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Logan Steiber will win the Hodge this year

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How about Schopp for the Hodge? If he wins out over Ramos I could see him as a serious contender for it. Dude pins like crazy.

 

That would be pretty cool.

 

But if I had to place a bet on the Hodge, I'd go with the Magicman. David Taylor is must see TV. You can have Johnny Manziel.

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i think andrew howe is stil in contention for hodge, mainly due to the strength of 174 compared to noone at 165

 

can't help but chuckle at this....you do know that one of those nobodys at 165 knocked off Howe in his last NCAA appearance, right?

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i think andrew howe is stil in contention for hodge, mainly due to the strength of 174 compared to noone at 165

 

can't help but chuckle at this....you do know that one of those nobodys at 165 knocked off Howe in his last NCAA appearance, right?

 

when he had a torn hamstring. I am not a fan of andrew howe hate the style he wrestles, but too just hand taylor the hodge is ubsurd. the competition at 174 and 125 is far superior to 165 its not even a debate.

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i think andrew howe is stil in contention for hodge, mainly due to the strength of 174 compared to noone at 165

 

can't help but chuckle at this....you do know that one of those nobodys at 165 knocked off Howe in his last NCAA appearance, right?

 

I don't think anyone was calling the field of 165 a bunch of nobodys. It is just GLARINGLY obvious that the top 6 at 174 are SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than the top 6 at 165. You have 2 NCAA champs in Howe and Perry. Brown is a returning finalist. Kokesh is the returning 3rd place finisher. Storley is a 2xaa and is currently a True Junior. Returning, and currently undefeated, AA Evans has shown he is right there with anyone listed above. If you want to you can even throw in returning AA Cody Walters to show depth.

 

Every Taylor fan gets offended when his weight's depth gets pointed out. It is not his fault. Although, you could say some have avoided 165 because of him. Caldwell is the only elite wrestler in his weight class and 174 has 6 guys comparable to Caldwell. Taylor will destroy everyone, quite possibly including Caldwell, but that does not change the fact 174 is much deeper.

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i think andrew howe is stil in contention for hodge, mainly due to the strength of 174 compared to noone at 165

 

can't help but chuckle at this....you do know that one of those nobodys at 165 knocked off Howe in his last NCAA appearance, right?

 

I don't think anyone was calling the field of 165 as nobodys. It is just GLARINGLY obvious that the top 6 at 174 is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than the top 6 at 165. You have 2 NCAA champs in Howe and Perry. Brown is a returning finalist. Kokesh is the returning 3rd place finisher. Storley is a 2xaa and is currently a True Junior. Returning, and currently undefeated, AA Evans has shown he is right there with anyone listed above. If you want to you can even throw in returning AA Cody Walters to show depth.

 

Every Taylor fan gets offended when his weight's depth gets pointed out. It is not his fault. Although, you could say some have avoided 165 because of him. Caldwell is the only elite wrestler in his weight class and 174 has 6 guys comparable to Caldwell. Taylor will destroy everyone, quite possibly including Caldwell, but that does not change the fact 174 is much deeper.

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Lost,

 

This is a joke right? I know this weight was decent, but it was not even close to the strongest of all time.

 

Sure, these wrestlers ended up pretty successful on the college level, but at the time of this bracket, this group was largely unproven.

 

"Unproven???" You're trolling right? Schlatter was a returning champ, Churella was a returning finalist as was Ryan Lang. None of those guys even made the top 3, because some of the "unproven" guys you are talking about (Metcalf, Burroughs, Jenkins) placed ahead of them. 3 "unproven" guys who combined had 7 finals appearances in their career.

 

You might be able to find a weight class or two throughout the years that had a more "proven" top 3, but you certainly wont find one that was as deep top to bottom.

Actually, I think Mokoma makes a fair point. Note that Rossel3 indicated that, of the following talented guys that year, 5 were at some point national champs themselves:

 

Jordan Burroughs

Josh Churella

Darrian Caldwell

JP O'Connor

Dustin Schlatter

Lance Palmer

 

What he failed to mention is that 4 of those 5 championships all came later in their careers after those wrestlers moved up in weight (except Caldwell, who won his title over Metcalf). And Schlatter wasn't a returning champ, but a former champ who finished 3rd the previous year. IIRC, he was already injured and finished lower each subsequent year.

 

Arguably then, none of the 5 champs mentioned were at their peaks in 2008. In fact, entering the tournament, the majority of them had not yet achieved All-American status. Therefore, Mokoma's point that "at the time of this bracket, this group was largely unproven" has merit.

 

----------------------

 

If one wants to say that performances by wrestlers following 2008 shouldn't count, that's fine. Afterall, the 2008 Hodge committee can't see the future. But then let's apply that to Gavin's weight class as well as Metcalf's, since those were the two leaders for the Hodge. What do we see? Well even there, one can still see a significant difference between 149# and 174# weight classes.

