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BigApple

Posting Over the Ankle

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Thanks BigApple for the specifics. Maybe I'm an old timer at heart. I like this especially:

 

"I was not a fan of the way stalling was called during the peak of the Iowa run under Gable. Using and underhook and winning the "sumo" contest without actually taking a shot was not something I and many old timers liked."

 

It's why I will always be against a push out rule for folkstyle.

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superold,

 

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. What the hell is "unfalsifiability?" Actually, don't answer that. Perhaps I should have used a different word like "probably" been used in the past when referring to todays techniques. However, if one looks at the Greek wrestling statues, particularly the Two Wrestlers, it sure looks like a guillotine to me. I mean, how many other ways can someone put a leg in over a 2000+ period of time? There can't be too many variations that are sound. Same with any other move, in my opinion of course. I have a couple of techniques that I have never seen anyone else do...ever. But I certainly wouldn't claim the inventor of any of them because I believe that someone else probably has done the same thing in the past, even though I wasn't there to witness it.

 

I have not a clue what a "leg pass" is but I would guess it is a terminology difference. A slip-under, in high school, was called a high crotch when I got to college.

 

Warren,

Your recent post about "sumo" wrestling and Iowa was right on again. When those rules changed, many of those long, lanky guys didn't stand a chance. It took the cliche "If muscle meant everything, a bull would catch a rabbit" and tossed it right out the window. I remember thinking that I would have to make sure that my conditioning was superb, because I did not want to be one of those headlines "Iowa beats NCAA Champion, Again!" And wrestling on that humongous mat made the job even tougher. Kudos to Gable for capitalizing on the the rules. Absolutely brilliant, if you ask me. I was 8-0 in college against Dan's kids and I am proud of that accomplishment. The last three times I won by one point....(dual meet, East/West All-Star, and NCAA) and stalled my butt off each time. If you understand the rules, they become a great weapon, if you don't understand them, they work against you. Gable used the "push" rule to his advantage, and I used the stalling rule to mine. God, I love this game

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Probably 20 years ago I stumped Port Robertson with a question as to who invented the bar arm ride. He said some Egyptian 5,000 years ago. Then I asked him who taught it him. There was a long pause, the he said it was so long ago he honestly remember. In context this was. Man who could remember every football player at OU from 1947-1984 by their first, middle, and last name. He nothing was new in wrestling just new to the guy learning it.

 

As an example the Metzger wasn't invented by my buddy Andre, but he used it so often it was given his last name.

 

Port said two goid wrestlers working out with each other will always come up with something no one has seen for awhile. I remember him asking Anthony Gizoni to show him what he was doing. Port said he perfected it, but named after Gizoni. When rules change wrestlers and coaches adapt. But also as some coaches retire techniques they taught disappear. I always watch matches at the NCAAs to see if something is done I haven't seen before.

 

I remember my last conversation with Dave Schultz as to when he would do an instructional video on wrestling since he probably knew more technique than anyone. He said he'd some move done in a match and think I used to do that move. Then he introduced me to Valentin Jordanav and said if I ever do one, i'll want him on it as he knows a lot of stuff. Sadly the next spring he was murdered.

 

I plan on bringing Stan Abel for about 45 minutes on a day when we don't want the team wrestling hard. The head assistant asked me if he was physically able since he was in the hospital late this summer with a heart problem. Kids give me a hard time when I tell them when and who taught me a move. I'm old enough to be their grandfather. I'm thinking this might be my last year. I've helped coach 31 state champs is Kansas and Arizona. I've had 3 take 2nd place since I moved back to OK. I have one that can win 285, if he makes the finals i think I'll insist on being in the corner.

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My old high school coach, Siddens, used to tell this story --

 

Over Christmas break all the college kids would come back from college to beat up the high schools kids -- and keep them humble at West High. it was a very humbling experience for us high school kids.

 

Another thing they did was to explain to Siddens all the new moves they learned from their college coaches.

 

Siddens used to laugh about it, as he would listen, knowing that he had shown the college wrestlers those same moves dozens of times in the West High school wrestling room for years and years.

