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MSU158

How do Taylor's Top10 Wins compare to the likes of Dake?

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The only argument that needs to be made is whether you would rather have Dake on your team or Taylor. I think the answer is easily Taylor from a team point of view. I do not think even a dbag like Gonzo can argue that one.

 

Why is that the "only argument that needs to be made"? Anywho, picking Taylor over Dake would all depend on the quality of competition involved. Maybe it's best to pick Taylor if your competition is mostly second and third tier wrestlers. If we are talking about a situation where this hypothetical competition consists of all time great wrestlers, competing on the big stage, Dake would easily get my pick.

 

This isnt some hypothetical monster mini tournament scenario. This is a typical college wrestling season, in a typical situation. Taylor is the better wrestler to have on your team for team scoring purposes, and you have no data to support otherwise. You want to pick Dake to win a big match, I dont really care. Doesnt change the fact that over the course of the season, and 2 of the 3 NCAA tournaments they wrestled in together, Taylor has outscored Dake. I will take Taylor on my team.

While there's no argument that Dake was a better college wrestler than Taylor (based on their results against each other), snapspinscore's point is nonetheless valid. Here are their respective career stats:

 

    To date, Taylor has a 97.37% winning percentage, and has scored bonus in 91.23% of his bouts.
    (He has won 38.60% of his matches by fall, 32.46% by tech fall, and 20.18% by major decision.)

    Dake had a 97.16% career winning percentage, and scored bonus points in 58.87% of his bouts. (He won 31.21% of his bouts by fall, 6.38% by tech fall, and 21.28% by major decision.)

So, while it may seem counter-intuitive to pick Taylor, he has statistically proven to be a more prolific scorer than Dake (so far, at least). Thus, snapinscore was making a logical choice based on the data and his criteria (i.e., Which guy can I expect to score the most points for my team?).

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This whole thread is a perfect case of style bias. Offensive-minded wide open styles are fun to watch, but as the saying goes, offense sells tickets, but defense wins championships. This goes for all sports. De La Hoya and Gatti had more entertaining boxing styles than Mayweather, and the greatest show on turf was a more exciting team to watch than the 2000 Ravens or the 2001 Patriots, but it was Baltimore and New England that hoisted the Lombardi. Same thing here. Dake is the better wrestler, as shown by the most important metric, head to head, but DT is more entertaining, so he gets the love.

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While there's no argument that Dake was a better college wrestler than Taylor (based on their results against each other), snapspinscore's point is nonetheless valid. Here are their respective career stats:

 

    To date, Taylor has a 97.37% winning percentage, and has scored bonus in 91.23% of his bouts.
    (He has won 38.60% of his matches by fall, 32.46% by tech fall, and 20.18% by major decision.)

    Dake had a 97.16% career winning percentage, and scored bonus points in 58.87% of his bouts. (He won 31.21% of his bouts by fall, 6.38% by tech fall, and 21.28% by major decision.)

So, while it may seem counter-intuitive to pick Taylor, he has statistically proven to be a more prolific scorer than Dake (so far, at least). Thus, snapinscore was making a logical choice based on the data and his criteria (i.e., Which guy can I expect to score the most points for my team?).

 

Well it certainly answers THAT question. But the original thread question was related to Top10 wins. So you could take that original question one step further and compare ALL Taylor's opponents vs other guys the likes of Dake, Metcalf, Askren, etc. you might find some interesting results.

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All of that and more. Taylor has influenced other wrestlers at Penn State to attempt to score in bunches like he does, so others have become higher bonus point scorers because of his influence. It is EASY to spot in how the style of the other wrestlers has changed. Matt Brown is a great example of this. He is now playing the cat and mouse take them down let them back up game. That is the Cael Sanderson-David Taylor influence right there.

 

Taylor has made everyone around him a better wrestler, which is what everyone around him says when asked. No wonder the young guns around here want to be like Taylor.

 

What about Ruth? Are you sure that Ruth hasn't had the same influence that Taylor has had on the others? Would you say that Taylor has influenced Ruth to wrestle the way he does?

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This isnt some hypothetical monster mini tournament scenario. This is a typical college wrestling season, in a typical situation. Taylor is the better wrestler to have on your team for team scoring purposes, and you have no data to support otherwise. You want to pick Dake to win a big match, I dont really care. Doesnt change the fact that over the course of the season, and 2 of the 3 NCAA tournaments they wrestled in together, Taylor has outscored Dake. I will take Taylor on my team.

 

Fair enough. But it's worth mentioning that I just took your same scenario and merely raised the stakes. I took the level of competition up a few notches. I imagine that Taylor would want to compete in this hypothetical situation if it were possible. An opportunity to clash with the all time greats. The very fact that merely raising the level of competition makes the Taylor pick look like it may not be the correct choice, speaks volumes imo. Taylor may be the obvious choice given weaker competition, but against the VERY best....

 

And I'm still curious why "the only argument that needs to be made" between the two is this one. I could think of a few more questions/arguments that can be asked/made that are also very important. Heres' a few:

If an ncaa team title came down to one match, a match in the ncaa final, who would you rather have wrestle it for you, Dake or Taylor?

