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SalvatoreG

Iowa... Honest question

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superold: what if McD and Brands said that McD's poor performance was due to a voodoo hex that was put on him prior to the NCAA's? would you "ignore it", take it 100% true face value or maybe apply context and reasoning to interpret it in a less than literal manner?

 

A voodoo hex? Let's be serious.

 

 

My position does apply context and reasoning. Unlike many others, my position also takes into consideration the plain intended meaning of their words.

 

so would you leave open the possibility that brands and McD were saying that the injury wasn't a factor when it actually may have been, or are you 100% certain that the Brands McD position should be taken completely literally?

 

my position is that we'll never know exactly how much the injury to McD affected his performance, but i lean toward believing it affected McD more than he or brands were willing to state on record. im also willing to believe that it actually did had zero affect on his wrestling, however, since none of us can read their minds we'll have to settle for probability and educated guesses, which is why i am avoided taking an absolute stance one way or another.

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so would you leave open the possibility that brands and McD were saying that the injury wasn't a factor when it actually may have been, or are you 100% certain that the Brands McD position should be taken completely literally?

 

I'm certain that we should take them literally, but that's because I believe we should always try to take a person at their word. As far as 100% certainty, you can never technically say something with that type of certainty. I'm not 100% certain that Brands is really coaching Iowa. It could be an alien who with special morphing ability.

 

 

my position is that we'll never know exactly how much the injury to McD affected his performance, but i lean toward believing it affected McD more than he or brands were willing to state on record. im also willing to believe that it actually did had zero affect on his wrestling, however, since none of us can read their minds we'll have to settle for probability and educated guesses, which is why i am avoided taking an absolute stance one way or another.

 

Okay then. But you're forgetting that you can also accept the plain meaning of their words until you are given strong reasons to reject them. Personally, I don't feel that I've been given reason to question them.

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Okay then. But you're forgetting that you can also accept the plain meaning of their words until you are given strong reasons to reject them. Personally, I don't feel that I've been given reason to question them.

 

im obviously not forgetting that. i stated very clearly that i think its is quite possible that McD and brands are being 100% truthful. i also think possible that because "excuses" are anathema to iowa wrestling, both the wrestlers and the coaches are not going to provide any, even if the wrestler is indeed injured to the point where he has to have surgery as soon as the season is over.

 

the only unreasonable stance to take is to be 100% certain that you know exactly how much McD's injury affected him, regardless of what McD or Brands says in a press interview.

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Is it me or does Iowa not shoot anymore ? I'm not trolling and I don't watch a ton of college wrestling so forgive me but the number of legitimate shots they take these days is a major area of concern if I

Tom Brands. When they do shoot, it's straight on with no angles. It's mostly just pushing these days and an occasional straight forward dive in at the legs. Psu was much more technically sound last night.

Are you fairly new to wrestling, how long have you been watching Iowa? This has been there style for a very long, long time. Sure they've had individuals with great technique & quick shots, but over all its hand fight, pound on the head, push out of bounds, work for stalling calls, wait for a mistake, then score, more of the same & dominate with that style. Its up to the opponents to figure out how to break thru that style/approach.

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im obviously not forgetting that. i stated very clearly that i think its is quite possible that McD and brands are being 100% truthful.

 

Isn't it good practice to take people at their word unless they give you a strong reason to do otherwise?

 

i also think possible that because "excuses" are anathema to iowa wrestling, both the wrestlers and the coaches are not going to provide any, even if the wrestler is indeed injured to the point where he has to have surgery as soon as the season is over.

 

How do you know that Brands wouldn't mention if a wrester was injured? How do you know that Brands views injuries as an excuse? Where did he say this?

 

the only unreasonable stance to take is to be 100% certain that you know exactly how much McD's injury affected him, regardless of what McD or Brands says in a press interview.

 

 

I disagree. If Brands or McDonough clearly state how much an injury is affecting them, I have no good reason to go beyond their words. They haven't given me a reason to doubt their words.

 

Why is 100% certainty the standard to you? 100% certainty is a standard that's not even used in the hard sciences, and even many religions. Fine, technically, you can't be 100% certain about anything.

