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SalvatoreG

Iowa... Honest question

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Let's face it. Penn State was a sleeping giant for decades. Everyone knew that, with the right coaching staff in place, they'd be national champs virtually every year if they simply kept the top in-state talent and occasionally cherry-picked from the rest of the country.

 

Returning to the OP, it didn't look like Iowa was shooting in the match because they were outclassed. Penn State's team (and program, for that matter) is on another level.

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Back when I was in college, Iowa's guys were obviously physical and did a ton of pushing, however, they all had nice varied leg attacks/offenses. McIlravy for an example could change levels so effectively and take you down ten different ways. Ironside would keep shooting and shooting and shooting unitl your broke. Brands though obviously very physical, had a bunch of different shots they would hit effectively. It seems like the new breed things all its about is pushing and being physical and missing the whole other dimension of it.

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to me it came down to two top 5 ranked guys from Iowa getting bonus pointed. i didnt think that means there is anything "wrong" with Iowa, just that Penn State has 2 of the best of the best in the line up.

 

basically everyone looks bad wrestling against penn state. from my outsiders vantage, both programs look solid and well stocked with loads of young talent. penn state is just really, REALLY good. couldn't tell you if there are deeper, philosophical or recruiting issue with Iowa's program but if they're there, i didn't notice them from the dual.

 

PSU's duals against minnesota and okie state look to be equally thrilling. hope everyone stays healthy.

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They said it right, the iowa style, just isn't it. You can't push your way to a win against superior technique. They seem to focus now in Iowa on being tough wrestlers solely versus having tough wrestling skills that's a big difference.

 

To say that Iowa doesn't get elite talent is false, they do, it's just in this day and age lot's of young wrestlers have access to the best technique, clinics, and so on ... so being able to simply out will wrestlers as Iowa who had a lead in talent, access, toughness just doesn't work any longer.

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It certainly isn't his "bad guy" image, because he is terrible at sportsmanship.

 

 

Sometimes it seems like he doesn't want to be out there and sometimes he wrestles hard. I dunno?

 

I think he's a fan favorite because he always seems to win in grueling fashion. It's never very pretty, sometimes seems improbable, and often involves a hard ride-out and some tough defense which I think the crowd can easily get behind. Also the mustache.

 

That said, at this point Brown appears to be a clear step above Evans.

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They said it right, the iowa style, just isn't it. You can't push your way to a win against superior technique. They seem to focus now in Iowa on being tough wrestlers solely versus having tough wrestling skills that's a big difference.

 

To say that Iowa doesn't get elite talent is false, they do, it's just in this day and age lot's of young wrestlers have access to the best technique, clinics, and so on ... so being able to simply out will wrestlers as Iowa who had a lead in talent, access, toughness just doesn't work any longer.

 

I am sorry but your account of Iowa wrestling has some SERIOUS flaws in it. The "IOWA STYLE" stills works against ALMOST all DI competition. St. John will most likely be a 4x AA,3x Finalist and 2x champ without having ANY truly visible offensive technique. Ramos bullies nearly everyone he wrestles and is still the favorite to win 133 this year. Lofthouse has a legit chance to be a Finalist without any discernible offense. Evans will finish top 6 and could finish as high as 3rd. Moore and Telford have a legit chance to finish top 4. That is SIX guys who not just CAN but SHOULD place TOP6 in the NATION. The jury is still out on Burak due to injury. In addition, you have 2 guys like Clark and Dziewa who are young and have shown they have potential. Kelly is HORRIBLE.

 

Looking at the paragraph above, Iowa has a legit chance at 9 AA's. But 6-7 is more likely. If 6-7 AA's with a couple NCAA championships is a sign that the style they use doesn't work anymore there are only MAYBE 3 programs in the nation that are wrestling a style that works. Your argument is just BIASED SILLINESS.

 

You used a comparision between a 3x defending championship team, who are the definitive favorites to win it again this year, and Iowa. The matches Iowa lost were 4-1 to a 2x finalist using their backup 125, 4-2 against the number 2 undefeated wrestler coming fresh off upsetting a 2x champ, Kelly is the WEAK link, Moore looked like ANY other 165 would against Taylor, Evans lost 4-1 to a defending finalist, Lofthouse looked about as good as ANYONE could against Ruth, and Brooks got pounded but he is a backup 184.

