Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
MSU158

How do Taylor's Top10 Wins compare to the likes of Dake?

Recommended Posts

Lets just move on already and start in on the I HATE ZAIN RETHERFORD threads.

 

Taylor lost to Howe in freestyle only after Howe took off and concentrated solely on that style. Taylor trained up and came back and spanked the troll, and every short man on this forum refuses to accept that Taylor will now dominate Howe.

 

You can't say Bubba "caught" Talyor, yet it is Ok to say that Taylor "caught" Howe with trapped arm gut. Such a huge double standard.

 

Answer: Fittery (2), DSJ (2 or 3), Caldwell, and countless other guys who were multiple state champs or multiple state finishers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not to highjack your thread MSU, but here's a Spartan student newspaper article about whether Minkel should retain his job or not.

 

I'm sure you'll enjoy this read. :twisted:

.

 

Now everyone should understand why I post about PSU or Minnesota or Iowa. Their is NO POINT to even discuss MSU. There was LITERALLY no substance in that story as to WHY Minkel is an "old school" coach or WHAT he has done or is GOING to do to warrant patience. Hell, I guess I am pretty far removed now as I didn't even know MSU had a beat writer. Andy Hamilton he IS NOT!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lets just move on already and start in on the I HATE ZAIN RETHERFORD threads.

 

Taylor lost to Howe in freestyle only after Howe took off and concentrated solely on that style. Taylor trained up and came back and spanked the troll, and every short man on this forum refuses to accept that Taylor will now dominate Howe.

 

You can't say Bubba "caught" Talyor, yet it is Ok to say that Taylor "caught" Howe with trapped arm gut. Such a huge double standard.

 

Answer: Fittery (2), DSJ (2 or 3), Caldwell, and countless other guys who were multiple state champs or multiple state finishers.

 

You seem to have a height fetish. Exactly how tall are you? At what threshold does one become a short man?

 

Taylor did NOT get beat his first time by freestyle moves. He was stonewalled on his feet. You also seem to have an obsession with how wrestler's look. Sexual anxiety?

 

Do you really think getting pinned in a cradle is REMOTELY the same as getting rolled 3 times in a trapped arm gut?

 

You seem like more of a blowhard than the "Adonis" of wrestling you try to portray yourself as........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do not know where to look to get an exact match by match record for Sanderson. So I will list his Top10 competition and if someone knows exactly how many times he beat each we could form it into a list.

 

1.)Vering 3x AA 1x Champ

2.)Cormier 2x NJCAA Champ, 1x DI Finalist

3.)Hahn 4x AA 2x Champ

4.)Eggum 3x AA 1x Finalist

5.)Trenge 3x AA 2x Finalist

6.)Vertus Jones 3x AA 2x Finalist

7.)Lambrecht 3xAA 1x Finalist

8.)Hrovat 3x AA

9.)Nick Preston 2xAA

10.)Rohn 2x AA 1x Champ

 

Feel free to change this up if you know more about the matchups and if there were more than 1

Cael no longer has his match-by-match record up on his website, but you can find it on the Wayback Machine. Go about half way down the page and look for "Career Results: 1998-99 | 1999-2000 | 2000-2001 | 2001-2002 | 2002-2003 | 2003-2004" and click on any season to see that year's results.

.

 

It's still up on his website.

 

http://www.caelsanderson.com/results/1998-1999-results/

Thanks, for some reason (senility likely) I wasn't able to find it there and had to get some help from Mr. Peabody and Sherman.

.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

At any rate, what snapandspin was saying is somewhat similar to what some Hawkeye fans have said about Metcalf. To wit, they'd rather have him on their team than Caldwell, although Caldwell pinned Metcalf the year Brent won the Hodge and beat him decisively at the Big Dance the following year.

.

 

------

 

Your Dake/DT analogy to Caldwell/Metcalf is rather flawed.

 

Dake is 3-0 vs Taylor, and has 4 ncaa titles vs 1 so far for DT. And you say many prefer Taylor on their team because he scores more bonus points, and resulting team points.

 

So far so good. Beyond that things are quite different.

 

Caldwell is 2-1 vs Metcalf ( don't forget Metcalf's win by TF in All Star meet).

 

Caldwell's ncaa run consists of dnp, 5th, 1st, RS med, dnp.