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im obviously not forgetting that. i stated very clearly that i think its is quite possible that McD and brands are being 100% truthful.

 

Isn't it good practice to take people at their word unless they give you a strong reason to do otherwise?

 

i also think possible that because "excuses" are anathema to iowa wrestling, both the wrestlers and the coaches are not going to provide any, even if the wrestler is indeed injured to the point where he has to have surgery as soon as the season is over.

 

How do you know that Brands wouldn't mention if a wrester was injured? How do you know that Brands views injuries as an excuse? Where did he say this?

 

the only unreasonable stance to take is to be 100% certain that you know exactly how much McD's injury affected him, regardless of what McD or Brands says in a press interview.

 

 

I disagree. If Brands or McDonough clearly state how much an injury is affecting them, I have no good reason to go beyond their words. They haven't given me a reason to doubt their words.

 

Why is 100% certainty the standard to you? 100% certainty is a standard that's not even used in the hard sciences, and even many religions. Fine, technically, you can't be 100% certain about anything.

 

nevermind, this is pointless. enjoy your weekend.

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I think McDonough's most revealing comments about his senior year performance appear in the June, 2013 issue of Hawk Talk - especially since that interview appeared after his NCAA career was finished (and after he had had some time for reflection.) The May issue of Hawk Talk previewed that interview as follows:

 

McDonough didn't speak specifically during the season about factors that were holding him back in his final year...until now. In a feature in the next issue of Hawk Talk Monthly (arriving to in-boxes later this week), McDonough talks about the hardships of making weight, a shoulder and neck injury that required postseason surgery, and his future plans.

 

That preview also quoted McDonough as saying:

 

"I was wrestling pretty well until that last match, but I felt pretty good," McDonough said. "You have to feel you're wrestling your best at Big Tens and nationals. I didn't feel I was wrestling bad there, it is just some things I didn't let leave my mind; I kept in the back of my mind. You have to throw those negative thoughts and those worries about how healthy you are, you have to leave those emotions out."

 

In short, upon reflection, its apparent that McDonough felt his performance was due to a number of factors; the weight cut, the injury, and his emotions. If one couples those factors with the improvement of Delgado and some of the other 125-pounders, I believe its readily apparent why McDonough wasn't able to repeat as NCAA champ in 2013.

 

Here's some links to the referenced articles (all from a pro-Hawkeye source, BTW):

 

http://www.hawkeyesports.com/sports/m-wrestl/spec-rel/052913aab.html

 

http://catalog.e-digitaleditions.com/i/133852

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nevermind, this is pointless. enjoy your weekend.

 

With all due respect, our exchange has been pointless because you aren't making any good points. You've done little more then state the obvious. You frame questions in such a way that any scientist would be very hesitant to answer them. You've also made a few claims that you apparently aren't willing to back up. If you want to have a meaningful discussion in the future on this topic, please let me know.

 

Take Care.

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You heard it here first, folks: injuries play ZERO role in an athlete's ability to compete and utilize their own skills.

 

If you were referring to my posts, I never said that.

 

You certainly fooled me then. What if it's actually true that the injury did hamper his ability to get out from bottom, defend against shots, and to finish his own shots?

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You heard it here first, folks: injuries play ZERO role in an athlete's ability to compete and utilize their own skills.

 

If you were referring to my posts, I never said that.

 

You certainly fooled me then. What if it's actually true that the injury did hamper his ability to get out from bottom, defend against shots, and to finish his own shots?

 

If it's actually true, then it's actually true. I don't believe this has much to do with my position. My position takes McDonough's physical condition into account. I disagree that McDonough's failures can simply be chalked up to whatever is wrong with his arm. McDonough had plenty left to perform much better than he did at ncaas and Big 10s.

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nevermind, this is pointless. enjoy your weekend.

 

With all due respect, our exchange has been pointless because you aren't making any good points. You've done little more then state the obvious. You frame questions in such a way that any scientist would be very hesitant to answer them. You've also made a few claims that you apparently aren't willing to back up. If you want to have a meaningful discussion in the future on this topic, please let me know.

