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Logan Steiber will win the Hodge this year

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Yeah and those last two titles were dominant with no controversy.

 

A win is a win, and most certainly better than a loss, even to one of the three best of all time. If Logie Bear (I know, I know) gets his third while DT gets his second, and Logie Bear ends the season with a 100% NCAA finals record in which he unseated an NCAA champ once while DT ends with 50% at best having beat no NCAA champs, I think that is more than a little significant.

 

Looking at all the criteria, so far, Logie Bear has the lead, DT is a clear second, and Ruth is not even in the picture.

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Yeah and those last two titles were dominant with no controversy.

 

Last year's win was only controversial if you wanted it to be. He won by three, some of you think maybe Ramos deserved a two point near fall. Logan is like 7-0 against him, I don't see why if Ramos gets the nearfall that Stieber doesn't go on to victory. And if we're talking dominance, has any of the other four-timers ever pinned and teched their way to the finals? No.

 

As for his final against Oliver- my response to that would be that while I would concede that the call at the end could have gone either way, few observers would contend that Stieber did not out-wrestle Oliver in that match. Furthermore, none of the four timers had nearly as good of a finals opponent their freshman year as did Logan in Jordan Oliver- that is beyond debate (Montell Marion? Brandon Eggum?). Yes I know that Eggum later won a silver medal at worlds but nobody can argue that a sophomore Brandon Eggum is better than a Jordan Oliver was as a junior.

 

Two caveats to the above- Logan Stieber is not a four-timer yet, and I would not suggest at the midway mark of a wrestler's career that he deserves to be called as good or better than the other four-timers.

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Yeah and those last two titles were dominant with no controversy.

 

Last year's win was only controversial if you wanted it to be. He won by three, some of you think maybe Ramos deserved a two point near fall. Logan is like 7-0 against him, I don't see why if Ramos gets the nearfall that Stieber doesn't go on to victory. And if we're talking dominance, has any of the other four-timers ever pinned and teched their way to the finals? No.

 

As for his final against Oliver- my response to that would be that while I would concede that the call at the end could have gone either way, few observers would contend that Stieber did not out-wrestle Oliver in that match. Furthermore, none of the four timers had nearly as good of a finals opponent their freshman year as did Logan in Jordan Oliver- that is beyond debate (Montell Marion? Brandon Eggum?). Yes I know that Eggum later won a silver medal at worlds but nobody can argue that a sophomore Brandon Eggum is better than a Jordan Oliver was as a junior.

 

Two caveats to the above- Logan Stieber is not a four-timer yet, and I would not suggest at the midway mark of a wrestler's career that he deserves to be called as good or better than the other four-timers.

 

Stieber is great, but let's not forget that Dake and Pat Smith were true freshman when they won their titles. Logan didn't beat anyone of Marion's or Schleicher' caliber as a true freshman.

 

Also, let's not be selective with the data concerning "dominance". I could easily mention that Cael and Smith went undefeated in their second years of college wrestling while Stieber lost to Dardanes.

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Looking at all the criteria, so far, Logie Bear has the lead, DT is a clear second, and Ruth is not even in the picture.

 

Agree with this. Ruth would've been a contender, but Hodge criteria would factor in a DUI, eliminating him.

 

Too early to say, but it looks like a two horse race. If both run the table with comparable dominance, would give a slight edge to Stieber. Why? DT already won once, and Stieber is going for 3 for 3. DT is 1 for 3 so far.

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Yeah and those last two titles were dominant with no controversy.

 

Last year's win was only controversial if you wanted it to be. He won by three, some of you think maybe Ramos deserved a two point near fall. Logan is like 7-0 against him, I don't see why if Ramos gets the nearfall that Stieber doesn't go on to victory. And if we're talking dominance, has any of the other four-timers ever pinned and teched their way to the finals? No.

 

As for his final against Oliver- my response to that would be that while I would concede that the call at the end could have gone either way, few observers would contend that Stieber did not out-wrestle Oliver in that match. Furthermore, none of the four timers had nearly as good of a finals opponent their freshman year as did Logan in Jordan Oliver- that is beyond debate (Montell Marion? Brandon Eggum?). Yes I know that Eggum later won a silver medal at worlds but nobody can argue that a sophomore Brandon Eggum is better than a Jordan Oliver was as a junior.