 

Metcalf (only 3 years eligibility), besides scoring far more team points, had ncaa finishes of 1st, 2nd, 1st.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

------

Your Dake/DT analogy to Caldwell/Metcalf is rather flawed.

No, it isn't. I merely said that snapspinscore's position (i.e., favoring Taylor over Dake for his team) was "somewhat similar" to Hawkeye fans who would pick Metcalf over Caldwell for their team. In both instances, they would be choosing the losing wrestler of their respective NCAA matches against each other.

 

Dake is 3-0 vs Taylor, and has 4 ncaa titles vs 1 so far for DT. And you say many prefer Taylor on their team because he scores more bonus points, and resulting team points.

No, I didn't say anything about how many may prefer Taylor. I simply pointed out that snapspinscore's position was supported by the data. And that data shows that Taylor has scored bonus in 91.23% of his career matches (so far) to Dake's 58.87% career bonus percentage.

 

So far so good. Beyond that things are quite different.

So what? Is it your position that two scenarios can't be "somewhat similar" in some aspects, yet differ in others?

 

Caldwell is 2-1 vs Metcalf ( don't forget Metcalf's win by TF in All Star meet).

Correct. Caldwell won all of their NCAA matches and Metcalf won a single exhibition bout.

(Don't forget Caldwell's wins by fall and by 11-6 decision for an NCAA championship.)

 

Caldwell's ncaa run consists of dnp, 5th, 1st, RS med, dnp.

 

Metcalf (only 3 years eligibility), besides scoring far more team points, had ncaa finishes of 1st, 2nd, 1st.

Yes, and because of those respective differences, some Hawkeye fans have indicated they'd still pick Metcalf for their team over Caldwell, although Caldwell beat Metcalf in every official collegiate match they wrestled. Likewise, snapspinscore indicated that he'd still pick Taylor over Dake (due to Taylor scoring more bonus points), although Dake won all their matches. Again, that's how the two situations are "somewhat similar" - as I indicated in my original post.

 

I'd assume, rossel3, that you'd pick Metcalf over the guy that pinned him and beat him at the Big Dance - just as snapspinscore would pick Taylor over Dake for his team. Is that correct?

.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 00's Oregon Ducks ran up and down the field against some very good competition then they would end the year losing to a Team that was less colorful when it came to scoring.

 

Some of the BEST Baseball games I have ever seen had scores of 1-0/ 2-1.

 

There is a reason why most of the World prefers to watch their game of Fotbol.

 

HEAD TO HEAD COMPETITION is the only gauge that matters. To date: David Taylor is Kyle Dake's "biotch" !!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not to highjack your thread MSU, but here's a Spartan student newspaper article about whether Minkel should retain his job or not.

 

I'm sure you'll enjoy this read. :twisted:

.

 

Now everyone should understand why I post about PSU or Minnesota or Iowa. Their is NO POINT to even discuss MSU. There was LITERALLY no substance in that story as to WHY Minkel is an "old school" coach or WHAT he has done or is GOING to do to warrant patience. Hell, I guess I am pretty far removed now as I didn't even know MSU had a beat writer. Andy Hamilton he IS NOT!

 

Except you talk so damn unflatteringly about all things PSU it borders on obsession. Did Cael steal your lunch money or something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not to highjack your thread MSU, but here's a Spartan student newspaper article about whether Minkel should retain his job or not.

 

I'm sure you'll enjoy this read. :twisted:

.

 

Now everyone should understand why I post about PSU or Minnesota or Iowa. Their is NO POINT to even discuss MSU. There was LITERALLY no substance in that story as to WHY Minkel is an "old school" coach or WHAT he has done or is GOING to do to warrant patience. Hell, I guess I am pretty far removed now as I didn't even know MSU had a beat writer. Andy Hamilton he IS NOT!

 

Except you talk so damn unflatteringly about all things PSU it borders on obsession. Did Cael steal your lunch money or something?

 

Lol, Really? So if you don't swing from the genitals of every PSU wrestler and coach it is considered "so damn unflatteringly(neat new word)"?

 

Where do I start?

 

125, Megaludis, I think is an absolute stud. Should be a 4x finalist and could sneak in a championship. The kid looks like the hardest working wrestler on the team. And that truly says A TON. I challenge you to find a post where I put him down.

 

133, Gulibon, I have said multiple times I could see him AA'in multiple times during his career. I simply said there is no factual data that supports he SHOULD AA THIS year.