 

Here are relevant stats, concerning only what came before 2008:

 

in Metcalf's weight - 1 former champ (Schlatter)

2 former runnerups (Churella, Lang)

8 AA finishes (by Schlatter x2, Churella, Lang x2, O'Connor, Palmer, Hall, Fisch)

 

in Gavin's weight - 0 former champs

0 runnerups

3 AA finishes (Stolpinski, Luke, Sinott)

 

Jmho, but when talking about all time toughest brackets, I think it is reasonable to consider career totals. I don't think Burroughs, Jenkins, Caldwell, etc were chumps in 2008 and suddenly blossomed a year later. Btw, I was not the one who claimed it was the toughest of all time. But in recent years, 149# in 2008 does stand out. In the past 10 years, just off the top of my head, only one rivals it - the next year at 157 where Burroughs won in a class that had two former champs and a former runner up (Gillespe, Leen, Poeta).

 

Just curious Hurricane, is there another weight class in recent years that you feel was more loaded? If so, what and when?

 

Finally, looking at how the competition did in their careers (excluding 2008, but including both before and after 2008):

 

Metcalf's weight - 5 ncaa champs

2 runnerups

18 AA finishes

 

Gavin's weight - 2 ncaa champs

0 runnerups

7 AA finishes

 

So really by any measure, Metcalf's competition had more strong finishes, both before and after 2008 and yet Metcalf had greater dominance than Gavin. That is why Metcalf was awarded the Hodge.

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i think andrew howe is stil in contention for hodge, mainly due to the strength of 174 compared to noone at 165

 

can't help but chuckle at this....you do know that one of those nobodys at 165 knocked off Howe in his last NCAA appearance, right?

 

I don't think anyone was calling the field of 165 a bunch of nobodys. It is just GLARINGLY obvious that the top 6 at 174 are SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than the top 6 at 165. You have 2 NCAA champs in Howe and Perry. Brown is a returning finalist. Kokesh is the returning 3rd place finisher. Storley is a 2xaa and is currently a True Junior. Returning, and currently undefeated, AA Evans has shown he is right there with anyone listed above. If you want to you can even throw in returning AA Cody Walters to show depth.

 

Every Taylor fan gets offended when his weight's depth gets pointed out. It is not his fault. Although, you could say some have avoided 165 because of him. Caldwell is the only elite wrestler in his weight class and 174 has 6 guys comparable to Caldwell. Taylor will destroy everyone, quite possibly including Caldwell, but that does not change the fact 174 is much deeper.

I think like you pointed out that 174 is stronger because the competition moved up and away from Taylor to improve their chances at a title. Taylor pretty well manhandled Evans and Kokesh, 2 of the top 6 wrestlers you are talking about at 174.

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I don't think anyone was calling the field of 165 a bunch of nobodys. It is just GLARINGLY obvious that the top 6 at 174 are SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than the top 6 at 165. You have 2 NCAA champs in Howe and Perry. Brown is a returning finalist. Kokesh is the returning 3rd place finisher. Storley is a 2xaa and is currently a True Junior. Returning, and currently undefeated, AA Evans has shown he is right there with anyone listed above. If you want to you can even throw in returning AA Cody Walters to show depth.

 

Every Taylor fan gets offended when his weight's depth gets pointed out. It is not his fault. Although, you could say some have avoided 165 because of him. Caldwell is the only elite wrestler in his weight class and 174 has 6 guys comparable to Caldwell. Taylor will destroy everyone, quite possibly including Caldwell, but that does not change the fact 174 is much deeper.

 

And maybe some are at 174 to avoid Ruth. And I believe you are correct that Taylor will destroy everyone.

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I know its a different style and it wasn't an NCAA event and all that, but didn't Taylor tech Howe at the World team trials?

 

And Howe destroyed Taylor in the Olympic Trials the year before. Do not draw conclusions from the last Taylor/Howe match. Howe tried a Head pinch that isn't legal in Folkstyle and when Taylor popped his head out he had a trapped arm gutwrench locked up rolled 3 times and the match was over. The results of that match lead everyone to believe it was a massacre. Tech falls in Freestyle are NOT anywhere like Folkstyle. Folk techs are domination while Freestyle techs are often a result of one move, as it was in this case. With them both at 2 different weights speculation will run rampant but I would NOT act like Taylor would run away against Howe.

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Taylor would own Howe. Own him! He moved up to avoid Taylor. Howe is not a big 165. I would want to go out with a title also. I don't fault Howe for that. David Taylor unless he somehow losses wins the Hodge again. No one is even close. Actually the closest guy is probably at 157 in St John.

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can't help but chuckle at this....you do know that one of those nobodys at 165 knocked off Howe in his last NCAA appearance, right?

 

I don't think anyone was calling the field of 165 a bunch of nobodys. It is just GLARINGLY obvious that the top 6 at 174 are SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than the top 6 at 165. You have 2 NCAA champs in Howe and Perry. Brown is a returning finalist. Kokesh is the returning 3rd place finisher. Storley is a 2xaa and is currently a True Junior. Returning, and currently undefeated, AA Evans has shown he is right there with anyone listed above. If you want to you can even throw in returning AA Cody Walters to show depth.