 

Take Care.

 

with all due respect, i dont think you know what a scientist is or does. next time i see one, though, i'll ask him or her how i could have done a better job in my posts, then i'll let you know when i'm ready to have a meaningful discussion. shan't be long i suspect, im sure i'll bump into one over the weekend. till then!

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nevermind, this is pointless. enjoy your weekend.

 

With all due respect, our exchange has been pointless because you aren't making any good points. You've done little more then state the obvious. You frame questions in such a way that any scientist would be very hesitant to answer them. You've also made a few claims that you apparently aren't willing to back up. If you want to have a meaningful discussion in the future on this topic, please let me know.

 

Take Care.

 

with all due respect, i dont think you know what a scientist is or does. next time i see one, though, i'll ask him or her how i could have done a better job in my posts, then i'll let you know when i'm ready to have a meaningful discussion. shan't be long i suspect, im sure i'll bump into one over the weekend. till then!

 

 

Of course I do. In case you didn't know that good scientist are usually, if not always very hesitant to proclaim a fact or theory is 100% true. This goes for some of the greats, i.e. Stephen Hawking. Have you read any of his books? Actually, that doesn't really matter on this thread.

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Iowa will finish above Northwestern at the NCAAs next year.

 

Old marine,no way does Iowa beat Northwestern next year! Trirtsis and McMullan will both be number one ranked! McMullan's only losses in the NCAA Tourney were to champ Nelson. Then you have probable AA's in Munster,Polizzi,Harger,and I think the true frosh Bryce Brill. (Brill is top five overall recruit) Then you have top 16 kids like Mitch Sliga who was a Fargo Champ last year and Jacob Schmidt who is redshirting this year and beat Dom Malone whomis ranked top 20! The 25lber NU has coming in is a Fargo champ ,Steven Micic, and the top ranked kid at 25 right now on intermat. 41 you have Pat Greco who placed sixth at Big Tens as a sophomore, Iowa will not compete with this caliber of a team,nor can it beat Ohio State,Minny,or PSU at nationals. Iowa does not have any top four guys IMHO. Oh yea,Johnny Sebastian is a top rated kid and may contribute.

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Iowa will finish above Northwestern at the NCAAs next year.
Old marine,no way does Iowa beat Northwestern next year!

 

Those sound like some words that could very well be ripe for eating come next year.

 

I'm no Iowa fan (in fact, as far as the Big 10 goes, Northwestern is my team I root for), but I wouldn't place too many bets on your hunches.

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Joe - I'm no fan of Iowa (I'm a Penn State alum). But I don't see the Cats matching up with Iowa as well as you do:

 

125 Gilman Iowa > Micic

133 Clark Iowa > Malone/Sliga

141 Dziewa Iowa > Greco

149 Tsirtis NU > Iowa 149

157 NU (Brill?)

165 Moore Iowa > Harger

174 Evans Iowa > Munster

184 Brooks Iowa vs ?

197 Burak Iowa > Polizzi

285 McMullen NU > Telford (they are 1-1 (2012) with each other and anything can happen at Heayweight)

 

Even giving NU 157 and 184, Iowa could still pull 6 of those matches. As for true freshman, NU wasn't able to get Jason Welch on the podium and he was better coming out of high school than (the very talented) Brill and any other NU frosh except Tsirtsis.

 

Iowa is down, but they aren't (and won't be) as bad as you're suggesting (although I wouldn't mind seeing it if your writing comes to fruition).

 

Regarding the rankings Tsirtsis and McMullen may have next year, they don't mean anything (ask Steiber, Maple, Ramos, Sakaguchi, Meeks, Schiller, etc).

 

BTW - There are a lot of Fargo champs that do not replicate their success at the next level.

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Ok, no sense debating anymore.

I watched him for all 4 years, and the season was not even half over and me and a few other guys noticed Matt was not the same.. Many on the HR board said that he was cutting to much weight.

My friends and me stayed with what we saw. When season over he admitted he had the injury and if you watched him like you say you did his last year he was able to use his length and pull guys in like he had his 3 prior years. He no strength in his left arm.