 

Who's ncaa career would you rather have Dake or Taylor's?

 

Who's the better wrestler, Dake or Taylor?

 

When starting a list of the all time great ncaa wrestlers, who's name shows up on that list first?

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While there's no argument that Dake was a better college wrestler than Taylor (based on their results against each other), snapspinscore's point is nonetheless valid. Here are their respective career stats:

 

    To date, Taylor has a 97.37% winning percentage, and has scored bonus in 91.23% of his bouts.
    (He has won 38.60% of his matches by fall, 32.46% by tech fall, and 20.18% by major decision.)

    Dake had a 97.16% career winning percentage, and scored bonus points in 58.87% of his bouts. (He won 31.21% of his bouts by fall, 6.38% by tech fall, and 21.28% by major decision.)

So, while it may seem counter-intuitive to pick Taylor, he has statistically proven to be a more prolific scorer than Dake (so far, at least). Thus, snapinscore was making a logical choice based on the data and his criteria (i.e., Which guy can I expect to score the most points for my team?).

 

Well it certainly answers THAT question. But the original thread question was related to Top10 wins. So you could take that original question one step further and compare ALL Taylor's opponents vs other guys the likes of Dake, Metcalf, Askren, etc. you might find some interesting results.

Yes, but how would you go about doing that? It becomes very subjective when you begin comparing different guys, at different points in time, and at different stages of development.

 

At any rate, what snapandspin was saying is somewhat similar to what some Hawkeye fans have said about Metcalf. To wit, they'd rather have him on their team than Caldwell, although Caldwell pinned Metcalf the year Brent won the Hodge and beat him decisively at the Big Dance the following year.

.

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Since it appears NOONE will actually answer the question I have Taylor's TOP10 wins as the following:

 

1.)Caldwell:3x AA 1x finalist, most likely a 4x AA and 2x finalist

2.)Fittery: 2x DII finalist, 2x AA DI

3.)St. John: 3x AA, 2x finalist, 1x champ. Win doesn't rank as high since he was a freshman who got mauled by Fittery that same year.

4.)St. John:see above

5.)Hatchett: 2x AA 1x finalist

6.)Hatchett:see above

7.)Evans: 1x AA, most likely a 3xAA

8.)Evans:see above

9.)Kokesh:1x AA, most likely a 3xAA

10.)Kokesh:see above

 

Honorable Mention: Abdurkhmanov, Polz and Yates.

 

I will try to do Sanderson and Pat Smith as well.

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Since it appears NOONE will actually answer the question I have Taylor's TOP10 wins as the following:

 

1.)Caldwell:3x AA 1x finalist, most likely a 4x AA and 2x finalist

2.)Fittery: 2x DII finalist, 2x AA DI

3.)St. John: 3x AA, 2x finalist, 1x champ. Win doesn't rank as high since he was a freshman who got mauled by Fittery that same year.

4.)St. John:see above

5.)Hatchett: 2x AA 1x finalist

6.)Hatchett:see above

7.)Evans: 1x AA, most likely a 3xAA

8.)Evans:see above

9.)Kokesh:1x AA, most likely a 3xAA

10.)Kokesh:see above

 

Honorable Mention: Abdurkhmanov, Polz and Yates.

 

I will try to do Sanderson and Pat Smith as well.

 

how does the freshman st john compare to the soph st john in your eyes?

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What people need to understand is you are trying to compare two VERY dominate wrestlers, when neither of them have a style even close to the other, Dakes style is not to give up points, and that is one way to dominate someone, just ask Taylor's Teammate Molinaro, and Taylor's style is to score points, if cornell was in a dual with penn state I'm absolutely taking Dake 10/10 or against Burroughs I'm taking Dake, anyone in the discussion of top 10 all time, I'm picking Dake over Taylor to wrestle them, anyone less then that Taylor is my guy because I'm gareented bonus points

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What people need to understand is you are trying to compare two VERY dominate wrestlers, when neither of them have a style even close to the other, Dakes style is not to give up points, and that is one way to dominate someone, just ask Taylor's Teammate Molinaro, and Taylor's style is to score points, if cornell was in a dual with penn state I'm absolutely taking Dake 10/10 or against Burroughs I'm taking Dake, anyone in the discussion of top 10 all time, I'm picking Dake over Taylor to wrestle them, anyone less then that Taylor is my guy because I'm gareented bonus points

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Since it appears NOONE will actually answer the question I have Taylor's TOP10 wins as the following:

 

1.)Caldwell:3x AA 1x finalist, most likely a 4x AA and 2x finalist

2.)Fittery: 2x DII finalist, 2x AA DI

3.)St. John: 3x AA, 2x finalist, 1x champ. Win doesn't rank as high since he was a freshman who got mauled by Fittery that same year.

4.)St. John:see above

5.)Hatchett: 2x AA 1x finalist

6.)Hatchett:see above

7.)Evans: 1x AA, most likely a 3xAA

8.)Evans:see above

9.)Kokesh:1x AA, most likely a 3xAA

10.)Kokesh:see above

 

 

Honorable Mention: Abdurkhmanov, Polz and Yates.