 

Every Taylor fan gets offended when his weight's depth gets pointed out. It is not his fault. Although, you could say some have avoided 165 because of him. Caldwell is the only elite wrestler in his weight class and 174 has 6 guys comparable to Caldwell. Taylor will destroy everyone, quite possibly including Caldwell, but that does not change the fact 174 is much deeper.

I think like you pointed out that 174 is stronger because the competition moved up and away from Taylor to improve their chances at a title. Taylor pretty well manhandled Evans and Kokesh, 2 of the top 6 wrestlers you are talking about at 174.

 

I wasn't pointing out that 174 is stronger because ANYONE left to get away from Taylor. I said that 165 MAY be weaker because people moved out of 165(possibly because of Taylor in a case or 2). My point wasn't whether Taylor could beat the quality at 174. My point was 174 has considerably MORE quality than 165. Also, Kokesh and Evans are MUCH better at 174 not being sucked out pale looking ghosts. I don't think either could hold 165 with Taylor there or not.

 

However, in the end the numbers don't lie. Just as comparing Metcalf's 2008 competition vs. Gavin's the depth of the 2 weight classes are significantly different. This doesn't make Taylor ANY less dominant. It simply means that an undefeated 174 champ this year would have to get EXTRA consideration by winning a loaded weight class with 2 returning champs and a returning finalist!

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I know its a different style and it wasn't an NCAA event and all that, but didn't Taylor tech Howe at the World team trials?

 

And Howe destroyed Taylor in the Olympic Trials the year before. Do not draw conclusions from the last Taylor/Howe match. Howe tried a Head pinch that isn't legal in Folkstyle and when Taylor popped his head out he had a trapped arm gutwrench locked up rolled 3 times and the match was over. The results of that match lead everyone to believe it was a massacre. Tech falls in Freestyle are NOT anywhere like Folkstyle. Folk techs are domination while Freestyle techs are often a result of one move, as it was in this case. With them both at 2 different weights speculation will run rampant but I would NOT act like Taylor would run away against Howe.

 

You could remind people of that a thousand times. As time passes, all Taylor losses will have asterisks next to them. He was sick, had a back injury, was just a baby, lost to the greatest of all time, would have won if not for the fluke counter, etc.

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Taylor would own Howe. Own him! He moved up to avoid Taylor. Howe is not a big 165. I would want to go out with a title also. I don't fault Howe for that. David Taylor unless he somehow losses wins the Hodge again. No one is even close. Actually the closest guy is probably at 157 in St John.

 

Please tell me you are joking!? Howe is HUGE at 174. People on here have an AMAZINGLY short memory. Howe was a dominant undefeated champ at 165 as a true sophomore. Was undefeated before losing an incredibly active match against Burroughs 10-7( The same Burroughs to go on to win a World Championship THAT year)then TORE his hamstring and came back and took 3rd with an injury that I don't think ANYONE else comes back from, LET ALONE takes 3rd.

 

Oh, and by the way, he WRECKED Taylor at the Olympic Trials. You really think Howe, a "not big" 165 wanted to go up a weight to wrestle a HUGE 174 defending champ in Perry to avoid Taylor?

 

The more I think about this you have to be joking............

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Howe is huge... no way he makes 165 for a whole season. But the freestyle match he won against Taylor was what 1 1/2 years ago? Taylors win in freestyle is far more recent. I understand its freestyle and Howe attempted a move which put him in a bad position but it is not unreasonable to think Taylor improved in that year and a half.

 

If they wrestled folkstyle it would be very close though... can't see Howe getting scored on much by anyone in folk, even Taylor.

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I think like you pointed out that 174 is stronger because the competition moved up and away from Taylor to improve their chances at a title. Taylor pretty well manhandled Evans and Kokesh, 2 of the top 6 wrestlers you are talking about at 174.

 

Agreed. Also, it's hard for the 165 lbers to become NCAA champs and finalists when Taylor and Dake have been ruling over the weight class for the last few years. 174 had no dominant wrestlers last year, which made for a great oppurtunity for guys to make a name for themselves and build up some credentials. Guys like Sulzer and Monk haven't really had that same chance.

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Howe moved up to avoid Taylor. I believe that. A lot of guys did. Perry or Taylor? Easy answer. Taylor would own Howe. Taylor majors guys Howe beats 3-2. I think two years ago Howe would beat Taylor. That kind of match like at trials is only going to get worse for Howe. So the answer is yes Howe moved to avoid Taylor. Howe will not get better than 4th at 163. I think Brown will beat Howe this year anyway.

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I agree with you re Taylor vs Howe and i'm a much better fan of Brown but its a tough call to make him over Howe. I don't see either guy being held down by the other so it will just come down to either stall calls or the first guy to get out of position loses. I don't think the first one to get out of position will be Howe, hes too... patient?

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