Don't know how many matches yyou wrestled in hs or college but if you don't think a injury that needs surgey and is in the shoulder does not make and difference how you perform than man you must be Clark Kent.

 

I watched McDonough for all 4 years too. For the record, I do believe he was bothered by his arm/shoulder. No doubt. I even know what you're talking about when you mentioned his ability to be able to pull guys in after he got extended due to his length. I even pointed that out on earlier threads.

 

What I deny, along with McDonough himself, is that all of his failures can simply be chalked up to his physical condition when that's clearly not the case. McDonough had enough in him to make it to the finals last year. McDonough was able to secure a high seed and beat both Megaludis and Garret in the regular season. I'm sure he wasn't feeling 100% there either, but he was still capable of winning with what he had left. And he had a lot left.

 

I like McDonouh a lot. He's a very tough wrestler. I will not make excuses for his poor wrestling though. And that's all they would be, excuses. McDonough getting ridden out an entire period by Garret had everything to do with his less than championship level wrestling from bottom. He was capable of wrestling better. And what about being taken down mere seconds into the sudden victory OT? That was nothing but poor defense. The replay is online. Are you telling me his shoulder wouldn't allow him to put up a proper defense? In his matches with Delgado, are you telling me that it was only his shoulder that was the difference and everything else was fine? He repeatedly walked into Delgado's shots last year. To say otherwise is nothing but an excuse. McDonough would say the same.

 

Superold is totally right about this point. The people attacking him in this thread are doing so only by tearing down straw men -- i.e. pretending he said something that he actually didn't. Read what he actually wrote before putting words in his mouth.

 

Here's the short version, for the lazy. Is it fair to say McD's injury impacted him at NCAAs? Sure it is. McD and Brands wouldn't admit it, but watching him wrestle over the course of the year and at NCAAs, it did seem like injury played a role. Is it fair to say that McD going DNP at NCAAs is due only to the injury? No, that's an unwarranted leap that ignores too much other evidence that cuts the other way.

 

Its really astonishing to me now many history revisionists are out there, but I guess its mostly just McD/Brands/Iowa fans who are more interested in protecting their flock than acknowledging the truth.

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It's also interesting how some intimate that McDonough's injury was the only thing impacting his senior year performance. In the June, 2013 Hawk Talk I referenced previously, he explicitly admitted that the weight cut took its toll on him. He even said (in discussing his future plans); "Maybe its good to get bigger and let your body feel strong rather than try to shrink it to be the bigger guy in the weight class."

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Joe - I'm no fan of Iowa (I'm a Penn State alum). But I don't see the Cats matching up with Iowa as well as you do:

 

125 Gilman Iowa > Micic

133 Clark Iowa > Malone/Sliga

141 Dziewa Iowa > Greco

149 Tsirtis NU > Iowa 149

157 NU (Brill?)

165 Moore Iowa > Harger

174 Evans Iowa > Munster

184 Brooks Iowa vs ?

197 Burak Iowa > Polizzi

285 McMullen NU > Telford (they are 1-1 (2012) with each other and anything can happen at Heayweight)

 

Even giving NU 157 and 184, Iowa could still pull 6 of those matches. As for true freshman, NU wasn't able to get Jason Welch on the podium and he was better coming out of high school than (the very talented) Brill and any other NU frosh except Tsirtsis.

 

Iowa is down, but they aren't (and won't be) as bad as you're suggesting (although I wouldn't mind seeing it if your writing comes to fruition).

 

Regarding the rankings Tsirtsis and McMullen may have next year, they don't mean anything (ask Steiber, Maple, Ramos, Sakaguchi, Meeks, Schiller, etc).

 

BTW - There are a lot of Fargo champs that do not replicate their success at the next level.

 

Sliga will be at 84! I doubt that Telford and Brooks will be wrestling by February of next year! Telford has big time knee problems and Burak has a bad back! Gilman has not looked great,but he is solid. In a dual,Iowa may hang around NU,but not at Nationals! What has Clark done this year? I think Jameson Oyster will start soon for NU at 41! He is improving and just shut out a tough Nick Lawrence to win a tourney.