 

141, Retherford, I have said looks AMAZING and should be a 4x AA. Once he beat Stieber I even posted a topic saying I was WRONG for thinking he would lose. I believe the sky is the limit with this kid.

 

149, A. Alton is the first wrestler I have been truly critical of. Now why is that? Simply put most, if not all, of the PSU faithful keep touting him as a 4x AA and multiple champ. Considering he only has 2 years left this is IMPOSSIBLE. I have said this kid is SUPER talented. However, he has shown MAJOR gas tank issues and I can't subscribe to him AA'ing, let alone, winning the whole thing until he shows he has fixed a HUGE issue.

 

157, D. Alton, I have defended him as NOT having a gas tank issue. I believe he will AA again and he was really close to doing so last year with an obvious injury.

 

165 Taylor: Go back and look at my posts. I call him an Amazing(and many other HIGH end adjectives) wrestler. I only get in debates over him because it sounds, to ME atleast, like so many PSU followers try to find ways to place him with the ALL time best. I have compared him to the likes of Askren and am surprised so many consider that "so damn unflatteringly"

 

174 Brown, I have not had much to say about him either way. He is not my favorite 174 but his in your face style has my full respect and I see him as a 4x AA

 

184 Ruth, I have said I believe he is BETTER than Taylor. He will be a 4x AA 3x champ. I am not positive that the injury stopped him as a freshman, as his freshman year was the one time he looked to lose focus a few times. However, after his trouncing of Amuch the next year, I could see him as a finalist and a healthy freshman Ruth vs Reader would have been a GREAT Final. I believe this guy could and should be considered as a Top5 ALL TIME wrestler.

 

197 McIntosh, I believe he is talented and has multiple AA potential. I admit I have stated he has yet to prove he deserves his ranking and until he beats someone of note I think he is ranked too high because of being a PSU wrestler.

 

285 Lawson, I have said nothing negative about him. He is solid but nothing special. I believe that fits in with what PSU followers would say.

 

Head Coach Sanderson, I have stated that I would probably be a fan if it wasn't for the Jenkins fiasco. To me, who has first hand experience with preferential treatment from a coach, what happened hit a special chord. I know the PSU supporters have a different viewpoint and will defend Sanderson until the end. I have no issue with this. I will wholeheartedly disagree, but I understand why you would support Sanderson.

 

I have given my WHOLE perspective on PSU wrestling. I have a hard time seeing that as "so damn unflatteringly". I am not a PSU fan so of course I am not going to act like everyone is PERFECT. I have stated they are the best Tournament Team and should win it again this year. My tone isn't gonna be "chewy, chewy gum drops" but I say CONSIDERABLY more positive things about PSU than negative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, and because of those respective differences, some Hawkeye fans have indicated they'd still pick Metcalf for their team over Caldwell, although Caldwell beat Metcalf in every official collegiate match they wrestled. Likewise, snapspinscore indicated that he'd still pick Taylor over Dake (due to Taylor scoring more bonus points), although Dake won all their matches. Again, that's how the two situations are "somewhat similar" - as I indicated in my original post.

 

I'd assume, rossel3, that you'd pick Metcalf over the guy that pinned him and beat him at the Big Dance - just as snapspinscore would pick Taylor over Dake for his team. Is that correct?

.

---------

 

That is correct, Hurricane, I'd pick Metcalf for my team instead of Caldwell.

 

Why? I take a longer view, and consider value to a team over the wrestler's collegiate career.

 

So, while you like to focus on Caldwell's one great year, when he won his single ncaa title, apparently you ignore the other 3 years.

 

Such as his first year, when he dnp and got pinned twice in the ncaa tournament. Or the second year when he took 5th, losing matches to Jordan Burroughs (who Metcalf beat 8-4 in semi's), and Bubba Jenkins (who Metcalf beat in the finals 14-8).

 

Throughout his collegiate career, I believe Metcalf had only 3 losses, far fewer than Caldwell, and Metcalf had numerous wins over guys that beat Caldwell. Metcalf scored tons of bonus points for duals and tons of team points at ncaa, far more that Caldwell over his career.

 

And unlike Dake, who has never lost to Taylor, Caldwell did suffer a loss, by TF, to Metcalf, a fact you seem to conveniently ignore.