 

Two caveats to the above- Logan Stieber is not a four-timer yet, and I would not suggest at the midway mark of a wrestler's career that he deserves to be called as good or better than the other four-timers.

 

Stieber is great, but let's not forget that Dake and Pat Smith were true freshman when they won their titles. Logan didn't beat anyone of Marion's or Schleicher' caliber as a true freshman.

 

Also, let's not be selective with the data concerning "dominance". I could easily mention that Cael and Smith went undefeated in their second years of college wrestling while Stieber lost to Dardanes.

 

Fair points. On the true freshman thing though- I think it's something of a myth that Logan definitively could not have won as a true freshman. Due to have one very bad day for whatever reason at Vegas that year- the standard view seems to be that he just hit some kind of a new level magically one year later. In fact, prior to college he'd already beaten Sam Hazewinkel, and come within three seconds of beat Angel Escobedo. Reasonable minds can disagree as to whether these guys are better than McDonough (I think they are, but McDonough has better career folk credentials) but if he could go with him, it's certainly possible he could have beaten McDonough. A month or two after NCAA's he double teched two NCAA Champions from higher weights (Matt Valenti and Derek Moore). So it's very possible imo that he wins the title as a true freshman without a redshirt. Of course, that's all speculative.

 

I hear you on the playing with the data in regard to dominance. Something about a poster addressing Steiber as not being "dominant" because he had a very tight match with JORDAN OLIVER (himself one of the very best of his era, I think we can all agree) and a reasonably close one with the excellent Tony Ramos just seemed like it needed a response correcting the record.

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Lets not get ahead of ourselves and start using those criteria for guessing who wins the Hodge. Each year they seem to come up with which guy they want to give the award to and then simply shape the criteria to fit their agenda. I recall an unedefeated National champ being snubbed for a guy who was pinned in a spladle while he counted the lights on the ceiling. Or Oliver being snubbed in spit of his pin total. And let us not forget Jake Varners resume being virtually ignored in picking a guy who escaped with the narrowest of wins in the NCAA final. Gentlemen, this award means less and less with each passing head scratcher and that's a shame. Who wins the award this season? I'm going with a lower division disabled wrestler this time around.

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Lets not get ahead of ourselves and start using those criteria for guessing who wins the Hodge. Each year they seem to come up with which guy they want to give the award to and then simply shape the criteria to fit their agenda. I recall an unedefeated National champ being snubbed for a guy who was pinned in a spladle while he counted the lights on the ceiling. Or Oliver being snubbed in spit of his pin total. And let us not forget Jake Varners resume being virtually ignored in picking a guy who escaped with the narrowest of wins in the NCAA final. Gentlemen, this award means less and less with each passing head scratcher and that's a shame. Who wins the award this season? I'm going with a lower division disabled wrestler this time around.

This is kind of right, but to less of an extent than you're asserting. Gavin didn't really get "snubbed" since he had far less bonus victories against far lesser competition than Metcalf did, and Metcalf's loss was early in the season. So there's an argument for Gavin (the only undefeated wrestler that season I believe btw) but in most people's opinion Metcalf's argument was superior, and I'm saying that as someone very far from an Iowa fan. Oliver's pin total was barely higher than the other major contenders and he faced (and thus defeated) less ranked opponents with less bonus point victories. He may have had as strong an argument as others, but it wasn't as clear-cut controversial as you're presenting it. Varner would have been my pick over Ness, because he was so clearly the better overall wrestler, but he did have less pins and the closeness of an NCAA finals match doesn't factor into the criteria, so Ness had a strong argument too.

 

The problem is that the criteria does not clearly delineate what weight should be awarded to each accomplishment (other than the 1-7 order). Though many believe that the best wrestler should simply win the award without all the unnecessary complications, I'm mixed because it would make the award a foregone conclusion many years (also susceptible to plenty of bias). Consider the fact that this is not a problem unique to wrestling, the MVP in baseball has ambiguous criteria but according to many that makes the debate far more interesting than simply awarding it to the best player (or in this case wrestler) every single year.

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Taylor Walsh (IU) 20-0 17 falls

 

Have you looked at who he's wrestled? One guy--Chino--is ranked. Walsh is tough but for the most part he's wrestled a JV schedule.

 

So if Walsh ends up with 30+ pins this year you don't think he will be in the discussion?

Last 6 years D1 pin leaders. These guys didn't wrestle tough schedules either and Walsh is blowing them away.