 

That brings me to transition to this thread -- ankle rides and countering them --

 

I was getting pretty good my sophomore year in high school -- and had beaten some highly ranked kids.

 

In the districts, a kid who wasn't nearly as good I was, beat me by riding my ankle most of the match. I had no clue how to get out. (Again, I must have been daydreaming when Siddens showed how to counter an ankle ride.)

 

So my year was over.

 

I must admit that it was a minor relief and consolation to lose as now I was able to EAT -- anything I wanted! Yea!

 

Siddens came into the library about two weeks later (after state) and talked to me while I was studying.

 

He said he couldn't sleep thinking about how that kid rode my ankle -- and that we were going to fix that for next year.

 

Frankly, his comment struck me like a lightning bolt -- and like this -- the guy cares more about me than I care about myself! (Siddens seemed to always know just the right thing to say to motivate.)

 

Again, I must admit that I was shamed -- and ashamed. I felt like a jerk -- not really caring that I had lost.

 

Anyway, both he and Blubaugh made sure I knew how to defeat an ankle ride. IMO, it's really not that hard.

 

In general -- My strong feeling, after Siddens talked to me -- and Blubaugh worked with me -- was that if I moved first there was no way the guy was going to get my ankle -- and I can't really remember many who rode me for more than a few seconds from then on. I did learn to love escapes and reversals!

 

As little as I cared for Sanders he did have a great quote that I totally agree with (which I will probably mangle) "When I'm on the bottom, I've got you right where I want you." (close enough.)

 

I always felt the same way. And one thing that I thought was most important about getting really good in the "down" position was that I never had to hold back on my feet as I knew if I got taken down, I could get right out within 10 seconds or so -- and go after my opponent again. IMO being good in referee's position makes you better on your feet. That's also an incredible psychological advantage against all opponents as they know you are constantly coming after them.

 

Enuf.

 

And -- thanks Pat for the kind words.

 

PS If I told this before, sorry -- I thought my prior comments disappeared into the either.?

 

Best -

 

DA

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If you go on flo's technique wave and watch John Smith teaching his low single series, he himself says that the techniques he is teaching are "brand new" and weren't around when he was wrestling. Also the funk defense or the "leg pass" may have accidentally occurred in a few matches throughout history but it was far from a taught technique the way it is today. Guys weren't using it as a defense the way Ben Askren did. In freestyle and GR the technique is nonexistent because you willingly expose your back so it is a uniquely American technique. Whether you like it or not there are techniques around today that we're NOT around even a couple decades ago.

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I have debated responding to this topic as there are so many great wrestlers and coaches and varying opinions on the subject. Although I agree that certain moves if executed correctly should and most often would achieve the desired result I firmly believe it is NOT that simple to expect EVERYONE to be ABLE to do it. Remember, it is not just about you executing the move but about how your opponent responds to how you execute it.

 

One thing I learned between wrestling and coaching is no matter what and how long you drill something, a large portion of those drilling do not gain more than a rudimentary understanding of the move. Even less are able to master it. I agree that drilling for every situation will at least give every wrestler an understanding of what position they are in and what to do to best maximize their and/or minimize their opponents position. However, I think drilling everything helps each wrestler find his strengths. Instead of expecting every wrestler to not just know a counter AND be able to execute it, I would rather see a wrestler who has developed a strength or 2 in each position where he has become confident enough to force a match to be wrestled his way.

 

I guess what I am saying is that even at the highest level some wrestlers simply CANNOT execute certain moves. For instance, I was admittedly not at the level as many who have posted on this topic but one thing I could do was stand up against ANYONE. I don't care what position they had me in. And most of that didn't come from technique but more from speed, strength and explosion. Another instance is that I do not have long arms. I was not short for my weight class (5'9") but no matter how hard I trained, and believe me I wanted to master them, ankle picks and cradles just weren't my strengths.

 

We can talk about moves until we are blue in the face but in the end wrestling truly comes down to wrestling to YOUR strengths while minimizing your opponents strengths. What seems so easy to some is often the OPPOSITE to most.

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Bill Smith on his whizzer series Dvd says he could practice what Pat Smith (who is the wrestling room with him) for 100s of time and never be good at it, because he lacked quickness.