 

Only by ignoring the total Caldwell career, are you able to make him analogous to Dake. Looking at the whole career, it is an absurd analogy.

 

I know it was painful for you when Metcalf won the Hodge. Guess you still haven't gotten over it, eh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The 00's Oregon Ducks ran up and down the field against some very good competition then they would end the year losing to a Team that was less colorful when it came to scoring.

 

Some of the BEST Baseball games I have ever seen had scores of 1-0/ 2-1.

 

There is a reason why most of the World prefers to watch their game of Fotbol.

 

HEAD TO HEAD COMPETITION is the only gauge that matters. To date: David Taylor is Kyle Dake's "biotch" !!

How many times must you be banned before you stop sneaking back? Just show a little dignity, and leave on your own this time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can someone please list his Top10 COLLEGE FOLKSTYLE wins. I am not interested in or trying to attack Taylor in this thread. He is as good as if not better as Askren was and that puts him as a borderline Top10-Top15 type. However, it seems like a lot on here would put him closer to Top5. I would be interested to see if someone on here can list the Top 10,COLLEGE FOLKSTYLE, wins of Sanderson, Pat Smith, Dake and whom they most likely see as the 4th and 5th (Very debatable spots) best D1 wrestlers. I would then like to, without bias(I know that is very hard to do), make a comparison between Taylor's competition and the other 5's.

 

I truly am interested to see if Taylor's wins stack up against the Elite 5.

 

If the point of this question is to see if Taylor is more of a top 5 all-time wrestler or a top 10-15 all-time wrestler, then looking at quality of collegiate wins is a pretty lame way to make that comparison.

 

There's lots of better ways to make "pound for pound" best-of determinations. For example, most would agree that John Smith, Lee Kemp and Jordan Burroughs deserve to be considered among the best collegiate wrestlers ever irrespective of who they beat in college (and despite being "only" 2-timers), since they won world titles during or just after they finished competing -- so there's external evidence that they were the best in the world while still in college.

 

Also, most people would justifiably put Sanderson, Dake and P Smith in their top 5, for the simple reason that they won 4 times, without worrying about who they beat.

 

We can also look at number of losses. That's why Sanderson always gets top billing, and guys like Uetake are in the discussion too. Whether a redshirt year was taken factors in here too.

 

And wrestlers like Taylor and Gable are in the conversation not so much becasue of who they beat or the number of titles -- both would be 2xers if Taylor wins -- but because of how dominant they are/were in those wins. The stock of Askren and Ruth goes up based on this factor too.

 

By contrast, trying to somehow guage quality of competition is highly subjective and pretty far down the list of criteria that anyone considers when putting people on the P4P list. I've never heard *anyone* make the argument that so-and-so should be considered top 5 or top 10 P4P becasue his competition was really good. Who does that? Its just so hard to measure one defeated opponent against another defeated opponent, unless we're talking about noteworthy winds over bona fide legends.

 

Subjectivity aside, its deceiving to compare two wrestlers with different graduation years, since the one who graduated earlier will always look better, as his opponents will have had more time to rack up accolades. So if we are to compare quality of competition between Dake and Taylor, you first need to consider only Dake's wins through this point in his senior year, and then you need to consider only the existing accomplishments of the competitor, not the future accomplishments. Using that criteria, from my quick skim it looks to me like Dake and Taylor beat about the same number of AAs as of this point in their senior years. I'm not really sure it matters though, since its not a meaningful measure.

 

I do think legitimate arguments can be made for both Dake and Taylor to be very high on the all-time list. Dake, despite modest bonus point production, has the four titles, the lack of a redshirt and the head to heads wins over Taylor. Solid case for top 5.

 

The case for Taylor being among the very best P4P very similar to the argument that one might make for Gable -- in that his average number of team points per match/tournament is among the very best ever. If there was a fantasy wrestling draft for all coaches, and they could choose *anyone* at the peak of his/her career, Taylor would be one of the very first chosen -- probably top 5 -- since he just crushes all but the very best of the best (Dake) and racks up points for the team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's an improvement. Well done.

 

congrats MSU. you know have permission to continue posting. anyone else wishing to express opinions about PSU must similarly render unto TBar an essay of no less than 1500 words explaining in a fair and balanced method exactly how great PSU is and why. Thank you for your cooperation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's an improvement. Well done.

