Dake defeats David Taylor 5-0, Fall 1:28 at the US Olympic trials

 

7 months later November 2012... ?????

 

I don't see Taylor turning the tables on Dake and winning convincingly but I also don't see a US trials repeat - definitely somewhere in between. A lot has been mentioned about Dake wrestling with the Olympic team - the "room" Taylor wrestles in is not too shappy either.

 

I see a great match going down to the wire.

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While Dake smashed Taylor, if you watch the trials matches Taylor made huge tactical errors like trying to stay in bounds on his knees before he got whipped to his back. Later, he hung on a single way too long trying to get a push out (I think) and then got cut back for the fall. These were big mistakes.

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Not referring to FS match, that is a direct result and I whole heartedly agree with you.

 

I am referring to DSJ as the reference point between Folkstyle abilities.

A beats B by 10

C beats B by 8

Therefore A beats C

 

Doesn't work that way in sports, especially in wrestling.

 

Correct.

 

But saying you can infer nothing from similar opponents is nonsense. You can't offhand say A beats C because he beat B by more points, but you can also in no way say that C is a cut above A (who has 1 career NCAA loss) simply by disregarding similar opponents and citing a head to head match up in a different style.

 

"A takedown is a takedown"...yes...but the way you approach it or the resulting points are totally different in Free vs Folk.

 

Example: You should a double leg and get elevated through, then roll over and end up on top in control.

 

Possible Freestyle score: 3-1 bottom man.

Folkstyle score: 2-0 top man.

 

Pretty big difference, wouldnt you say???

 

That's all nice and dandy hyperbole but that's not what happened. So let's actually talk about what happened in their match clean take downs and then turns.

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A little historical perspective is in order here...

 

November 2008... Brent Metcalf defeats Darrion Caldwell 19-3 at the NWCA ALL-STAR Classic

 

4 months later March 2009... Caldwell defeats Metcalf 11-6 at NCAA finals

 

March 2011... Nick Amuchastegui wins by default over Ed Ruth in NCAA quarterfinals after leading 9-2

 

1 year later March 2012... Ruth defeats Amuchastegui 13-2 in the NCAA finals

 

April 2012... Kyle Dake defeats David Taylor 5-0, Fall 1:28 at the US Olympic trials

 

7 months later November 2012... ?????

 

I don't see Taylor turning the tables on Dake and winning convincingly but I also don't see a US trials repeat - definitely somewhere in between. A lot has been mentioned about Dake wrestling with the Olympic team - the "room" Taylor wrestles in is not too shappy either.

 

I see a great match going down to the wire.

 

I too see your argument ... but remember Metcalf got decked by Caldwell before the all-star match. But that's all beside the point, I actually always thought Caldwell was better than Metcalf, and certainly had much bigger upside. People trounce on me for saying this, but I feel the same way about Dake. It's not just the FS match , it's that Dake wins despite of ... even against opponents who are good enough to beat him. I just simply think DAke is more talented end of story. Everyone is entitled to their opinioin.

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Not referring to FS match, that is a direct result and I whole heartedly agree with you.

 

I am referring to DSJ as the reference point between Folkstyle abilities.

A beats B by 10

C beats B by 8

Therefore A beats C

 

Doesn't work that way in sports, especially in wrestling.

 

Correct.

 

But saying you can infer nothing from similar opponents is nonsense. You can't offhand say A beats C because he beat B by more points, but you can also in no way say that C is a cut above A (who has 1 career NCAA loss) simply by disregarding similar opponents and citing a head to head match up in a different style.

 

"A takedown is a takedown"...yes...but the way you approach it or the resulting points are totally different in Free vs Folk.

 

Example: You should a double leg and get elevated through, then roll over and end up on top in control.

 

Possible Freestyle score: 3-1 bottom man.

Folkstyle score: 2-0 top man.

 

Pretty big difference, wouldnt you say???

 

That's all nice and dandy hyperbole but that's not what happened. So let's actually talk about what happened in their match clean take downs and then turns.

 

Its not meant to be hyperbole. You said "a takedown is a takedown". You were implying that freestyle and folkstyle directly correlate in that way. I was illustrating how they clearly do not.

 

Saying "a takedown is a takedown" in this context is just inaccurate and wrong, and it is very obvious why if you pay attention to both styles.

 

Last point, clean take downs and then turns? Not exactly. I haven't watched the match in a while, but I do remember specifically one scoring sequence where the points would have been totally different were it a folkstyle match. This is besides the point however, I just felt the need to comment on it.

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Nelson, if you have enough common opponents, this line of thinking works fairley well, imo. Certainly it's not perfect, but what is? Even actual head-to-head results don't always work.

 

 

Common Opponent is more relavant than Head to Head???????

 

I am sorry it took me this long to learn.

I will no longer try to have a logical arguement with you, it isn't possible.

 

my god, talk about an epic reading comprehension failure.

