Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
MSU158

MSU=Most Severely Unacceptable

Recommended Posts

One last thing (I think).

 

In relation to the Oklahoma problem of getting a new coach.

 

One other thing I did was talk to the sports editor of the Lansing paper.

 

He gave me the impression for about a year that he was going to write an expose on the wrestling program.

 

He talked to at least 50 people, had the story all ready.

 

Then suddenly he said the story got cancelled.

 

Apparently the paper got leaned on by the administration at MSU.

 

So the sports editor said he had to chicken out.

 

So you can see this is a really weird situation.

 

An administration totally backing arguably one of the worst wrestling coaches in Amerca.

 

I think I'm going to write a book -- and mention all of this.

 

But for now, I think I'm done (unless I think of something else I think is important).

 

Best -

 

DA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is just not specific to MSU in wrestling, look at say IU. But you can look across the big ten in multiple sports and see certain schools are at the bottom in specific sports. It comes down to what sports the schools bank on and how vocal the alumni and fans are for each sport. The AD can not babysit all sports, some of them have twenty plus when you include male or female. They will respond to to the mass or small mass that get public.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Now OU is a competitive program again.

 

You just had to say that didn't you? Well let's take a look at the history of Oklahoma Wrestling, and lets specifically go back about 40 years ago. For it was in 1974, under legendary coach Stan Abel that the Sooners won their one and only NCAA DI title. Now, I hate saying this, because I believe that Abel was a great coach but I have to because it's the nature of the beast. Few if any give any credit to Zalesky for Iowa's team titles won in 98' 99' and 00' or the 2nd place finish in 01'. As far as most fans are concerned the wrestlers that earned those team finishes were Gable boys. The first "real team of Zalesky's" according to the Hawkeye faithful was in 02' when the Hawks finished a disappointing (per Iowa fan expectations) 4th.

 

Breece, Beatson, Kilgore and Callard who all contributed to the 1974 title and the 1975 2nd place finish were all technically Tommy Evan's boys and with that said Abel's first years of coaching his "own boys" was less than stellar in comparison.

 

1976 through 1979 was finishes of 9th, 7th, 5th and 9th. Abel's golden years would run for the next 7 years bringing home a top 4 trophy 6 times in 7 tries. (4th-2nd-3rd-4th-5th-2nd-2nd)

 

Towards the last 6 years of Abels coaching career the Sooners would take home just one more team trophy in 1989, finishing 8th in 1988 and 7th in 1990. They would finish outside the top 10 in 1987 and in Abels last two years as head coach in 91' and 92'.

 

Abel gave the Sooners technically 9 team trophy finishes if you aren't going by "Zalesky" rules including an NCAA championship (again if you're not going by Zalesky rules) plus 8 top 10 finishes and only 3 times outside of the top 10. In 20 years of coaching, that's pretty damn good.

 

 

Now yes, I'll admit that Spates didn't do as well as Abel, but it wasn't like he didn't keep the Sooners competitive because he did. In 19 years as a head coach Oklahoma finished outside of the top 10, 8 times. Yet they also brought home 6 top 4 team trophies ( 00-4th, 01-4th, 02-3rd, 03-3rd, 05-3rd, 06-3rd) as well as 5 top 10 finishes. For a period of 7 years, Spates kept the Sooners very competitive. In his last years, albeit one last hurrah with 5th place finish in 10', he slipped, but no worse than Abel did in his last 2 years as head coach.

 

 

Cody thus far as finished 13th and 12th in the NCAA, and really hasn't done much to make the Sooners "competitive" as you make it out to be. Yes, this year could be a great year for the Sooner program, but really how fair is it in comparison? Spin it however you want but with Oklahoma's potential 6 All Americans, you know as well as I do that neither Howe or Rutt are Cody products. Without Howe and Rutt in the line up a top 4 finish with just Patterson, Brewer, Lester and Maple would be tough. Even with Howe and Rutt, it wouldn't be a walk in the park to finish top 3. Let's not forget that Penn State, Iowa and Minnesota are all in this game as well. Let's see what Cody does next year without the help of two guys that were already fully developed before coming to the Oklahoma program.

 

And no, for the record I'm not trying to take a shot on Cody. I believe that he'll make the Sooner program competitive, but I don't think he'll bring home any 1st place team trophies as long as Cael Sanderson and Tom Brands are still coaching.