 

congrats MSU. you know have permission to continue posting. anyone else wishing to express opinions about PSU must similarly render unto TBar an essay of no less than 1500 words explaining in a fair and balanced method exactly how great PSU is and why. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

JK btw! totes JK!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea you have to suck PSU, Cael, and Taylor **** or you're a hater. If you post an opinion that these guys aren't perfect then you're a dbag. These PSU guys are so stupid it hurts. It makes my day to show these guys how ignorant they are. In a perfect world that snapinscore guy would post everyday for me. He's a perfect combo of Tigsy and Mopar put together. Just a dumb, delusional, Cael suck up. My favorite kind of poster! The sad part is the PSU wrestlers are so good and so talented but they have a pathetic fan base that makes them look so bad. (Obviously some PSU fans are great, not all are bad, just a lot are horrible, snaps, Tigs, Mopar you know who you are)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can someone please list his Top10 COLLEGE FOLKSTYLE wins. I am not interested in or trying to attack Taylor in this thread. He is as good as if not better as Askren was and that puts him as a borderline Top10-Top15 type. However, it seems like a lot on here would put him closer to Top5. I would be interested to see if someone on here can list the Top 10,COLLEGE FOLKSTYLE, wins of Sanderson, Pat Smith, Dake and whom they most likely see as the 4th and 5th (Very debatable spots) best D1 wrestlers. I would then like to, without bias(I know that is very hard to do), make a comparison between Taylor's competition and the other 5's.

 

I truly am interested to see if Taylor's wins stack up against the Elite 5.

 

If the point of this question is to see if Taylor is more of a top 5 all-time wrestler or a top 10-15 all-time wrestler, then looking at quality of collegiate wins is a pretty lame way to make that comparison.

 

There's lots of better ways to make "pound for pound" best-of determinations. For example, most would agree that John Smith, Lee Kemp and Jordan Burroughs deserve to be considered among the best collegiate wrestlers ever irrespective of who they beat in college (and despite being "only" 2-timers), since they won world titles during or just after they finished competing -- so there's external evidence that they were the best in the world while still in college.

 

Also, most people would justifiably put Sanderson, Dake and P Smith in their top 5, for the simple reason that they won 4 times, without worrying about who they beat.

 

We can also look at number of losses. That's why Sanderson always gets top billing, and guys like Uetake are in the discussion too. Whether a redshirt year was taken factors in here too.

 

And wrestlers like Taylor and Gable are in the conversation not so much becasue of who they beat or the number of titles -- both would be 2xers if Taylor wins -- but because of how dominant they are/were in those wins. The stock of Askren and Ruth goes up based on this factor too.

 

By contrast, trying to somehow guage quality of competition is highly subjective and pretty far down the list of criteria that anyone considers when putting people on the P4P list. I've never heard *anyone* make the argument that so-and-so should be considered top 5 or top 10 P4P becasue his competition was really good. Who does that? Its just so hard to measure one defeated opponent against another defeated opponent, unless we're talking about noteworthy winds over bona fide legends.

 

Subjectivity aside, its deceiving to compare two wrestlers with different graduation years, since the one who graduated earlier will always look better, as his opponents will have had more time to rack up accolades. So if we are to compare quality of competition between Dake and Taylor, you first need to consider only Dake's wins through this point in his senior year, and then you need to consider only the existing accomplishments of the competitor, not the future accomplishments. Using that criteria, from my quick skim it looks to me like Dake and Taylor beat about the same number of AAs as of this point in their senior years. I'm not really sure it matters though, since its not a meaningful measure.

 

I do think legitimate arguments can be made for both Dake and Taylor to be very high on the all-time list. Dake, despite modest bonus point production, has the four titles, the lack of a redshirt and the head to heads wins over Taylor. Solid case for top 5.

 

The case for Taylor being among the very best P4P very similar to the argument that one might make for Gable -- in that his average number of team points per match/tournament is among the very best ever. If there was a fantasy wrestling draft for all coaches, and they could choose *anyone* at the peak of his/her career, Taylor would be one of the very first chosen -- probably top 5 -- since he just crushes all but the very best of the best (Dake) and racks up points for the team.