 

08-Caldwell 20

09-Josh Patterson 22

10-Hudson Taylor 24

11-Kokesh 19

12- Pena 20

13-Hunter Weber 20

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So if Walsh ends up with 30+ pins this year you don't think he will be in the discussion?

Last 6 years D1 pin leaders. These guys didn't wrestle tough schedules either and Walsh is blowing them away.

 

08-Caldwell 20

09-Josh Patterson 22

10-Hudson Taylor 24

11-Kokesh 19

12- Pena 20

13-Hunter Weber 20

 

jammen, take note none of those guys won the Hodge either. Walsh will only be there if he is unbeaten, because that is what this is going to take. Three or four weights have dominant wrestlers any which can run the table.

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Yeah and those last two titles were dominant with no controversy.

 

Last year's win was only controversial if you wanted it to be. He won by three, some of you think maybe Ramos deserved a two point near fall.

 

I think there are quite a few people that thought it was a pin.......and the 2 were not important.

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Taylor Walsh (IU) 20-0 17 falls

 

Have you looked at who he's wrestled? One guy--Chino--is ranked. Walsh is tough but for the most part he's wrestled a JV schedule.

 

So if Walsh ends up with 30+ pins this year you don't think he will be in the discussion?

Last 6 years D1 pin leaders. These guys didn't wrestle tough schedules either and Walsh is blowing them away.

 

08-Caldwell 20

09-Josh Patterson 22

10-Hudson Taylor 24

11-Kokesh 19

12- Pena 20

13-Hunter Weber 20

 

 

He's wrestled no one. And I mean...no one. His three non pins were all victories by decision over guys like Chino and Languis. Neither one of those guys is a serious AA contender. Walsh is good at pinning inferior competition. Credit to him for being a pinner. Let's see him AA first. Then we'll consider if he has a shot at the Hodge.

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Lets not get ahead of ourselves and start using those criteria for guessing who wins the Hodge. Each year they seem to come up with which guy they want to give the award to and then simply shape the criteria to fit their agenda. I recall an unedefeated National champ being snubbed for a guy who was pinned in a spladle while he counted the lights on the ceiling. Or Oliver being snubbed in spit of his pin total. And let us not forget Jake Varners resume being virtually ignored in picking a guy who escaped with the narrowest of wins in the NCAA final. Gentlemen, this award means less and less with each passing head scratcher and that's a shame. Who wins the award this season? I'm going with a lower division disabled wrestler this time around.

This is kind of right, but to less of an extent than you're asserting. Gavin didn't really get "snubbed" since he had far less bonus victories against far lesser competition than Metcalf did, and Metcalf's loss was early in the season. So there's an argument for Gavin (the only undefeated wrestler that season I believe btw) but in most people's opinion Metcalf's argument was superior, and I'm saying that as someone very far from an Iowa fan. Oliver's pin total was barely higher than the other major contenders and he faced (and thus defeated) less ranked opponents with less bonus point victories. He may have had as strong an argument as others, but it wasn't as clear-cut controversial as you're presenting it. Varner would have been my pick over Ness, because he was so clearly the better overall wrestler, but he did have less pins and the closeness of an NCAA finals match doesn't factor into the criteria, so Ness had a strong argument too.

 

The problem is that the criteria does not clearly delineate what weight should be awarded to each accomplishment (other than the 1-7 order). Though many believe that the best wrestler should simply win the award without all the unnecessary complications, I'm mixed because it would make the award a foregone conclusion many years (also susceptible to plenty of bias). Consider the fact that this is not a problem unique to wrestling, the MVP in baseball has ambiguous criteria but according to many that makes the debate far more interesting than simply awarding it to the best player (or in this case wrestler) every single year.

-------

 

Just to flesh out the point about competition. The year Metcalf won, the following were his competition at 149#:

 

Bubba Jenkens

Jordan Burroughs

Josh Churella

Darrian Caldwell

JP O'Connor

Dustin Schlatter

Lance Palmer

 

This was undoubtedly the strongest weight class that year. 5 of those guys were at some point, national champs themselves. Each multiple AA awards. Metcalf scored more pins and bonus than Gavin despite having a far tougher weight class. While a case could be made for the undefeated Gavin, the Hodge committee considered the dominance and competition important enough to give it to Metcalf.

