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BRGuy

forgotten big 12 program

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all this talk about Indiana and Michigan state underperforming and needing new blood to lead the programs made me think of the program many people forget about in the big 12

 

west virginia university

 

why don't we hear anything about this program do they do any promoting they seem to fly under the radar

 

being in the big 12 and so close to pa and oh they should not be as weak as they have been

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I think it is time for Turnbull to retire. WVU has an excellent wrestling facility and good location. WVU hasn't been good since Zeke Jones left. They weren't competitive in the Big 12 last year even when OU was redshirting 3 of this years starters, and Iowa State isn't near what it used to be. This year it will really be ugly.

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WVU actually beat IU last week at the Hoosier Duals on criteria.

 

Geographically, WVU is closer to Pittsburgh than Penn State. It''s the flagship university of a State, and has a much better "name" than all of the PA D1 schools that aren't Penn, Penn State and Pittsburgh (and Franklin & Marshall and Drexel), but out of state wrestlers would appear go to school at places like Edinboro, Clarion, Lock Haven etc., instead of what should be a bigger name and higher nationally ranked (academcially) school.

 

Has WVU had an AA since Jones?

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depends on your definition of shambles. is the roster full? does the program have funding and University/AD support? do the kids graduate?

 

if there answer is yes to those questions then i would hesitate to consider that program to be in shambles.

 

My definition of "in shambles" is that they have not been worse in what, a decade or two, and seem to have zero going on with recruiting and talent development. A D1 program with the resources they have and its favorable location should not be bringing up the rear for so long.

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Ken Chertow, a WV guy, should take over that program and revive it. It's a shame it's in the shambles it's in.

 

Chertow could never do it! He is to busy posting abouts his camps on every message forum the wrestling world has ever known!!

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Coaches have a certain shelf life, eventually they get to a point where they need to retire. Michigan State and West Virginia are in that position now. Oklahoma was in that position until Jack Spates retired. It is tough to walk away from something that is your main identity. There aren't many coaches who leave on or near the top. Among those that I can remember are Port Robertson, Tommy Evans, Gary Kurdelmeier, Harold Nichols, Dan Gable. Those are all coaches with one or more NCAA titles. Jay Robinson is amazing at his age and health problems to keep Minnesota at such a high level. Sometimes a coach has to be forced out by the administration. Look at Mack Brown at Texas, the program isn't in that bad of shape after thus year, but a new AD comes in and Mack's gone. So I guess maybe they need new AD's at Michigan State and West Virginia that cares about wrestling in order for things to change.

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Here's my take on the WVU situation:

 

WVU is my alma mater and I have connections around the program, as well as contact with its current and former wrestlers.

 

They see the issue is with the coaching staff itself. Turnbull preaches philosophy and mainly handles administrative duties. Greg Jones has a hard time teaching situations to wrestlers without his astounding athletic ability (ex: turning 4 consecutive moves into TD's). Danny Felix works with the smaller guys. Everything I've heard from the same sources around the program is that it just needs gutted.

 

Recruiting has been nothing for a few years. Bunch of JUCOs that have made some impacts here and there, and a sprinkled state champ here and there. No development once they get there though, and it's obviously scaring away high profile coach. I wonder why Jim Akerly isn't pushing his Qwest kids there anymore?

 

The issue is not with the AD, Oliver Luck (Andrew Luck's dad). He has done an amazing job upgrading facilities and programs (our volleyball and baseball programs used to be garbage). He has typically tackled one project at a time. Sources are hoping that wrestling is next on the list. However, it is not from a lack of athletic department aid. Wrestling is fully funded and has an AWESOME wrestling facility. They also use the facility as an RTOC that is sponsor by Myland Pharmaceuticals, who employs the club members. The lack of coaching hasn't help draw strong international hopefuls. Really, the only finger to point, is at the coaching staff.

 

With the team funded, great facility, and sitting in a PRIME recruiting area (easy access to Cleveland and Pittsburgh recruiting beds), this should be a strong program.