 

It's fine to not like Spates for personal reasons and personal issues. If you want to state your reasons for why you felt Spates was a horrible coach for personal reasons, be my guest. On a strict results basis though, your argument has little ground to stand on. There was the dark period of time after Spates had a heart attack and the team performance suffered, but in order to call Spate's over all coaching experience poor you would need to ignore 11 top 10 finishes, including 6 team trophies. You know as well as I do that's not fair.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the need to change leadership in all programs that appear to be moving in the direction of becoming stale. However, how bad of a job has MSU Tom really done?

 

Comparing MSU Tom, who takes continuous heat, and CMU Tom, who is doing a satisfactory job (22 seasons in the books for both):

 

• MSU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 3rd

• CMU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 5th

• MSU Tom, 2 NCAA Champions

• CMU Tom, 1 NCAA Champion

• MSU Tom, 36 All Americans

• CMU Tom, 38 All Americans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with the need to change leadership in all programs that appear to be moving in the direction of becoming stale. However, how bad of a job has MSU Tom really done?

 

Comparing MSU Tom, who takes continuous heat, and CMU Tom, who is doing a satisfactory job (22 seasons in the books for both):

 

• MSU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 3rd

• CMU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 5th

• MSU Tom, 2 NCAA Champions

• CMU Tom, 1 NCAA Champion

• MSU Tom, 36 All Americans

• CMU Tom, 38 All Americans

 

 

It's not that Minkle was always a bad coach or that he never had any successes while at Michigan State. It's a matter of the fact that his time has passed and it's time for him to step down. If all the naysayers who continuously rag on Spates would give him a little credit and recognition for all of his successes, and then say that he should have been gone about 5 years sooner than what he was, I can bite my tongue and accept that. Yet, they instead act like Spates took Abel's legendary Sooner program and ran it straight into the dirt and blatantly ignore the numerous amount of 3rd and 4th place finishes that Spates lead the team to. That's what ticks me off and causes me to get hot under the collar. Minkle's time has passed and the longer he sticks around the more and more his accomplishments are going to be ignored and/or forgotten. It's time for a new head coach at Michigan State and I think even Minkle knows that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with the need to change leadership in all programs that appear to be moving in the direction of becoming stale. However, how bad of a job has MSU Tom really done?

 

Comparing MSU Tom, who takes continuous heat, and CMU Tom, who is doing a satisfactory job (22 seasons in the books for both):

 

• MSU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 3rd

• CMU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 5th

• MSU Tom, 2 NCAA Champions

• CMU Tom, 1 NCAA Champion

• MSU Tom, 36 All Americans

• CMU Tom, 38 All Americans

 

 

It's not that Minkle was always a bad coach or that he never had any successes while at Michigan State. It's a matter of the fact that his time has passed and it's time for him to step down. If all the naysayers who continuously rag on Spates would give him a little credit and recognition for all of his successes, and then say that he should have been gone about 5 years sooner than what he was, I can bite my tongue and accept that. Yet, they instead act like Spates took Abel's legendary Sooner program and ran it straight into the dirt and blatantly ignore the numerous amount of 3rd and 4th place finishes that Spates lead the team to. That's what ticks me off and causes me to get hot under the collar. Minkle's time has passed and the longer he sticks around the more and more his accomplishments are going to be ignored and/or forgotten. It's time for a new head coach at Michigan State and I think even Minkle knows that.

 

 

Referencing Minkle as a "bad coach" confuses me, but it is pointless to debate when the stats are given of a "good coach" and Minkle is very similar in performance over identical tenures in identical recruiting regions with possibly less resources (debatable, but not really).

 

Regardless I agree with the fact that there is a "point" in all coaches careers that should not be surpassed. However, the reactive nature of the wrestling community continues to hinder the preservation of this sport. There are many programs that would benefit from proactive pressure to change and refresh leadership. The sometimes irreversible damage that can be done by allowing the existing leadership to surpass the "point" needs to be avoided at all costs. I would love to see an organized initiative with in each of these "stale program" wrestling communities to appropriately apply the pressure. Finally, it is up to the "stale coach" to do what is right for their program/sport and exit before doing harm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sooners have won 7 NCAA titles JT1, Spates had some decent teams but the product on the mat really deteriorated towards the end of his tenure. He lost his fanbase because of a defensive style that was flat out boring. Sure he had his AA's but his lesser wrestlers were coached to go out and stall as much as possible to keep scores down. He got lucky with the Hazewinel/Ware combo(they were going to the same school wherever it was) which got him a few more years before they would have been really calling for his head, heck one year he forfeited like three matches in a Bedlam dual. The 2007 team was a huge disappointment, the team that had shown great promise looked like a team that DGARA at the end.