 

Very well written and well thought out answer. The problem is it was NOT the answer to my question. It appears you cherry picked one line of my question and twisted it into something different. If you were to FULLY read the original post and several others you would see that I was SIMPLY interested in how his level of competition has compared to the best. This question is a DIRECT RESULT of Ohio Wrestling Administration's outrage that Taylor's level of competition has been considered weak. I also think this can be contributed to his incredible domination of his opponents. In doing some research it is VERY clear to me that he does not have a truly marquee win and his level of competition falls woefully short of Sanderson's and Dakes. I will try to go through Pat Smith's and Maybe Lincoln McIlravy's later as well but I think a trend has developed in that they all have achieved more by beating better competition.

 

Again this is not a slam DIRECTLY against Taylor as I still think he beats a ton of guys on anyone's list. It is just a point that an argument can be made that he has wrestled significantly weaker weight classes than several other ELITE wrestlers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The problem is it was NOT the answer to my question.

 

Of course its not the answer to your question. That's because the entire point of my post is that you're asking the WRONG question, at least if the point of your post is what you originally said it to be.

 

If you've since changed your mind, and now it turns out the real reason of your point is to stick it to OWA by claiming that Taylor's competition wasn't as great as he claimed it was, then fine, but that wasn't what you first wrote.

 

Either way, just make sure that when you compare Taylor to someone who's graduated, you compare apples to apples by looking only at (a) the other guy's wins as of this time in his senior year, and (b) the losing wrestler's accomplishments only at the time of the loss, not after. Dake and Taylor's "quality wins" are about the same if you look at it that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The problem is it was NOT the answer to my question.

 

Of course its not the answer to your question. That's because the entire point of my post is that you're asking the WRONG question, at least if the point of your post is what you originally said it to be.

 

If you've since changed your mind, and now it turns out the real reason of your point is to stick it to OWA by claiming that Taylor's competition wasn't as great as he claimed it was, then fine, but that wasn't what you first wrote.

 

Either way, just make sure that when you compare Taylor to someone who's graduated, you compare apples to apples by looking only at (a) the other guy's wins as of this time in his senior year, and (b) the losing wrestler's accomplishments only at the time of the loss, not after. Dake and Taylor's "quality wins" are about the same if you look at it that way.

 

So you are telling me my question is WRONG, the way I asked it was wrong, you know what I meant better than me, the question I should have asked and the answers I should expect?

 

DO YOU WORK FOR THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION?

 

Let's analyze my original post. The TITLE cannot be disputed. IT CLEARLY ASKS a QUESTION that cannot be misunderstood. I then ask for someone to list Taylor's top 10 wins. Again, this cannot be misunderstood. I then try to set the TONE by telling people it is not meant to attack Taylor. I then say where I feel he ranks against DI wrestlers of All Time. I then say where I feel the main group of people I am asking the question to feel he ranks(TOP5ISH). FOR SIMPLICITY and TIME I ask how his TOP10 WINS COMPARE to THAT GROUP'S TOP5 WRESTLERS. I then END MY POST by AGAIN asking for a COMPARISON between Taylor's competition and the OTHER 5.

 

If this confuses you I am sorry but it sure LOOKS EASY for an 8 year old to understand what I was asking for!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can someone please list his Top10 COLLEGE FOLKSTYLE wins. I am not interested in or trying to attack Taylor in this thread. He is as good as if not better as Askren was and that puts him as a borderline Top10-Top15 type. However, it seems like a lot on here would put him closer to Top5. I would be interested to see if someone on here can list the Top 10,COLLEGE FOLKSTYLE, wins of Sanderson, Pat Smith, Dake and whom they most likely see as the 4th and 5th (Very debatable spots) best D1 wrestlers. I would then like to, without bias(I know that is very hard to do), make a comparison between Taylor's competition and the other 5's.

 

I truly am interested to see if Taylor's wins stack up against the Elite 5.

 

If the point of this question is to see if Taylor is more of a top 5 all-time wrestler or a top 10-15 all-time wrestler, then looking at quality of collegiate wins is a pretty lame way to make that comparison.

 

There's lots of better ways to make "pound for pound" best-of determinations. For example, most would agree that John Smith, Lee Kemp and Jordan Burroughs deserve to be considered among the best collegiate wrestlers ever irrespective of who they beat in college (and despite being "only" 2-timers), since they won world titles during or just after they finished competing -- so there's external evidence that they were the best in the world while still in college.

 

Also, most people would justifiably put Sanderson, Dake and P Smith in their top 5, for the simple reason that they won 4 times, without worrying about who they beat.