 

Agree, it hasn't been the same since Zeke Jones left.

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depends on your definition of shambles. is the roster full? does the program have funding and University/AD support? do the kids graduate?

 

if there answer is yes to those questions then i would hesitate to consider that program to be in shambles.

 

My definition of "in shambles" is that they have not been worse in what, a decade or two, and seem to have zero going on with recruiting and talent development. A D1 program with the resources they have and its favorable location should not be bringing up the rear for so long.

 

ok, my definition of shambles has to be more than just on the mat performance. id rather have no AAs but plenty of kids in the program and graduating than 1 or 2 AAs and a bunch of drop outs and/or forfeit weight classes.

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WVU should be much better than it is. Wrestling fans need to start calling for the job of some of these coaches. The thought has always been "don't disrupt a program that isn't in danger of getting cut." Well, the better the program is...the less likely it is getting cut. A lot of the "once mightly" programs that got cut were in the midst of a downspin when it happened. I don't worry about the Big 10 programs as much (a little) but WVU is the perfect example of a program that needs to turn it around...and to do so needs new blood.

 

Of course the best example of this would be BU. The excuse about BU was always "yeah, but Carl is a great guy...runs a clean program...kids graduate..." forget about the fact that it was the worst fully funded program in the country. How'd that work for you? Others that fit this mold right now: Arizona State, NC State, UNC, Hofstra. As mentioned that is not counting the 2 Big 10 programs that we all know are terribly run.

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ok, my definition of shambles has to be more than just on the mat performance. id rather have no AAs but plenty of kids in the program and graduating than 1 or 2 AAs and a bunch of drop outs and/or forfeit weight classes.

 

I suppose you're the type of guy who thought BU was fine since they kept kids in school. I'm not.

 

WV is in shambles. I don't ever recall the program having kids drop out academically, so who cares about your definition? If I were an AD looking to cut a program, this one might come to mind immediately given how unsuccessful it is. The bottom line is they are just a worse version of themselves and headed downward still. Graduation rate is probably the same as when they were better.

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I suppose you're the type of guy who thought BU was fine since they kept kids in school. I'm not.

 

WV is in shambles. I don't ever recall the program having kids drop out academically, so who cares about your definition? If I were an AD looking to cut a program, this one might come to mind immediately given how unsuccessful it is. The bottom line is they are just a worse version of themselves and headed downward still. Graduation rate is probably the same as when they were better.

 

its too bad you cant have all 70 D1 schools in the top 20. it would avoid having so many shambolic programs teetering on the brink of oblivion.

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There we go. You're so smart.

 

Who said top 20? A school with WVU's resources should not be bottom 20 or wherever they are now. Not every school has its resources and location. As has been noted on this thread by others a little more plugged in than you, schools with a lot less are doing much, much better, and that's only OK to morons like you who would keep a coach well past his prime in his seat so long as the program keeps most of its kids in school. Thank God you're not an AD or we'd be down to half a dozen D1 college programs.

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west Virginias athletic director said in the paper when they joined the big 12 that wrestling and a few other sports didn't need to travel for big ten contests if I recall he wanted one big 12 dual date so that they didn't have to fly to the Midwest more than once

 

what happens when they start to look around at expanding the basketball weight room and see the wrestling room could be the perfect spot what happens when the football program wants more money to be able to recruit with texas and Oklahoma and sees three quarters of a million dollars already spent on male athletes and bringing no pride to the school

 

could you imagine what a guy like tim flynn could do at west Virginia I mean edinboro already beats up on them

 

what opens do their athletes travel to it is as if the guys not starting don't care about competing

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There we go. You're so smart.

 

Who said top 20? A school with WVU's resources should not be bottom 20 or wherever they are now. Not every school has its resources and location. As has been noted on this thread by others a little more plugged in than you, schools with a lot less are doing much, much better, and that's only OK to morons like you who would keep a coach well past his prime in his seat so long as the program keeps most of its kids in school. Thank God you're not an AD or we'd be down to half a dozen D1 college programs.

