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MSU158

How do Taylor's Top10 Wins compare to the likes of Dake?

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That is correct, Hurricane, I'd pick Metcalf for my team instead of Caldwell.

 

Why? I take a longer view, and consider value to a team over the wrestler's collegiate career.

 

So, while you like to focus on Caldwell's one great year, when he won his single ncaa title, apparently you ignore the other 3 years.

 

Such as his first year, when he dnp and got pinned twice in the ncaa tournament. Or the second year when he took 5th, losing matches to Jordan Burroughs (who Metcalf beat 8-4 in semi's), and Bubba Jenkins (who Metcalf beat in the finals 14-8).

That's interesting, rossel3. I wasn't aware that Caldwell and Burroughs wrestled each other at NCAA's.

I'll look for some video clips of that match and post what I find.

 

Say, you're not making things up again, are you?

.

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That is correct, Hurricane, I'd pick Metcalf for my team instead of Caldwell.

 

Why? I take a longer view, and consider value to a team over the wrestler's collegiate career.

 

So, while you like to focus on Caldwell's one great year, when he won his single ncaa title, apparently you ignore the other 3 years.

 

Such as his first year, when he dnp and got pinned twice in the ncaa tournament. Or the second year when he took 5th, losing matches to Jordan Burroughs (who Metcalf beat 8-4 in semi's), and Bubba Jenkins (who Metcalf beat in the finals 14-8).

That's interesting, rossel3. I wasn't aware that Caldwell and Burroughs wrestled each other at NCAA's.

I'll look for some video clips of that match and post what I find.

 

Say, you're not making things up again, are you?

.

 

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Oops.. ya got me. Nothing intentional, but a simple mistake. Caldwell's 2nd loss at 2008 ncaa was to J Churella not Jordan Burroughs. For the record, here's how they fared:

 

The 2008 ncaa had Metcalf as 1st place:

1st round - W by fall (Rowe Okla)

2nd round - W by 10-5 (Kinser Ind)

3rd round - W by 2-1 (Palmer tOSU)

Semi - W by 8-4 (Burroughs Nebr)

Finals - W by 14-8 (Jenkins PSU)

 

Caldwell at 2008 ncaa as 5th place:

1st round - W by fall (Roberts NC St)

2nd round - W by fall (Carter CMU)

3rd round - W by 4-1 (Schlatter Minn)

4th round - L by 12-8 (Jenkins PSU)

Consol - L by 6-1 (Churella Mich)

W by medical fft (O'Connor Harv)

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That is correct, Hurricane, I'd pick Metcalf for my team instead of Caldwell.

 

Why? I take a longer view, and consider value to a team over the wrestler's collegiate career.

 

So, while you like to focus on Caldwell's one great year, when he won his single ncaa title, apparently you ignore the other 3 years.

 

Such as his first year, when he dnp and got pinned twice in the ncaa tournament. Or the second year when he took 5th, losing matches to Jordan Burroughs (who Metcalf beat 8-4 in semi's), and Bubba Jenkins (who Metcalf beat in the finals 14-8).

That's interesting, rossel3. I wasn't aware that Caldwell and Burroughs wrestled each other at NCAA's.

I'll look for some video clips of that match and post what I find.

 

Say, you're not making things up again, are you?

.

 

-----

 

Oops.. ya got me. Nothing intentional, but a simple mistake. Caldwell's 2nd loss at 2008 ncaa was to J Churella not Jordan Burroughs. For the record, here's how they fared:

 

The 2008 ncaa had Metcalf as 1st place:

1st round - W by fall (Rowe Okla)

2nd round - W by 10-5 (Kinser Ind)

3rd round - W by 2-1 (Palmer tOSU)

Semi - W by 8-4 (Burroughs Nebr)

Finals - W by 14-8 (Jenkins PSU)

 

Caldwell at 2008 ncaa as 5th place:

1st round - W by fall (Roberts NC St)

2nd round - W by fall (Carter CMU)

3rd round - W by 4-1 (Schlatter Minn)

4th round - L by 12-8 (Jenkins PSU)

Consol - L by 6-1 (Churella Mich)

W by medical fft (O'Connor Harv)

That's interesting. So for all your talk about there being 5 NCAA champions in the field against Metcalf, they were all really future champions, with one exception. Only the # 2 seeded Schlatter had actually won a title in the past - and Caldwell beat him to advance to the semifinals against Jenkins.