 

We can also look at number of losses. That's why Sanderson always gets top billing, and guys like Uetake are in the discussion too. Whether a redshirt year was taken factors in here too.

 

And wrestlers like Taylor and Gable are in the conversation not so much becasue of who they beat or the number of titles -- both would be 2xers if Taylor wins -- but because of how dominant they are/were in those wins. The stock of Askren and Ruth goes up based on this factor too.

 

By contrast, trying to somehow guage quality of competition is highly subjective and pretty far down the list of criteria that anyone considers when putting people on the P4P list. I've never heard *anyone* make the argument that so-and-so should be considered top 5 or top 10 P4P becasue his competition was really good. Who does that? Its just so hard to measure one defeated opponent against another defeated opponent, unless we're talking about noteworthy winds over bona fide legends.

 

Subjectivity aside, its deceiving to compare two wrestlers with different graduation years, since the one who graduated earlier will always look better, as his opponents will have had more time to rack up accolades. So if we are to compare quality of competition between Dake and Taylor, you first need to consider only Dake's wins through this point in his senior year, and then you need to consider only the existing accomplishments of the competitor, not the future accomplishments. Using that criteria, from my quick skim it looks to me like Dake and Taylor beat about the same number of AAs as of this point in their senior years. I'm not really sure it matters though, since its not a meaningful measure.

 

I do think legitimate arguments can be made for both Dake and Taylor to be very high on the all-time list. Dake, despite modest bonus point production, has the four titles, the lack of a redshirt and the head to heads wins over Taylor. Solid case for top 5.

 

The case for Taylor being among the very best P4P very similar to the argument that one might make for Gable -- in that his average number of team points per match/tournament is among the very best ever. If there was a fantasy wrestling draft for all coaches, and they could choose *anyone* at the peak of his/her career, Taylor would be one of the very first chosen -- probably top 5 -- since he just crushes all but the very best of the best (Dake) and racks up points for the team.

----

 

Nice post BAC, with some good points. Two things I would comment on though.

 

1. While I agree that comparing guys with different graduation years can be deceiving, it applies more to wide spreads. In the case of DT and Dake, they are only a year apart, and actually started together. During that first year Taylor gets beat in intrasquad match by Cyler while Dake wins an ncaa crown. Big edge to Dake there. And with DT still yet to finish, things could happen his sr year to further help or possibly hurt his "all time" standing.

 

2. I don't necessarily agree that how a guy does in FS after college somehow makes him a better collegiate wrestler. Some guys improve. Some guys are just better suited to FS. If success in Worlds/Olympics were the trump card in proving how good a guy was in collegiate wrestling, then you'd have World gold medalist, 1x ncaa champ Bill Zadick being considered a better collegiate wrestler than Kolat, McIravy, Joe Williams, Herbert, Askren, etc. I doubt most would agree he was better as a collegiate wrestler. There are plenty of other examples of that sort of thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The problem is it was NOT the answer to my question.

 

Of course its not the answer to your question. That's because the entire point of my post is that you're asking the WRONG question, at least if the point of your post is what you originally said it to be.

 

If you've since changed your mind, and now it turns out the real reason of your point is to stick it to OWA by claiming that Taylor's competition wasn't as great as he claimed it was, then fine, but that wasn't what you first wrote.

 

Either way, just make sure that when you compare Taylor to someone who's graduated, you compare apples to apples by looking only at (a) the other guy's wins as of this time in his senior year, and (b) the losing wrestler's accomplishments only at the time of the loss, not after. Dake and Taylor's "quality wins" are about the same if you look at it that way.

 

So you are telling me my question is WRONG, the way I asked it was wrong, you know what I meant better than me, the question I should have asked and the answers I should expect?

 

DO YOU WORK FOR THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION?

 

Let's analyze my original post. The TITLE cannot be disputed. IT CLEARLY ASKS a QUESTION that cannot be misunderstood. I then ask for someone to list Taylor's top 10 wins. Again, this cannot be misunderstood. I then try to set the TONE by telling people it is not meant to attack Taylor. I then say where I feel he ranks against DI wrestlers of All Time. I then say where I feel the main group of people I am asking the question to feel he ranks(TOP5ISH). FOR SIMPLICITY and TIME I ask how his TOP10 WINS COMPARE to THAT GROUP'S TOP5 WRESTLERS. I then END MY POST by AGAIN asking for a COMPARISON between Taylor's competition and the OTHER 5.