 

Tommy Evans preceded Stan Able, you should read up on him, great coach great wrestler.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with the need to change leadership in all programs that appear to be moving in the direction of becoming stale. However, how bad of a job has MSU Tom really done?

 

Comparing MSU Tom, who takes continuous heat, and CMU Tom, who is doing a satisfactory job (22 seasons in the books for both):

 

• MSU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 3rd

• CMU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 5th

• MSU Tom, 2 NCAA Champions

• CMU Tom, 1 NCAA Champion

• MSU Tom, 36 All Americans

• CMU Tom, 38 All Americans

Why don't you check the last ten years (roughly when Central Michigan became a fully-funded program, I may be off by a couple years in that regard), and do a comparison of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with the need to change leadership in all programs that appear to be moving in the direction of becoming stale. However, how bad of a job has MSU Tom really done?

 

Comparing MSU Tom, who takes continuous heat, and CMU Tom, who is doing a satisfactory job (22 seasons in the books for both):

 

• MSU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 3rd

• CMU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 5th

• MSU Tom, 2 NCAA Champions

• CMU Tom, 1 NCAA Champion

• MSU Tom, 36 All Americans

• CMU Tom, 38 All Americans

 

I am sorry but your argument is like comparing a Cadillac salesman with a Ford Fiesta salesman. Which one do you think has an easier time selling a car? MSU is a FULLY funded B1G program. It SHOULD and USED TO sell itself. CMU is a MAC school in a Native Indian town. Having equal expectations for both programs is ridiculous. Have you ever heard of the phrase, "doing more with less"? Minkel, over the last 10 years is doing, "less with more". Of the above stats you have quoted ONLY 3 wrestlers have contributed over the last 10 years, the Simmons brothers and Gomez(who admittedly wanted to transfer).

 

In addition to the above paragraph, CMU has DOMINATED MSU over the last 10 years. I will admit that when I was there, 94-99, we were a Contender. He was really goofy, even then, but most of the guys liked him. He simply has NOT changed with the times. Everything about the program has stagnated and he has DONE NOTHING to try to change this. His time has passed. PERIOD!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with the need to change leadership in all programs that appear to be moving in the direction of becoming stale. However, how bad of a job has MSU Tom really done?

 

Comparing MSU Tom, who takes continuous heat, and CMU Tom, who is doing a satisfactory job (22 seasons in the books for both):

 

• MSU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 3rd

• CMU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 5th

• MSU Tom, 2 NCAA Champions

• CMU Tom, 1 NCAA Champion

• MSU Tom, 36 All Americans

• CMU Tom, 38 All Americans

 

I am sorry but your argument is like comparing a Cadillac salesman with a Ford Fiesta salesman. Which one do you think has an easier time selling a car? MSU is a FULLY funded B1G program. It SHOULD and USED TO sell itself. CMU is a MAC school in a Native Indian town. Having equal expectations for both programs is ridiculous. Have you ever heard of the phrase, "doing more with less"? Minkel, over the last 10 years is doing, "less with more". Of the above stats you have quoted ONLY 3 wrestlers have contributed over the last 10 years, the Simmons brothers and Gomez(who admittedly wanted to transfer).

 

In addition to the above paragraph, CMU has DOMINATED MSU over the last 10 years. I will admit that when I was there, 94-99, we were a Contender. He was really goofy, even then, but most of the guys liked him. He simply has NOT changed with the times. Everything about the program has stagnated and he has DONE NOTHING to try to change this. His time has passed. PERIOD!

 

 

Comparing coaching careers over an equal period of time is really all that can be done to draw a fair conclusion. The level of expectation of each program is very debatable. You would think the administration of a Big 10 school would have much more expectation compared to that of a MAC school (and all other conferences), but we all know that is not true based on the current debate.