 

So to sum it up, Iowa lost 7 out of 10 matches to:

 

125 A 2x finalist

141 an undefeated Former Cadet world champ

149 WEAK LINK vs WEAK LINK

165 A 3x soon to be 4x finalist

174 A defending Finalist

184 One of the best of ALL TIME

197 A very good wrestler who will probably be a 3x AA

 

The above group would and pretty much HAS made EVERY other team look like their style doesn't work.

 

I will leave you with an analogy that I think fits very well. The NFL has become a PASSING league. However, a team that rushes for 300 yards a game would still win almost every game. But, if you put them up against Peyton Manning and the Broncos the odds are they would still lose. Just because they lost to one of the most high powered offenses of all time DOES NOT mean their style doesn't win.

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When was the last time we have seen an Iowa wrestler do a "barzigar"? Their shots look like dive shots that is when they actually shoot. Evans was much lower in his stance in HS and moved a lot more than he does now.

 

It seems to me Iowa focuses more on handfighting and being heavy on the head and PSU focuses more on being agressive with a variety of leg attacks. I know Iowa loves the high crotch, but do you ever see it? DSJ didn't take a shot in the first period and then doesn't know the score at the end?

 

On the Iowa forum they are saying the whole team is starting to look like Morningstar.

 

I don't think the Brands should go but it seems to me, Iowa needs to take a page out of the PSU book and look to the outside for a fresh perspective. Quentin Wright would be a huge help for the uppers, Nickerson is already in the state and would help the little guys. Metcalf in the middle.

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They said it right, the iowa style, just isn't it. You can't push your way to a win against superior technique. They seem to focus now in Iowa on being tough wrestlers solely versus having tough wrestling skills that's a big difference.

 

To say that Iowa doesn't get elite talent is false, they do, it's just in this day and age lot's of young wrestlers have access to the best technique, clinics, and so on ... so being able to simply out will wrestlers as Iowa who had a lead in talent, access, toughness just doesn't work any longer.

Once again, people mischaracterize the so-called "Iowa Style." This is mostly just a straw man that Iowa critics put up for an easy target.

If anything, this year's Iowa team abandoned any real Iowa attitude at the Penn State meet. They needed more tough offense, not less. This isn't just technique vs. aggression, because the Hawks lacked both against Penn State.

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They said it right, the iowa style, just isn't it. You can't push your way to a win against superior technique. They seem to focus now in Iowa on being tough wrestlers solely versus having tough wrestling skills that's a big difference.

 

To say that Iowa doesn't get elite talent is false, they do, it's just in this day and age lot's of young wrestlers have access to the best technique, clinics, and so on ... so being able to simply out will wrestlers as Iowa who had a lead in talent, access, toughness just doesn't work any longer.

Once again, people mischaracterize the so-called "Iowa Style." This is mostly just a straw man that Iowa critics put up for an easy target.

If anything, this year's Iowa team abandoned any real Iowa attitude at the Penn State meet. They needed more tough offense, not less. This isn't just technique vs. aggression, because the Hawks lacked both against Penn State.

 

I wouldn't say there was not "any real Iowa attitude" but it was a problem. One of the major differences between the present day Iowa teams versus their competition and the old Iowa teams versus their competition is that nearly all of the top teams, and particularly Penn State, now condition as hard as or outcondition Iowa. I'm not saying that Iowa's conditioning is suspect, just that the playing field has leveled in that regard.

 

As far as the match went:

 

125: Gilman wrestled very well and really can't be faulted. He made a couple of mistakes and a two-time NCAA finalist (with the BIGGEST gastank in college wrestling, in my opinion) made him pay for them, but really this was a very solid performance for Iowa.

 

133: Ramos did a great job. Gulibon looks too small for the weight class.

 

141: Dziewa is very tough and definitely capable of beating Retherford. Came down to a big mistake late and Retherford being unflappable.

 

149: Kelly should have won this match. Unforgivable mental lapse with time running out.

 

157: St. John looked good. I'm not sure what the bench was doing.

 

165: Moore wrestled Taylor tough. I didn't think this was a bad performance. Taylor is just the superior wrestler right now and no amount of bullying or conditioning on its own is going to beat him. You have to have a skill set comparable to or better than his to knock him off, and Moore just doesn't right now.