 

If this confuses you I am sorry but it sure LOOKS EASY for an 8 year old to understand what I was asking for!

 

I think your original post was pretty clear that you were asking to compare Taylor's top 10 collegiate wins to Dakes so you could evaluate the supposed debate whether Taylor was more akin to a top 5 all-time wrestler or a top 10-15 all-time wrestler. The thrust of my response was that there's better criteria to look at if you're truly trying to figure out where Taylor should fall in the all-time list. I'm not sure why this is so perplexing for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am perplexed because you are acting like you know what I am asking and what I meant and telling me I don't. That is considerably annoying considering you have no clue who I am. I tried to explain it to you and you still tell me I am wrong. Are you sure you don't work in politics? You tell me what I mean and what is better for me without actually answering the question I asked. I can see there is no point arguing with you but please don't tell me I don't know what I mean. Out of respect I wudnt do that to u and ask u to please do the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1. While I agree that comparing guys with different graduation years can be deceiving, it applies more to wide spreads. In the case of DT and Dake, they are only a year apart, and actually started together. During that first year Taylor gets beat in intrasquad match by Cyler while Dake wins an ncaa crown. Big edge to Dake there. And with DT still yet to finish, things could happen his sr year to further help or possibly hurt his "all time" standing.

 

2. I don't necessarily agree that how a guy does in FS after college somehow makes him a better collegiate wrestler. Some guys improve. Some guys are just better suited to FS. If success in Worlds/Olympics were the trump card in proving how good a guy was in collegiate wrestling, then you'd have World gold medalist, 1x ncaa champ Bill Zadick being considered a better collegiate wrestler than Kolat, McIravy, Joe Williams, Herbert, Askren, etc. I doubt most would agree he was better as a collegiate wrestler. There are plenty of other examples of that sort of thing.

 

On the first point, I agree that the difference is less pronounced where there's only a year difference rather than many years, but its still a difference. We're still using 4 years' worth of wins by Dake vs. barely over 3 for Taylor -- which is why I say that any comparison should use only Dake's wins through this point in his senior year. As an aside, it strikes me as misleading to give a "big edge" to Dake since "Taylor gets beat in intrasquad match by Cyler while Dake wins an ncaa crown." Cyler was an AA, and Dake had early season losses his freshman year too (e.g. Zack Bailey). Both obviously improved over the course of the year. We can only speculate how Taylor would have fared had he wrestled his true freshman year. I think we can credit Dake for winning as a true frosh without using it as a penalty against Taylor.

 

On the second point, maybe I was unclear but I didn't mean to suggest looking at how guys fare in freestyle long after college -- rather I think I said we look at those guys who excelled at freestyle while they were in still in collage or immediately after. That's why I mentioned Smith, Kemp and Burroughs: Smith won a title while in college, and Kemp and Burroughs won titles immediately after graduating. I agree that the point loses its relevance the more that time passes between college and freestyle success -- with Zadick being a great example of a guy who didn't reach his full potential until well after college. But the styles are similar enough that if you are good enough to win a world/Olympic title during a year you were in college, its fair to say you were probably that much beter than your peers in college. Can you think of a wrestler who won a world or Olympic freestyle title while in college or the year of graduation who you wouldn't consider an extremely elite college wrestler? I can't. And I, for one, would elevate Burroughs, Kemp and Smith above other 2x champs in an all-time list since their freestyle success at such a young age suggests that they were probably as good during their senior years as just about any other collegiate wrestler in history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am perplexed because you are acting like you know what I am asking and what I meant and telling me I don't. That is considerably annoying considering you have no clue who I am. I tried to explain it to you and you still tell me I am wrong. Are you sure you don't work in politics? You tell me what I mean and what is better for me without actually answering the question I asked. I can see there is no point arguing with you but please don't tell me I don't know what I mean. Out of respect I wudnt do that to u and ask u to please do the same.

 

I didn't tell you what you meant, I told you what you wrote.

 

And i said if you meant something different than what you wrote, or that you now intend something different than what you wrote, that's fine -- but its still not what you wrote originally.

 

If you disagree with my interpretation of what you wrote originally, that's fine too, we'll agree to disagree, but I suspect that most folks had the same interpretation as I did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...