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Here's another thought on this. Do you want to be the winner of this match given that you have 2 more to go the rest of the year? I don't like the prospect of anyone beating Dake or Taylor 3x in one year. If you win this one, you are 1-0 in exhibition. If you lose, you add even more fuel to the fire for the loser.

 

I imagine the match will be very close regardless of who wins. I give the slight edge to Dake only due to his weight. I think it will be easier for him to drop to 165 earlier in the season than Taylor. However, Taylor looks pretty lean and maybe others know better whether has any issues with cutting to 165. I think Taylor currently has superior practice partnerw too and Dake may come in over confident. Not sure he will be getting the same kid who wrestled in FS last summer.

 

I'll bet on Dake but that's cause I'm a homer for CU. It will be interesting to see if Kyle has a renewed focus on 157 if he gets beat.

 

It will be interesting what role conditioning plays so early in the year.

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There are certainly huge differences between FS and Folk. I was at the Oly Trials and saw THE match, I just don't see Taylor beating Dake in either style at this point. In a couple years maybe. Course I have been wrong before. 165 will be a different animal for Dake but he proved to handle wrestling at the weight (163) pretty well at the Trials. Dake is awfully fun to watch you think you have him... that's where the wrestling begins. Dake is a great scrambler.

Got my airline tickets for CKLV yesterday!! Gotta get outta Alaska every once in awhile.

Got a 58" moose a week and a half ago!! nearly 700 pounds of meat in the freezer.

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Maybe David Taylor is still thinking about going down to 157?

 

 

I was thinking this exact same thing.

Dake will be at 157 before Taylor. I predict by March that Dake will be going for and winning number 4 at 157.

 

That doesn't at all sound like the plan Koll laid out in the interview, totally the opposite in fact.

 

Sounds like Dake is certainly not finished after his NCAA career. He has much loftier goals ahead of him, and he wants to face the best competition possible to prepare for those goals. That means going 165 and facing Taylor, where coincidentally he can also be the first in history to win 4 titles at 4 weights.

 

I understand a coach selling his guy, but if even half of the things Koll said about Dake are partially true, the kid is awesome and has 100% the right frame of mind.

 

Im rooting for and betting on Taylor by the way, I don't want that to get lost in all my Dake praise! :D

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Nelson, if you have enough common opponents, this line of thinking works fairley well, imo. Certainly it's not perfect, but what is? Even actual head-to-head results don't always work.

 

 

Common Opponent is more relavant than Head to Head???????

 

I am sorry it took me this long to learn.

I will no longer try to have a logical arguement with you, it isn't possible.

 

my god, talk about an epic reading comprehension failure.

 

 

What flung tiger is having troubles articulating, is no results matter to him when he has formed an emotional opinion on something.

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I am not sure why many people here are expecting a low scoring match. Based on both of their styles and the amount of points Dake scored in the short freestyle match, I predict something along the lines of a 10-7 score or even possibly both wrestlers in the double digits. It would not surprise me at all to see both wrestlers score back points in this match.

 

I can't wait!!

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Mokoma-I wouldn't be surprised at all if that happens. I predicted a low scoring match, I don't expect anything. When two guys like this get together it's impossible for anyone to accurately predict how it will go. Some people will be right in their predictions, but they had no more idea than the people with wrong predictions.

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I was thinking this exact same thing.

Dake will be at 157 before Taylor. I predict by March that Dake will be going for and winning number 4 at 157.

 

That doesn't at all sound like the plan Koll laid out in the interview, totally the opposite in fact.

 

Sounds like Dake is certainly not finished after his NCAA career. He has much loftier goals ahead of him, and he wants to face the best competition possible to prepare for those goals. That means going 165 and facing Taylor, where coincidentally he can also be the first in history to win 4 titles at 4 weights.

 

I understand a coach selling his guy, but if even half of the things Koll said about Dake are partially true, the kid is awesome and has 100% the right frame of mind.

 

Im rooting for and betting on Taylor by the way, I don't want that to get lost in all my Dake praise! :D

 

It ain't at 163, cause as good as I think Dake is , I think Burroughs is that much more talented. Burroughs has the talent to be the greatest wrestler the US has ever produced ... and even despite his international success, he's got enough talent that it could get to the point where a 2x WC like Tsargush couldn't even touch him. And Tsargush if not for Burroughs would have likely been working on his 4th WC in a row including 1 Olympic and he's the same age as Burroughs to give you an idea how good is Tsargush.

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I am not sure why many people here are expecting a low scoring match. Based on both of their styles and the amount of points Dake scored in the short freestyle match, I predict something along the lines of a 10-7 score or even possibly both wrestlers in the double digits. It would not surprise me at all to see both wrestlers score back points in this match.

 

I can't wait!!

 

 

I would agree with this - still think Dake has the upoer hand but with 7 months to mull it over, prepare and re-focus Taylor will be game.

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