 

I believe you can disregard your phrase "doing more with less" with the comparison of MSU Tom and CMU Tom. I can honestly say it would be very difficult to determine which situation has 'less". The MAC vs Big 10 argument is cliché at best, there is so much more than conference that "sells" an institution.

 

I agree that the MSU situation is stagnate and change in leadership (total change) could revive a program with great potential. The MSU Wrestling community needs to unite and bring the promise of financial support to leverage change. Emails to the administration reminding them of a dual meet loss or a tournament performance is not the best proactive strategy. They are obviously satisfied with the current level of expectation. Start by recognizing that the list of coaching accomplishments was achieved by more than 3 wrestlers. Those accomplishments resulted from the efforts of 30 athletes a year for 22 years, possibly including yourself from 94-99. If the current level of expectation is not high enough, unite the 22 years of Minkle alumni and find what makes athletic administration listen ($).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with the need to change leadership in all programs that appear to be moving in the direction of becoming stale. However, how bad of a job has MSU Tom really done?

 

Comparing MSU Tom, who takes continuous heat, and CMU Tom, who is doing a satisfactory job (22 seasons in the books for both):

 

• MSU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 3rd

• CMU Tom, 11 Top 20 NCAA Tournament finishes, highest being 5th

• MSU Tom, 2 NCAA Champions

• CMU Tom, 1 NCAA Champion

• MSU Tom, 36 All Americans

• CMU Tom, 38 All Americans

 

I am sorry but your argument is like comparing a Cadillac salesman with a Ford Fiesta salesman. Which one do you think has an easier time selling a car? MSU is a FULLY funded B1G program. It SHOULD and USED TO sell itself. CMU is a MAC school in a Native Indian town. Having equal expectations for both programs is ridiculous. Have you ever heard of the phrase, "doing more with less"? Minkel, over the last 10 years is doing, "less with more". Of the above stats you have quoted ONLY 3 wrestlers have contributed over the last 10 years, the Simmons brothers and Gomez(who admittedly wanted to transfer).

 

In addition to the above paragraph, CMU has DOMINATED MSU over the last 10 years. I will admit that when I was there, 94-99, we were a Contender. He was really goofy, even then, but most of the guys liked him. He simply has NOT changed with the times. Everything about the program has stagnated and he has DONE NOTHING to try to change this. His time has passed. PERIOD!

 

 

Comparing coaching careers over an equal period of time is really all that can be done to draw a fair conclusion. The level of expectation of each program is very debatable. You would think the administration of a Big 10 school would have much more expectation compared to that of a MAC school (and all other conferences), but we all know that is not true based on the current debate.

 

I believe you can disregard your phrase "doing more with less" with the comparison of MSU Tom and CMU Tom. I can honestly say it would be very difficult to determine which situation has 'less". The MAC vs Big 10 argument is cliché at best, there is so much more than conference that "sells" an institution.

 

I agree that the MSU situation is stagnate and change in leadership (total change) could revive a program with great potential. The MSU Wrestling community needs to unite and bring the promise of financial support to leverage change. Emails to the administration reminding them of a dual meet loss or a tournament performance is not the best proactive strategy. They are obviously satisfied with the current level of expectation. Start by recognizing that the list of coaching accomplishments was achieved by more than 3 wrestlers. Those accomplishments resulted from the efforts of 30 athletes a year for 22 years, possibly including yourself from 94-99. If the current level of expectation is not high enough, unite the 22 years of Minkle alumni and find what makes athletic administration listen ($).

 

Believe me we are TRYING HARD. As far as comparing the 2 schools, and I KNOW your stance on Borrelli, I can tell you first hand that NATIONAL recruiting is 10x easier for a Fully Funded B1G school located near a major city vs. a MAC school surrounded by an Indian Reservation. You can dislike Borrelli all you want and I won't debate you on the subject. But using the comparision between the 2 coaches to say Minkel's past 10 years are ANYTHING but HORRIBLE is laughable.

 

A head coach with his approach should be DISAPPEARED.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JT1 I really don't think you have a clue about the OU wrestling program other than reading stats. The style changed and also being competitive as a team disappeared. You wrote a couple of paragraphs questioning Big Apple a man that lives OU wrestling on whether he really understands what was happening there. JMO but it came off as you just wanted to read your own post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Corner Coach - that seems a fair assessment.