 

174: Evans looked terrible - by far Iowa's worst performance. No offense, poor defense, not getting off the bottom - he looked beat from the start.

 

184: Ruth is just on another level. He's nearly impossible to outwrestle and he never looks tired. I thought Lofthouse looked all right - he's just outclassed.

 

197: Brooks was game but overmatched. I think a healthy Burak probably would give McIntosh all he could handle.

 

Hwt. Telford did enough to win. I'm impressed with Lawson - the match just came down to experience and a mistake.

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maybe I missed something at 125.....but I dont see what people are impressed with by Gilman.

 

Sure, he kept it close with a two time finalist. What I saw was Gilman taking only one shot the entire match.....attempted literally zero offense and simply tried to slow the match down with the underhook and pushing Megaludis out of bounds.

 

Megaludis' condition eventually allowed him to wear Gilman down and win the match. Mega was clearly annoyed by the stalling tactics and was not happy with his performance.

 

Dont get me wrong....not trying to put Gilman down. He did what he needed to do to keep the score close and give himself a chance to win late. I was just not as impressed as others seem to be with his performance.

I do believe he is a talented wrestler and will do very well in the future. With his frame, he looks to be a nice fit for Iowa at 133 next year.

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Frank Rizzo hit the nail on the head. Penn State has been a sleeping giant.

Maybe I am reading too much into this, but I think that Cael initiating the match and accepting the match at Carver Hawk arena was somewhat a calculated and smart move. I think that Cael knew he could win the duel in Iowa with his line-up, especially with Taylor and Ruth bonus potential. Winning that match in Hawkeye Arena will serve as a mental boost for many years, will show future less talented teams that Iowa can be beat, even at home.

Iowa has a strong team, the kids are tough and talented, even Dziewa. He is very good but just lost to a better opponent, same with Dziewa's match with Port. He will be fine. The PSU team is just very loaded this year. They will be strong for many years but this year they are phenomenal.

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maybe I missed something at 125.....but I dont see what people are impressed with by Gilman.

 

 

The fact that he didn't get destroyed, as would the vast majority of starting 125 lbers in the country (not to speak of backups), was impressive enough. Look at what Megaludis did to the poor Ohio State 125 lber the match before. Gilman is tough, but in no way, shape or form should he be expected to beat Megaludis at this point in his career, especially during a fill-in starting performance (the first of his career?). He kept it close for the majority of the match and that is a good performance considering the competition.

 

Kelly and Evans in particular deserve criticism, but Gilman did well against a very tough opponent.

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That's exactly the style Mega has used to get here. He stalled the entire match with Sanders.

 

Didn't Mega have 3 takedowns? Headshuck, you and some of the other Minnesota guys that dwell on that match need to realize Mega is simply better then Sanders. He's well on his way to a better college career (without a redshirt) and he just defeated Sanders at the U.S. Open this past summer as well. Can't wait to see Mega "stall" against your 125 in February.

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Frank Rizzo hit the nail on the head. Penn State has been a sleeping giant.

Maybe I am reading too much into this, but I think that Cael initiating the match and accepting the match at Carver Hawk arena was somewhat a calculated and smart move. I think that Cael knew he could win the duel in Iowa with his line-up, especially with Taylor and Ruth bonus potential. Winning that match in Hawkeye Arena will serve as a mental boost for many years, will show future less talented teams that Iowa can be beat, even at home.

Iowa has a strong team, the kids are tough and talented, even Dziewa. He is very good but just lost to a better opponent, same with Dziewa's match with Port. He will be fine. The PSU team is just very loaded this year. They will be strong for many years but this year they are phenomenal.

 

+1

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Iowa will look more like Iowa State than PSU next year. Brands may end up losing to an improved Illinois team next year. I count losses to Oklahoma State, Ohio State, Minnesota, PSU, and Northwestern as distinct possibilities next year. Iowa may finish as low as sixth in Big Ten and eight nationally behind Cornell and Okey State next year. Not pretty.

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Iowa will look more like Iowa State than PSU next year. Brands may end up losing to an improved Illinois team next year. I count losses to Oklahoma State, Ohio State, Minnesota, PSU, and Northwestern as distinct possibilities next year. Iowa may finish as low as sixth in Big Ten and eight nationally behind Cornell and Okey State next year. Not pretty.
Iowa will look more like Iowa State than PSU next year. Brands may end up losing to an improved Illinois team next year. I count losses to Oklahoma State, Ohio State, Minnesota, PSU, and Northwestern as distinct possibilities next year. Iowa may finish as low as sixth in Big Ten and eight nationally behind Cornell and Okey State next year. Not pretty.