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"Maybe its good to get bigger and let your body feel strong rather than try to shrink it to be the bigger guy in the weight class."

 

During that year, I wasn't privy to the Shoulder Issue 100%, yet I did question his weight cut. There had been a previous article ( in the fall of his Sr. season) that went into great detail about the "staff" of people who helped, and monitored his cut. A physician, nutritionist, coaches, and trainers. It was a massive cut.

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I think McDonough's most revealing comments about his senior year performance appear in the June, 2013 issue of Hawk Talk - especially since that interview appeared after his NCAA career was finished (and after he had had some time for reflection.) The May issue of Hawk Talk previewed that interview as follows:

 

McDonough didn't speak specifically during the season about factors that were holding him back in his final year...until now. In a feature in the next issue of Hawk Talk Monthly (arriving to in-boxes later this week), McDonough talks about the hardships of making weight, a shoulder and neck injury that required postseason surgery, and his future plans.

 

That preview also quoted McDonough as saying:

 

"I was wrestling pretty well until that last match, but I felt pretty good," McDonough said. "You have to feel you're wrestling your best at Big Tens and nationals. I didn't feel I was wrestling bad there, it is just some things I didn't let leave my mind; I kept in the back of my mind. You have to throw those negative thoughts and those worries about how healthy you are, you have to leave those emotions out."

 

In short, upon reflection, its apparent that McDonough felt his performance was due to a number of factors; the weight cut, the injury, and his emotions. If one couples those factors with the improvement of Delgado and some of the other 125-pounders, I believe its readily apparent why McDonough wasn't able to repeat as NCAA champ in 2013.

 

Here's some links to the referenced articles (all from a pro-Hawkeye source, BTW):

 

http://www.hawkeyesports.com/sports/m-wrestl/spec-rel/052913aab.html

 

http://catalog.e-digitaleditions.com/i/133852

 

Thanks for posting. McDonough was a terrific college wrestler, and I wish him the best in the future as a freestyler.

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Check out the Iowa Hawkeye Wrestling Forum and see the deep concern many Hawk fans have for the program. Some fans are shockingly optimistic while others sense problems. While the season is far from over, I just do not see the NCAA points needed for Iowa to win. When they lose men at 133, 157 and 184 after this year, things will continue to slide downward. I predicted this in the Fall of 2010.

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It's also interesting how some intimate that McDonough's injury was the only thing impacting his senior year performance. In the June, 2013 Hawk Talk I referenced previously, he explicitly admitted that the weight cut took its toll on him. He even said (in discussing his future plans); "Maybe its good to get bigger and let your body feel strong rather than try to shrink it to be the bigger guy in the weight class."

 

This McDonough crap is so transparent. It's beyond argument that a shoulder injury can make a great wrestler look very average - see Nickerson, Q. Wright, the Altons, on and on. But apparently the Iowa bashers can't cut McDonough any slack. His injury, which required surgery, simply played a secondary role to whatever the know-it-alls want to throw out there.

 

Why the difference in the way McD is treated as oppossed to Nickerson for example?

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It's also interesting how some intimate that McDonough's injury was the only thing impacting his senior year performance. In the June, 2013 Hawk Talk I referenced previously, he explicitly admitted that the weight cut took its toll on him. He even said (in discussing his future plans); "Maybe its good to get bigger and let your body feel strong rather than try to shrink it to be the bigger guy in the weight class."

 

This McDonough crap is so transparent. It's beyond argument that a shoulder injury can make a great wrestler look very average - see Nickerson, Q. Wright, the Altons, on and on. But apparently the Iowa bashers can't cut McDonough any slack. His injury, which required surgery, simply played a secondary role to whatever the know-it-alls want to throw out there.

 

Why the difference in the way McD is treated as oppossed to Nickerson for example?

 

I agree that this is just Iowa hate, but Nickerson took a lot of crap on these boards, too. And Nickerson's injury was patent and plagued him for a significant portion of his career - and he won the NCAA's with a shoulder that dislocated during his championship match. Nickerson might be the worst wrestler you could point to in order to convince people to cut McD some slack.

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