 

the resources and location of west virginia? one of the poorest, least populated state in the US with a flagship school in the bottom tier of the national university rankings?

 

more importantly, if i was AD, how could i cause there to be only 6 D1 programs? i'd only be responsible for 1 program and i'd make sure it kept wrestling. so take it up with the other fictional ADs in your hypothetical scenario.

 

also i forgive you for calling me a moron. these message boards can get heated i and know youre better than petty ad hominems.

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Fully funded D1, driving distance to the nation's hottest wrestling hotbed, excellent facilities, administrative support (as evidenced by funding despite continued terrible performance). That's a setup that many coaches who are doing a much better job than Turnbull and have results to show for their efforts would love to have. That's a setup that is better than many schools that trounce WV every year have.

 

An alumnus with connections to the program came on here to post and express his dissatisfaction with the status quo. Meanwhile, you're making excuses such as, oh, they keep kids in school, so let's give them a pass. As if college wrestling isn't headed down the crapper if something doesn't change. Either you need to wake up or you really are a moron.

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every coach should be graduating their athletes so that is a weak argument it is like saying you should keep going to a doctor because they don't kill their patients it is doing the bare minimum

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Agree West Virginia should be much better. As mentioned very close to Pittsburgh and Ohio, excellent facilities and a nice campus and big time sports programs. Also, it is easy to get admitted at WVU, so you have a wide range of wrestlers to recruit. They need a young hungry head coach to turn the program around.

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Fully funded D1, driving distance to the nation's hottest wrestling hotbed, excellent facilities, administrative support (as evidenced by funding despite continued terrible performance). That's a setup that many coaches who are doing a much better job than Turnbull and have results to show for their efforts would love to have. That's a setup that is better than many schools that trounce WV every year have.

 

An alumnus with connections to the program came on here to post and express his dissatisfaction with the status quo. Meanwhile, you're making excuses such as, oh, they keep kids in school, so let's give them a pass. As if college wrestling isn't headed down the crapper if something doesn't change. Either you need to wake up or you really are a moron.

 

oh calm down, dude, seriously. i'm trying to make 2 main points. 1) a program will (or should at least) be axed first if it neglects it responsibility to its students before any performance metrics are taken into account. 2) sports are a zero sum game. not every program cant be at the top.

 

i didnt make any excuses for WVU, nor do i even know if they graduate their students to begin with. so maybe they do need a new coach, thats fine. i just won't call a program in shambles if they are still recruiting, educating and graduating their students. nor do i find it productive to shout down and disparage anyone who disagrees with me. perhaps you do. best of luck in your quest to save college wrestling using such tactics.

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every coach should be graduating their athletes so that is a weak argument it is like saying you should keep going to a doctor because they don't kill their patients it is doing the bare minimum

 

yes, there is no excuse for not graduating your students. and yet, football and basketball often graduate 50% or less than their athletes. a true tragedy of NCAA athletics.

 

its great that wrestling doesn't have the same systemic problem as the money sports.

 

i hope WVU will never see their wrestling program cut because of on the mat performance, but if that is the case then i hope they do whatever they need to do to improve their situation.

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There we go. You're so smart.

 

Who said top 20? A school with WVU's resources should not be bottom 20 or wherever they are now. Not every school has its resources and location. As has been noted on this thread by others a little more plugged in than you, schools with a lot less are doing much, much better, and that's only OK to morons like you who would keep a coach well past his prime in his seat so long as the program keeps most of its kids in school. Thank God you're not an AD or we'd be down to half a dozen D1 college programs.

 

The resources and location of west virginia? one of the poorest, least populated state in the US with a flagship school in the bottom tier of the national university rankings?

 

More importantly, if i was AD, how could i cause there to be only 6 D1 programs? I'd only be responsible for 1 program and i'd make sure it kept wrestling. so take it up with the other fictional ADs in your hypothetical scenario.

 

Also i forgive you for calling me a moron. these message boards can get heated i and know you're better than petty ad hominems.

Nicely said.

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