Stieber vs. Retherford

[lightweight 22]

I am slightly concerned about a let down Saturday night for the team and Zain in particular. Road duals in the BIgTen are tuff enough, then throw in 15 thousand Hawks fans and it can get down right intimidating for anyone, not to mention a true freshman. That being said, Retherford has already shown poise well beyond his years and I don't expect him to have the deer in the headlights look. Matchup wise, I like how things set up. Dwieza isn't great on his feet and needs to make things happen on the mat where he is a bit unorthodox. ZR is so fundamentally sound, I think he can frustrate him and capitalize on some mistakes.

 

I have the same concern. This was the end of my post in the other thread:

...

PSU looked great. Looking ahead now to the other BIG10 matches given that Ohio didn't offer much competition today. Hope Cael keeps their heads screwed on straight with no letdowns.

==============

[pjm46 83]

I am slightly concerned about a let down Saturday night for the team and Zain in particular. Road duals in the BIgTen are tuff enough, then throw in 15 thousand Hawks fans and it can get down right intimidating for anyone, not to mention a true freshman. That being said, Retherford has already shown poise well beyond his years and I don't expect him to have the deer in the headlights look. Matchup wise, I like how things set up. Dwieza isn't great on his feet and needs to make things happen on the mat where he is a bit unorthodox. ZR is so fundamentally sound, I think he can frustrate him and capitalize on some mistakes.

 

When are the Altons supposed to be back.

[TBar1977 4,494]

I am slightly concerned about a let down Saturday night for the team and Zain in particular. Road duals in the BIgTen are tuff enough, then throw in 15 thousand Hawks fans and it can get down right intimidating for anyone, not to mention a true freshman. That being said, Retherford has already shown poise well beyond his years and I don't expect him to have the deer in the headlights look. Matchup wise, I like how things set up. Dwieza isn't great on his feet and needs to make things happen on the mat where he is a bit unorthodox. ZR is so fundamentally sound, I think he can frustrate him and capitalize on some mistakes.

 

When are the Altons supposed to be back.

 

The latest on this is that they "may" be back for the Scuffle, but they may not compete all the way thru the bracket. May ff their way out at some point. Listening to Cael you get the impression it is now more about getting into competition shape.

[pjm46 83]

I am slightly concerned about a let down Saturday night for the team and Zain in particular. Road duals in the BIgTen are tuff enough, then throw in 15 thousand Hawks fans and it can get down right intimidating for anyone, not to mention a true freshman. That being said, Retherford has already shown poise well beyond his years and I don't expect him to have the deer in the headlights look. Matchup wise, I like how things set up. Dwieza isn't great on his feet and needs to make things happen on the mat where he is a bit unorthodox. ZR is so fundamentally sound, I think he can frustrate him and capitalize on some mistakes.

 

When are the Altons supposed to be back.

 

The latest on this is that they "may" be back for the Scuffle, but they may not compete all the way thru the bracket. May ff their way out at some point. Listening to Cael you get the impression it is now more about getting into competition shape.

 

 

Gotcha, thanks

[ScarletKnight 80]

FILA, take note. Matches like these are why you need OT instead of criteria.

 

Stieber has a history of having wierd losses here and there, but he didn't look particularly bad IMO. Just got beat. I don't really know Retherford, but maybe the lesson here is that a cadet world title is a big freaking deal. Anyone got details- or video- of his matches in that tournament?

 

BTW I didn't realize you could body triangle in folkstyle. Retherford had his legs locked around Stieber's wasit forever and I thought that was illegal.

 

I came to ask the same question, that body triangle in high school would have a point for steiber (I have been penalized for it)

[tommygun 52]

Steiber'd

[powershouse 106]

 

BTW I didn't realize you could body triangle in folkstyle. Retherford had his legs locked around Stieber's wasit forever and I thought that was illegal.

 

I came to ask the same question, that body triangle in high school would have a point for steiber (I have been penalized for it)

 

I finally got to watch the match last night and came away with the same question. Retherford had what looked to me to be a figure-4 body scissor on Stieber and I didn't think that was legal anymore. Brutal ride in any case; Stieber got worked hard.

[pjm46 83]

 

BTW I didn't realize you could body triangle in folkstyle. Retherford had his legs locked around Stieber's wasit forever and I thought that was illegal.

 

I came to ask the same question, that body triangle in high school would have a point for steiber (I have been penalized for it)

 

I finally got to watch the match last night and came away with the same question. Retherford had what looked to me to be a figure-4 body scissor on Stieber and I didn't think that was legal anymore. Brutal ride in any case; Stieber got worked hard.

 

I only watched the match once and didn't notice it. I will say that I can't see Ryan allowing an opponent to get away with something illegal without making some noise about it. He would have had that reviewed instead of using the alleged locked hands for a breather.

[tommytechnique 68]

I seem to remember that you can scissor the body but cannot figure four the body.

[Rakkasan91 75]

I seem to remember that you can scissor the body but cannot figure four the body.