 

I will try to do Sanderson and Pat Smith as well.

 

how does the freshman st john compare to the soph st john in your eyes?

 

I believe St. John made significant improvement throughout his Sophomore year. However, so did Taylor. I would definitely rank a sophomore at the NCAA tournament St. John ahead of Fittery at NCAA's the year before.

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I do not know where to look to get an exact match by match record for Sanderson. So I will list his Top10 competition and if someone knows exactly how many times he beat each we could form it into a list.

 

1.)Vering 3x AA 1x Champ--------------------------Beat him 3x

2.)Cormier 2x NJCAA Champ, 1x DI Finalist------Beat him 5x

3.)Hahn 4x AA 2x Champ---------------------------Beat him 1x

4.)Eggum 3x AA 1x Finalist------------------------Beat him 5x

5.)Trenge 3x AA 2x Finalist------------------------Beat him 3x

6.)Vertus Jones 3x AA 2x Finalist-----------------Beat him 2x

7.)Lambrecht 3xAA 1x Finalist--------------------Beat him 2x

8.)Hrovat 3x AA-------------------------------------Beat him 2x

9.)Nick Preston 2xAA-------------------------------Beat him 1x

10.)Rohn 2x AA 1x Champ-------------------------Beat him 1x

10.b) Mark Munoz 2xAA 1x champ----------------Beat him 2x

 

Feel free to change this up if you know more about the matchups and if there were more than 1.

 

Thanks for the sourcing gentlemen. Amazing how many times he beat his top competition. Other than Hahn he DOMINATED some high end talent.

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Since it appears NOONE will actually answer the question I have Taylor's TOP10 wins as the following:

 

1.)Caldwell:3x AA 1x finalist, most likely a 4x AA and 2x finalist

2.)Fittery: 2x DII finalist, 2x AA DI

3.)St. John: 3x AA, 2x finalist, 1x champ. Win doesn't rank as high since he was a freshman who got mauled by Fittery that same year.

4.)St. John:see above

5.)Hatchett: 2x AA 1x finalist

6.)Hatchett:see above

7.)Evans: 1x AA, most likely a 3xAA

8.)Evans:see above

9.)Kokesh:1x AA, most likely a 3xAA

10.)Kokesh:see above

 

 

Honorable Mention: Abdurkhmanov, Polz and Yates.

 

I will try to do Sanderson and Pat Smith as well.

 

how does the freshman st john compare to the soph st john in your eyes?

 

I believe St. John made significant improvement throughout his Sophomore year. However, so did Taylor. I would definitely rank a sophomore at the NCAA tournament St. John ahead of Fittery at NCAA's the year before.

 

st john was off for a long period of time during his soph year and dropped 2 bad matches when he returned in jan. he wrestled welch both his freshman and sophmore year with more success as a freshman. this brings me to my point. the same wrestler with the same career credentials is very different at points in their career. weight cuts, injuries, experience, and development play big factors to the quality that steps on the mat at any given moment. even to try to compare within each guys list is too subjective for it to really mean anything.

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I do not know where to look to get an exact match by match record for Sanderson. So I will list his Top10 competition and if someone knows exactly how many times he beat each we could form it into a list.

 

1.)Vering 3x AA 1x Champ

2.)Cormier 2x NJCAA Champ, 1x DI Finalist

3.)Hahn 4x AA 2x Champ

4.)Eggum 3x AA 1x Finalist

5.)Trenge 3x AA 2x Finalist

6.)Vertus Jones 3x AA 2x Finalist

7.)Lambrecht 3xAA 1x Finalist

8.)Hrovat 3x AA

9.)Nick Preston 2xAA

10.)Rohn 2x AA 1x Champ

 

Feel free to change this up if you know more about the matchups and if there were more than 1

Cael no longer has his match-by-match record up on his website, but you can find it on the Wayback Machine. Go about half way down the page and look for "Career Results: 1998-99 | 1999-2000 | 2000-2001 | 2001-2002 | 2002-2003 | 2003-2004" and click on any season to see that year's results.

.

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I do not know where to look to get an exact match by match record for Sanderson. So I will list his Top10 competition and if someone knows exactly how many times he beat each we could form it into a list.

 

1.)Vering 3x AA 1x Champ

2.)Cormier 2x NJCAA Champ, 1x DI Finalist

3.)Hahn 4x AA 2x Champ

4.)Eggum 3x AA 1x Finalist

5.)Trenge 3x AA 2x Finalist

6.)Vertus Jones 3x AA 2x Finalist

7.)Lambrecht 3xAA 1x Finalist

8.)Hrovat 3x AA

9.)Nick Preston 2xAA

10.)Rohn 2x AA 1x Champ

 

Feel free to change this up if you know more about the matchups and if there were more than 1

Cael no longer has his match-by-match record up on his website, but you can find it on the Wayback Machine. Go about half way down the page and look for "Career Results: 1998-99 | 1999-2000 | 2000-2001 | 2001-2002 | 2002-2003 | 2003-2004" and click on any season to see that year's results.

.

 

It's still up on his website.

 

http://www.caelsanderson.com/results/1998-1999-results/

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