 

After Tommy Evans retired as OU head coach, he became a full time pilot with the Oklahoma Army National Guard. We'd get 24 additional flight training periods annually in addition to drill weekends and summer camps. Tommy said whenever you want to fly call me. All the pilots want to talk wrestling, you are the only one that understands it. So for the next two years i'd fly with Tommy for a couple of hours talking wrestling. One day walking in he said something has stuck with me to this day. He said you only need 5 moves to be a world champion. The only problem is you have to be able to work those 5 moves on anybody in the world. Then he said you need to be able to stop ever move in the world.

 

So I try to find the 5 best moves for each wrestler I work with. One leg attack, one escape or reversal, one breakdown, one ride, and one pinning series. On defense the front head & arm series and whizzer will stop most offensive moves.

 

I have extremely long arms 36" sleeve and i am 6'. So the cradle series was made for me. I lack quickness, so i figured

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I don't think it was necessarily because he didn't know how to execute any simple, fundamental moves on the bottom. I think his problem was that he kept going for the big move. Walsh appeared to me to be wrestling with a "pin or bust" attitude. I'm guessing that's how he pinned 15 consecutive opponents going into the match. Ultimately, I think his problem was his strategy.

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You might be right -- but I don't know any pinning combinations that one can execute when one's foot is in one's butt.

 

Do you?

 

I just frankly agree with Big Apple -- after about 4 minutes of having your foot in your butt, one would think that it's time for a new plan, maybe??

 

That plan is plant that foot and rotate back as soon as the ref blows the whistle -- instead of lunging forward -- the worst thing he could possibly do. I learned that as a sophomore in high school.

 

And I thought everybody knew that.

 

DA

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You might be right -- but I don't know any pinning combinations that one can execute when one's foot is in one's butt.

 

Do you?

 

I just frankly agree with Big Apple -- after about 4 minutes of having your foot in your butt, one would think that it's time for a new plan, maybe??

 

That plan is plant that foot and rotate back as soon as the ref blows the whistle -- instead of lunging forward -- the worst thing he could possibly do. I learned that as a sophomore in high school.

 

And I thought everybody knew that.

 

DA

 

 

I guess you could be right. I do think some of it was a poor strategy. It's very hard to believe that he didn't know any basic technique to get out of the bottom.

 

DAA, did you see who was in the corner coaching him? Didn't that guy have a bad habit of going for the big move, rather than the basics, on the bottom, during his career? I recall that costing him big when it counted the most. :)

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I shouldn't say this -- but I saw him wrestle when he was about 8 years old -- and I couldn't believe the skills.

 

His dad (an MSU wrestler) asked me -- and I told him -- don't let him just rely on counters and defensive skills.

 

Make him work on the bottom.

 

A few years ago I watched him at the Midlands. I think he pinned everybody -- and was OW.

 

What bothered me was that he couldn't get out on the bottom. I kind of blamed it on Minkel -- spending most his practices teaching Greco moves, I assumed.

 

Anyway, here he was a junior or senior and he didn't even try to get out on bottom -- and it looked to me that he didn't know how to get out on the bottom.

 

His dad asked me, so I told him -- NIck needs to bring in a really good coach to teach him skills on the bottom -- or he is NEVER going to win a national championship.

 

The rest is history --

 

I think arguably -- Nick is the best wrestler who never won an NCAA championship (Ok -- I SAID ARGUABLY!!).

 

I blame it on four things --

 

1. Minkel

2. Never having to shoot when he was young -- always doing that spladle crap and front headlocks.

3. Did I mention Minkel?

4. Never being on the bottom enough to have to learn fundamentals of being down position. When you pin everybody in the first period for 10 years, why worry about being in the down position.

 

DA

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I coach at a club in the Pacific Northwest. I just showed this to someone the other week.

 

It continually surprises me how little the kids know about mat wrestling these days. Even such basic things as movement on the bottom and hand control, nevermind knowing how to do an "advanced" move like a peterson roll. As others have mentioned, it seems the focus is all on neutral and takedowns now.

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