 

BTW, you may also be wrong regarding your assertion about Metcalf 's superiority over Caldwell in bonus points. As you may recall, earlier you stated the following:

 

Metcalf scored tons of bonus points for duals and tons of team points at ncaa, far more that Caldwell over his career.

The only data I've seen recently concerns their respective career number of falls and it appears Caldwell leads Metcalf in that category (both in number of pins and pinning percentage). Wrestling stats.com doesn't include Caldwell's injury-shortened final year, but nonetheless shows him with 49 falls in 101 bouts (a 48.51% pinning percentage). The same source shows Metcalf wrestling 10 more matches, but with two fewer pins (47 falls in 111 matches, a 42.34% rate). And Caldwell undoubtedly picked up more pins in his final year.

 

As a matter of fact, the year Metcalf won the Hodge, Caldwell out-pinned him by a significant margin. Caldwell, who won the Schalles award that year, had 23 pins to Caldwell's 12. By percentage, Caldwell pinned 56.10% of his opponents to Metcalf's 27.50% in the 2007-08 season. (One of Caldwell's 23 pins that year was his exciting first-period spladle over Metcalf at the St. Edwards Duals.)

 

Perhaps you have some quantitative data to present supporting your position that Metcalf produced more bonus points than Caldwell. Metcalf may have had more techs and/or majors than Caldwell. Even so, those wins aren't worth as many bonus points as pins and - based on the data we have available now - it looks as though Darrion had the edge over Brent in bonus points production.

.

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BTW, you may also be wrong regarding your assertion about Metcalf 's superiority over Caldwell in bonus points. As you may recall, earlier you stated the following:

 

Metcalf scored tons of bonus points for duals and tons of team points at ncaa, far more that Caldwell over his career.

The only data I've seen recently concerns their respective career number of falls and it appears Caldwell leads Metcalf in that category (both in number of pins and pinning percentage). Wrestling stats.com doesn't include Caldwell's injury-shortened final year, but nonetheless shows him with 49 falls in 101 bouts (a 48.51% pinning percentage). The same source shows Metcalf wrestling 10 more matches, but with two fewer pins (47 falls in 111 matches, a 42.34% rate). And Caldwell undoubtedly picked up more pins in his final year.

 

Perhaps you have some quantitative data to present supporting your position that Metcalf produced more bonus points than Caldwell. Metcalf may have had more techs and/or majors than Caldwell. Even so, those wins aren't worth as many bonus points as pins and - based on the data we have available now - it looks as though Darrion had the edge over Brent in bonus points production.

.

 

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Actually, Hurricane, if you look at team points produced at ncaa tourney over their careers. Metcalf produced more than Caldwell (my original assertion), and it is easy to show.

 

Metcalf ncaa tourney career:

 

1st, 2nd 1st

14-1 record

3 falls, 4 MDs

 

Caldwell:

 

dnp, 5th, 1st, dnp

12-6 record

4 falls, 4 MDs

 

Not sure of exact scoring at ncaas during those years, but using 16-12-10-9-7-6-4-3 pts for placement, 2 for fall, 1 for MD, 1 for advancement on championship side, 1/2 on consol, I get:

 

Metcalf = 68 career ncaa pts total from 3 tourneys

Caldwell = 51 pts (and that includes 4 bonus pts from ffts in 2 matches) total from 4 tourneys.

 

Your focus on career falls, and not counting TFs and MDs is a very incomplete picture. Metcalf had a gas tank. He had many TF's and MD's.

 

Plus, the competition each guy faced would also be important. Statistically, it is more likely a stud will score bonus pts when facing Findlay, Davidson or Mercyhurst rather than vs PSU, Okla St or Minnesota. It's a bit apples and oranges.

 

Scoring team points in March consistently is probably the single most relevant stat, and on that, Metcalf's performances surpassed Caldwell's.

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Well, rossel3, in that case you're using a different metric to compare the two instead of the one you originally proposed. We all know that Metcalf outscored Caldwell in NCAA tournaments (except for the one time they wrestled each other). However, your contention about bonus points was that Metcalf scored "far more than Caldwell over his career."