 

Sooners have won 7 NCAA titles JT1, Spates had some decent teams but the product on the mat really deteriorated towards the end of his tenure. He lost his fanbase because of a defensive style that was flat out boring. Sure he had his AA's but his lesser wrestlers were coached to go out and stall as much as possible to keep scores down. He got lucky with the Hazewinel/Ware combo(they were going to the same school wherever it was) which got him a few more years before they would have been really calling for his head, heck one year he forfeited like three matches in a Bedlam dual. The 2007 team was a huge disappointment, the team that had shown great promise looked like a team that DGARA at the end.

 

Tommy Evans preceded Stan Able, you should read up on him, great coach great wrestler.

 

I meant to say that Oklahoma only won 1 title in what would be considered the "Gable" era (he was an assistant and then head coach from 77' to 97') Even without that said, the Sooners won titles back in the dark ages and hadn't won one since 1974, so why is it Spate's fault 19 years after the fact? You want to take shots at Spates 2007 through 2011(and even then OU had a 10th place finish in 2005) I'll entertain it, because it is partially justified. 1993 through 2006 though, you have no leg to stand on. Those teams were competitive.

 

As for Tommy Evans, I'm aware. When I was growing up I was as much a Sooner as a I was a Hawkeye (seeing that I'm from Iowa). Said many times before that if I had been worth a hoot as a wrestler, Oklahoma would have been my first choice. I've always been a big Sooner fan, and have read a lot about their history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Comparing coaching careers over an equal period of time is really all that can be done to draw a fair conclusion. The level of expectation of each program is very debatable. You would think the administration of a Big 10 school would have much more expectation compared to that of a MAC school (and all other conferences), but we all know that is not true based on the current debate.

 

I believe you can disregard your phrase "doing more with less" with the comparison of MSU Tom and CMU Tom. I can honestly say it would be very difficult to determine which situation has 'less". The MAC vs Big 10 argument is cliché at best, there is so much more than conference that "sells" an institution.

 

I agree that the MSU situation is stagnate and change in leadership (total change) could revive a program with great potential. The MSU Wrestling community needs to unite and bring the promise of financial support to leverage change. Emails to the administration reminding them of a dual meet loss or a tournament performance is not the best proactive strategy. They are obviously satisfied with the current level of expectation. Start by recognizing that the list of coaching accomplishments was achieved by more than 3 wrestlers. Those accomplishments resulted from the efforts of 30 athletes a year for 22 years, possibly including yourself from 94-99. If the current level of expectation is not high enough, unite the 22 years of Minkle alumni and find what makes athletic administration listen ($).

 

Believe me we are TRYING HARD. As far as comparing the 2 schools, and I KNOW your stance on Borrelli, I can tell you first hand that NATIONAL recruiting is 10x easier for a Fully Funded B1G school located near a major city vs. a MAC school surrounded by an Indian Reservation. You can dislike Borrelli all you want and I won't debate you on the subject. But using the comparision between the 2 coaches to say Minkel's past 10 years are ANYTHING but HORRIBLE is laughable.

 

A head coach with his approach should be DISAPPEARED.

 

I am glad to hear there is a proactive effort for change. Regardless of stance, I can tell you first hand that in this isolated comparison it is not "10x easier" to recruit based on conference and geographic location.

 

Again, regardless of approval or disapproval of either of the head coaches being compared, if a program is growing stale, change must be made before irreversible damage is done. To finish, I am not comparing the past 10 years of either coach, I am comparing the 22 year careers of each.

 

As an alum:

 

What have you done to help build or renovate the MSU wrestling room or locker room?

What have you done to help build an Olympic development program to help fund additional workout partners for the current athletes?

What have you done to help support the MSU camp system?

What did you do during your 1994-1999 time, I assume as a student-athlete, to win matches and move the program forward?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was astounded this morning to read in the paper that MSU was ranked 4th for the Directors Cup -- This means that basically MSU MUST care about its many non-revenue sports./

 

I wonder if the administration knows how much the wrestling team drags down the athletic department in its attempts to win the Directors Cup? (No need to answer -- it's sort of rhetorical question.)

 

DA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...