 

 

I think that you are being kind to Iowa next year, In the Big ten they will have trouble with, Penn St, MN, MI, Il & NE. it may possible that they will have a Big Ten Schedule that does not include any of these teams, since t Maryland & Rutgers will join next year. With their continued scheduling of D-III and Junior College teams they will keep their record in the positive territory.

 

I believe that their recruiting by the numbers (only) is catching up with them, who is the last wrestler that they developed in the room. If you recruit by the numbers you have to be brutal with the kids and it will effect your future recruiting, remember Alex from IN, know think of Berge from MN.

 

I do not see a Big ten Champ in their line up next Year!!!! & Sixth would be a good finish!!!

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Iowa will look more like Iowa State than PSU next year. Brands may end up losing to an improved Illinois team next year. I count losses to Oklahoma State, Ohio State, Minnesota, PSU, and Northwestern as distinct possibilities next year. Iowa may finish as low as sixth in Big Ten and eight nationally behind Cornell and Okey State next year. Not pretty.

 

................ are you referring to "NEXT YEAR"? .....

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After St. John leaves, Iowa is sunk. WIN has next year' s recruiting class ranked 13th! The Iowa dynasty is Dead! PSU, Ohio State, Minny, Okey State, and Northwestern all will have 2-4 NCAA finalists on their rosters! Iowa has nothing now that Bobby Telford looks hobbled after his knee surgery. The only answer is to fire Brands ASAP and hire a Cael Sanderson miracle worker.

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That's exactly the style Mega has used to get here. He stalled the entire match with Sanders.

Yes he did headshuck and he did in every match he had with Matt Mcdonough and can't see where Penn .state fans think he is such a offensive force. Sure when he has a weak opponent he scores but when the opponent is equal or better he does just what Gillman was doing tying up the arms and using underhooks waiting for a mistake.

Heck meg could not even beat matt last year and matt only hand one arm..

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who is the last wrestler that they developed in the room. If you recruit by the numbers you have to be brutal with the kids and it will effect your future recruiting, remember Alex from IN, know think of Berge from MN.

posted by long arms.

Brands both Tom and Terry can coach as well as anyone, yes even as good as the savior at Penn State.

Here is guys that they developed and if you go my rankings coming in would say a dam good job.

125.McDoungh, 3AA,2national champ and one runner up. never had hs rankings like Meg,Gibbion,Ruetheford

133. D. Dennis 2aa and one runner up just fell asleep in last seconds with Ness should have been champ.

157..St John 3AA,2nd once, 1st once and has this year to go ..hs ranking never as high as the Altons,

 

With what he has now, would say Clark,Gillman,Jevea, Burak, Brooks, Stoll,Berge will be future AA and maybe some of them champs.

Yes Cale gets better recurits because he is in Penn but I'm sick of hearing how much a better coach he is that is bs..He left Iowa State cause he knew he was never going to beat Iowa there, or Minnesota or Okl State.

Now really most college coaches if given the number one ranking kid in a weight class like Cale can do now cause Penn has the best hs wrestling wtf he should win right..

Howevere what happen this year with Haines and Chance M. to great penn state wrestlers who wanted and commited to him , at the last minute something happen and they HAD TO decommit . We don't know the whole story but if Mr savior keeps doing stuff like this to his own state studs just give it time and it will come to bite him in the rear.

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That's exactly the style Mega has used to get here. He stalled the entire match with Sanders.

Yes he did headshuck and he did in every match he had with Matt Mcdonough and can't see where Penn .state fans think he is such a offensive force. Sure when he has a weak opponent he scores but when the opponent is equal or better he does just what Gillman was doing tying up the arms and using underhooks waiting for a mistake.

Heck meg could not even beat matt last year and matt only hand one arm..

 

 

McDonough used two arms in every match that I saw him wrestle last year. Why so many insist on McDonough having "one arm" last year I don't know. McDonough has rejected the notion that he was wrestling "one armed" last year. No good reason to go beyond his own statements.

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