 

You can scissor the body, as long as the scissors is not used for punishment. In college, the figure four around the body is a technical violation. In high school, all figure 4's are illegal (except for around 1 leg). This is actually what I thought Ryan was wanting a challenge on since in college, the figure 4 around the body is treated (or delayed) as locked hands.

 

PSU was close to a figure 4 but after watching a few times, I don't think he really got that toe/foot into the back of the knee to make it a true figure 4 so it is a body scissor.

[tommytechnique 68]

I seem to remember that you can scissor the body but cannot figure four the body.

 

You can scissor the body, as long as the scissors is not used for punishment. In college, the figure four around the body is a technical violation. In high school, all figure 4's are illegal (except for around 1 leg). This is actually what I thought Ryan was wanting a challenge on since in college, the figure 4 around the body is treated (or delayed) as locked hands.

 

PSU was close to a figure 4 but after watching a few times, I don't think he really got that toe/foot into the back of the knee to make it a true figure 4 so it is a body scissor.

 

I do remember that punishment caveat to the scissoring rule. How does the ref determine whether or not the scissors is used for punishment?

[Township 7]

 

You can scissor the body, as long as the scissors is not used for punishment. In college, the figure four around the body is a technical violation. In high school, all figure 4's are illegal (except for around 1 leg). This is actually what I thought Ryan was wanting a challenge on since in college, the figure 4 around the body is treated (or delayed) as locked hands.

 

PSU was close to a figure 4 but after watching a few times, I don't think he really got that toe/foot into the back of the knee to make it a true figure 4 so it is a body scissor.

I was also trying to recall what the rule was while watching Retherford work over Steiber with the scissors. At the same time, I actually saw Zain look at the positioning of his foot into the other leg. If you watch the match again, it's pretty obvious and you won't struggle to see what I'm talking about. Seeing that, I recall thinking to myself how impressive it was for a freshman to have such presence of mind to be thinking about avoiding a violation there. Of course I could be wrong and that's not what was happening but I'd bet the house that I'm right.

[Rakkasan91 75]

I do remember that punishment caveat to the scissoring rule. How does the ref determine whether or not the scissors is used for punishment?

 

It really comes down to judgment of the official. If the offensive wrestler is applying the body scissors and just squeezing his opponent without making any attempt to turn, that may be a case when it could be construed as punishment.

 

What is interesting in this, if a figure 4 would have been applied, it is treated liked locked hands and the call can be delayed provided that the defensive wrestler is attempting some scoring maneuver. Even though the call is delayed (same as locked hands), the riding time has to be stooped for the offensive wrestler until the defensive wrestler completes his scoring maneuver or the referee stops the match to penalize.

[GranbyTroll 452]

PSU was close to a figure 4 but after watching a few times, I don't think he really got that toe/foot into the back of the knee to make it a true figure 4 so it is a body scissor.

 

As long as Retherford's foot did not go behind his own knee, he technically locked up a legal body scissor; as soon as the foot goes behind the knee, it's a figure-4 and a 1 point penalty in HS or college.

 

The rules about figure-4ing the head have changed several times in the last 10 years in both HS and college, but figure-4ing the body has not been allowed to my knowledge.

 

FYI, I did not watch the match, i'm just a rules nerd.

[Rakkasan91 75]

Here are the current rules for Figure 4 and Scissors:

 

Figure 4:

 

NCAA

On head from neutral position: Technical Violation

On body or both legs: Technical Violation

On one leg: Legal

On head by offensive wrestler: Legal

 

High School

On head from neutral position: Illegal

On body or both legs: Illegal

On one leg: Legal

On head by offensive wrestler: Illegal

 

Straight Scissors:

 

Both NCAA and High School

On the head: Illegal

On the body: Legal

[lu_alum 920]

I seem to remember that you can scissor the body but cannot figure four the body.

In HS (1980s), I remembered it as follows:

> figure four the head

> scissors the body

 

I can remember a match in HS in which i was getting high in my ride following a reversal early in the 2nd period & ended up in a figure four around his head (both of us belly down, with me on top). I pivoted my hips to flip him over onto his back. Since I didn't want to lose the only hold I had on him, I reached back and grabbed then straight leg of the fig-4 and pulled it toward myself to make to fig-4 tighter - hoping he would decide to pin himself. I didn't get the pin in this sequence, but he spent the better part of 1:30 on his back trying to get out of the hold.

 

I probably wouldn't have such a vivid memory of this match if it weren't for the fact that my opponent was a former youth club teammate. When the 2nd period was over, he gave me an elbow to the face as we got up that gave me a cut on my gums at the base of my front teeth that would later require 6 stitches to close. No blood time back them - only injury time. So i kept my mouth shut (swallowing blood), as I promptly ran a bar and pinned him 30sec into the 3rd period.

[lu_alum 920]

I seem to remember that you can scissor the body but cannot figure four the body.

In HS (1980s), I remembered it as follows:

> figure four the head

> scissors the body

 

I can remember a match in HS in which i was getting high in my ride following a reversal early in the 2nd period & ended up in a figure four around his head (both of us belly down, with me on top). I pivoted my hips to flip him over onto his back. Since I didn't want to lose the only hold I had on him, I reached back and grabbed the straight leg of the fig-4 and pulled it toward myself to make to fig-4 tighter - hoping he would decide to pin himself. I didn't get the pin in this sequence, but he spent the better part of 1:30 on his back trying to get out of the hold.