 

In view of the parameters you established, the relevant data is the number of bonus point wins by category each wrestler accumulated. In short, how many total pins, techs, and majors did each one have "over his career" (again as you originally put it). We'd need to look at both actual numbers and percentage rates per total career matches wrestled.

 

Currently, we only have data on pins, and in that category of bonus points, its clear that Caldwell outperformed Metcalf. To wit, Darrion pinned 58 opponents in 122 matches over his career, a 47.54% pinning rate. Metcalf accumulated 47 career pins in 111 matches for a 42.34% rate.

 

Now, if we had similar numbers for their other bonus point wins, we could determine empirically whether your original claim is valid or not. Since we don't, and because falls are superior to techs and majors, the relevant data (so far) suggests that Darrion had the edge over Brent in bonus point production over their respective careers.

.

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BTW, rossel3, I saw what you did there. :lol:

Actually, Hurricane, if you look at team points produced at ncaa tourney over their careers. Metcalf produced more than Caldwell (my original assertion), and it is easy to show.

Actually, rossel3, your original assertion wasn't limited to "team points produced at ncaa tourney over their careers." In fact, you explicitly included bonus points scored in duals, as well.

 

Metcalf scored tons of bonus points for duals and tons of team points at ncaa, far more that Caldwell over his career.

Based on the above, I think its fair to say that your original assertion was that Metcalf scored more total bonus points over his career than Caldwell. And, so far, the only thing that's been established is that, in the top category of bonus point wins (i.e., pins), Caldwell clearly outperformed Metcalf.

.

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If Taylor had beaten Jenkins and Dake, he'd be in Sanderson territory. But he didn't. End of story.

 

I wouldn't compare Taylor to Gable. Gable lost one match in college and was a world and olympic champ. In addition, as an ineligible freshman Gable was undefeated, won the Midlands and was named outstanding wrestlers there. Taylor lost to both K. Sanderson and Jenkins as a red shirt freshman and since then he has lost three. Only one of Taylor's three loses could arguably be considered an upset.

 

David Taylor is a great wrestler but so far he has not won the matches necessary to move up with the all-time greats. His only chance to get there is by winning the Ncaa's this year and then a couple world freestyle titles.

 

Finally, had Gable lost to his era's Bubba Jenkins and Kyle Dake, he'd be no legend. But he didn't. Gable one loss is considered an "upset" because Gable proved it to be just that.

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BTW, rossel3, I saw what you did there. :lol:
Actually, Hurricane, if you look at team points produced at ncaa tourney over their careers. Metcalf produced more than Caldwell (my original assertion), and it is easy to show.

Actually, rossel3, your original assertion wasn't limited to "team points produced at ncaa tourney over their careers." In fact, you explicitly included bonus points scored in duals, as well.

 

Metcalf scored tons of bonus points for duals and tons of team points at ncaa, far more that Caldwell over his career.

Based on the above, I think its fair to say that your original assertion was that Metcalf scored more total bonus points over his career than Caldwell. And, so far, the only thing that's been established is that, in the top category of bonus point wins (i.e., pins), Caldwell clearly outperformed Metcalf.

.

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Hurricane, before you conclude Caldwell scored more career bonus pts than Metcalf, you need to take into account not just falls, but TFs and MDs. Here they are:

 

Metcalf career TF's - 18, MDs - 20

Caldwell career TF's - 8, MDs 14

 

That puts Metcalf's TF + MD bonus points as high as 170 pts vs 96 for Caldwell.

 

That's a net difference of 74 bonus points in favor of Metcalf.

 

So, clearly, even with the edge in falls that Caldwell had, Metcalf more than made up for it in TFs and MDs.

 

Metcalf outscored Caldwell not only in March ncaa team pts, but also had more bonus points in his career. This is despite having only 3 years vs 4 for Caldwell, and with a more rigorous schedule.

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Bonus points are extremely overrated imo. Metcalf, DT, Caldwell, etc. have a ton of bonus points, yet are still tiers below the all time greatest. I thought that Dake's domination of Taylor would kind of put a hold on all the bonus point talk, I guess I was wrong. :)

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