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Lets not get ahead of ourselves and start using those criteria for guessing who wins the Hodge. Each year they seem to come up with which guy they want to give the award to and then simply shape the criteria to fit their agenda. I recall an unedefeated National champ being snubbed for a guy who was pinned in a spladle while he counted the lights on the ceiling. Or Oliver being snubbed in spit of his pin total. And let us not forget Jake Varners resume being virtually ignored in picking a guy who escaped with the narrowest of wins in the NCAA final. Gentlemen, this award means less and less with each passing head scratcher and that's a shame. Who wins the award this season? I'm going with a lower division disabled wrestler this time around.

This is kind of right, but to less of an extent than you're asserting. Gavin didn't really get "snubbed" since he had far less bonus victories against far lesser competition than Metcalf did, and Metcalf's loss was early in the season. So there's an argument for Gavin (the only undefeated wrestler that season I believe btw) but in most people's opinion Metcalf's argument was superior, and I'm saying that as someone very far from an Iowa fan. Oliver's pin total was barely higher than the other major contenders and he faced (and thus defeated) less ranked opponents with less bonus point victories. He may have had as strong an argument as others, but it wasn't as clear-cut controversial as you're presenting it. Varner would have been my pick over Ness, because he was so clearly the better overall wrestler, but he did have less pins and the closeness of an NCAA finals match doesn't factor into the criteria, so Ness had a strong argument too.

 

The problem is that the criteria does not clearly delineate what weight should be awarded to each accomplishment (other than the 1-7 order). Though many believe that the best wrestler should simply win the award without all the unnecessary complications, I'm mixed because it would make the award a foregone conclusion many years (also susceptible to plenty of bias). Consider the fact that this is not a problem unique to wrestling, the MVP in baseball has ambiguous criteria but according to many that makes the debate far more interesting than simply awarding it to the best player (or in this case wrestler) every single year.

-------

 

Just to flesh out the point about competition. The year Metcalf won, the following were his competition at 149#:

 

Bubba Jenkens

Jordan Burroughs

Josh Churella

Darrian Caldwell

JP O'Connor

Dustin Schlatter

Lance Palmer

 

This was undoubtedly the strongest weight class that year. 5 of those guys were at some point, national champs themselves. Each multiple AA awards. Metcalf scored more pins and bonus than Gavin despite having a far tougher weight class. While a case could be made for the undefeated Gavin, the Hodge committee considered the dominance and competition important enough to give it to Metcalf.

And you didn't even mention Ryan Lang, a 3x AAer going for his fourth who was McDonoughed.

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Ohh…in my most humble opinion….methinks that it is early. Perhaps waaay early to do 'Hodge talk'. I do love the 'bandy a-bout' for that award-as- the season draws to a close.

 

It is with that notion that I share with you my most fun 2 hrs for this current wk-end :

 

The Buckeyes of THE Ohio State University roll into Happy Valley.……to take on THE professor, and his band of bruisers.

My guide indicates that the D M is televised LIVE, and in LIVING COLOR. Starts at 10 am here in the 'Old Pueblo'.

That should be about……what (?) a 2 or 3pm start for you guys back east ? Okay, lets wrestle.

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Ohh…in my most humble opinion….methinks that it is early. Perhaps waaay early to do 'Hodge talk'. I do love the 'bandy a-bout' for that award-as- the season draws to a close.

 

It is with that notion that I share with you my most fun 2 hrs for this current wk-end :

 

The Buckeyes of THE Ohio State University roll into Happy Valley.……to take on THE professor, and his band of bruisers.

My guide indicates that the D M is televised LIVE, and in LIVING COLOR. Starts at 10 am here in the 'Old Pueblo'.

That should be about……what (?) a 2 or 3pm start for you guys back east ? Okay, lets wrestle.

 

Denny you are one interesting dude. What was the point of your post? To tell us that it is early in the season you are going to watch wrestling this weekend?

 

FWIW, I think Taylor will win it. Logan is tough as nails but I think Taylor bonuses the entire season and Logan has one or two close ones.

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Yo Phish ,

 

Good reply to my well thought out post. I will get back at your questions. I need to sleep on it. It's late.

 

I refuse to ramble 'off topic' (or is it too late) ? Ohhh, and by the by -- Nelson starts to dominate a little more,has a great tourney in Okie City……and the 'big award' is his. Yep, it's time for a big guy (3 timer) to pick up that Hodge……. and take it back to Minny.

 

Your daily tip from the top

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