 

I probably wouldn't have such a vivid memory of this match if it weren't for the fact that my opponent was a former youth club teammate. When the 2nd period was over, he gave me an elbow to the face as we got up that gave me a cut on my gums at the base of my front teeth that would later require 6 stitches to close. No blood time back them - only injury time. So i kept my mouth shut (swallowing blood), as I promptly ran a bar and pinned him 30sec into the 3rd period.

[sbdude 16]

PSU was close to a figure 4 but after watching a few times, I don't think he really got that toe/foot into the back of the knee to make it a true figure 4 so it is a body scissor.

 

As long as Retherford's foot did not go behind his own knee, he technically locked up a legal body scissor; as soon as the foot goes behind the knee, it's a figure-4 and a 1 point penalty in HS or college.

 

The rules about figure-4ing the head have changed several times in the last 10 years in both HS and college, but figure-4ing the body has not been allowed to my knowledge.

 

FYI, I did not watch the match, i'm just a rules nerd.

 

Way back in the dark ages when I wrestled, a figure 4 to the body was LEGAL and the body scissors was ILLEGAL if I remember correctly. That was in the late 70's, early 80's. Not sure when they swapped that around. You could really punish someone with a figure 4 to the body.

[Cradle2grave 16]

That's true. I also remember when they swapped it around 1982 or so. Up until that point you could figure four the body, but any body scissors would draw a penalty.

[TBar1977 4,494]

Guys, the delay was for "locked hands" and we all just naturally looked at the hands and said "that isn't locked hands." Since it is accurate that a figure 4 is treated as locked hands, could Ryan have actually had them looking at the leg ride?

 

And fwiw, I don't see Zain's leg getting behind the knee so no illegal figure 4 imo.

[Chrissn2001 81]

Stieber chose down at the start of the second? I'm not sure if Retherford/Sanderson deferred, but did this choice lead to Stieber losing? The riding time seemed to ultimately lead to the win; essentially, it was a 2 point swing. It was pretty smart to go neutral by PSU knowing how tough Stieber is on top...I guess Sanderson learned from the Dake/Molinaro mess. Anyway, if the next match presents a similar situation, I don't think either wrestler will be choosing bottom. I think Retherford is really talented and he'll do very well, but I think he had a couple of things fall his way. I'll be excited for the next match.

[GranbyTroll 452]

That's true. I also remember when they swapped it around 1982 or so. Up until that point you could figure four the body, but any body scissors would draw a penalty.

 

Also, I remember Freestyle c. 2004 having slightly different and counter-intuitive rules for this when compared to folkstyle- kinda like how you could run a full nelson, but not put two hands on the head in neutral. I understand that the history of figure-4s creates some confusion, but the rules are really simple and streamlined now.

[Rakkasan91 75]

Guys, the delay was for "locked hands" and we all just naturally looked at the hands and said "that isn't locked hands." Since it is accurate that a figure 4 is treated as locked hands, could Ryan have actually had them looking at the leg ride?

 

And fwiw, I don't see Zain's leg getting behind the knee so no illegal figure 4 imo.

 

That is what I suggested earlier. If it would have been deemed a figure 4 or locked hands, it would have been a technical violation (1 match point) but would have also negated riding time accumulated after the infraction.

[TBar1977 4,494]

Guys, the delay was for "locked hands" and we all just naturally looked at the hands and said "that isn't locked hands." Since it is accurate that a figure 4 is treated as locked hands, could Ryan have actually had them looking at the leg ride?

 

And fwiw, I don't see Zain's leg getting behind the knee so no illegal figure 4 imo.

 

That is what I suggested earlier. If it would have been deemed a figure 4 or locked hands, it would have been a technical violation (1 match point) but would have also negated riding time accumulated after the infraction.

 

Yep. Zain would have needed to convert a td in the 3rd and then hold on to get to Sv.

 

Here is how another wrestler with a history with Zain defends Zain's leg ride. This wrestler knew he had to defend against Zain getting both legs in and he does a very good job in the second period and then again in the 3rd period after Zain gets a reversal, but Zain eventually gets the second leg in and it is then essentially over as he flattens the opponent out.

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/25 ... hnault-USA

[gimpeltf 2,045]

PSU was close to a figure 4 but after watching a few times, I don't think he really got that toe/foot into the back of the knee to make it a true figure 4 so it is a body scissor.

 

As long as Retherford's foot did not go behind his own knee, he technically locked up a legal body scissor; as soon as the foot goes behind the knee, it's a figure-4 and a 1 point penalty in HS or college.

 

The rules about figure-4ing the head have changed several times in the last 10 years in both HS and college, but figure-4ing the body has not been allowed to my knowledge.

 

FYI, I did not watch the match, i'm just a rules nerd.

 

Maybe Rak can add to this but I don't think it's a case of strictly being behind the knee. I think it's whether it is above the thickest point of the calf (a few inches difference here)