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SalvatoreG

Iowa... Honest question

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I agree about McD. If no injury, at least 3rd place, most likely another 1st. A very bad break.

 

McD was well enough to take top 3 with his shoulder/arm problems this year. And I don't believe you're "most likely" can be justified. I don't see why McDonough would "most likely" beat Delgado after what we saw last year. McDonough walked right into Delgado's shots.

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This McDonough crap is so transparent. It's beyond argument that a shoulder injury can make a great wrestler look very average - see Nickerson, Q. Wright, the Altons, on and on. But apparently the Iowa bashers can't cut McDonough any slack. His injury, which required surgery, simply played a secondary role to whatever the know-it-alls want to throw out there.

 

Why the difference in the way McD is treated as oppossed to Nickerson for example?

 

Who here denied that a shoulder injury can make a great wrestler look average? Who here is treating McDonough differently from Nickerson? Did anyone on this thread use two different standards for McDonough and Nickerson? I didn't see that.

 

I hope you aren't classifying my position as "Iowa bashing". Just for the record, it isn't, and I would say my position does far more justice to what actually transpired last year. Much more than those who want to chalk up all of McDounough's struggles last year to injury, even though McDonough himself rejects that nonsense.

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It's also interesting how some intimate that McDonough's injury was the only thing impacting his senior year performance. In the June, 2013 Hawk Talk I referenced previously, he explicitly admitted that the weight cut took its toll on him. He even said (in discussing his future plans); "Maybe its good to get bigger and let your body feel strong rather than try to shrink it to be the bigger guy in the weight class."

 

This McDonough crap is so transparent. It's beyond argument that a shoulder injury can make a great wrestler look very average - see Nickerson, Q. Wright, the Altons, on and on. But apparently the Iowa bashers can't cut McDonough any slack. His injury, which required surgery, simply played a secondary role to whatever the know-it-alls want to throw out there.

 

Why the difference in the way McD is treated as oppossed to Nickerson for example?

 

I agree that this is just Iowa hate, but Nickerson took a lot of crap on these boards, too. And Nickerson's injury was patent and plagued him for a significant portion of his career - and he won the NCAA's with a shoulder that dislocated during his championship match. Nickerson might be the worst wrestler you could point to in order to convince people to cut McD some slack.

 

Yes but the KEY difference between McDonough and Nickerson was that McDonough wasn't remotely the technical wrestler that Nickerson was. Nickerson was considerably more able to stay in position and win with an injured shoulder. McDonough dominated with his LENGTH and STRENGTH. He was one of the VERY few dominant DI guys who didn't have to set up a shot to finish it. He was able to get to the legs without much or any type of set up. He was then able to pull the legs in on ANYONE. He was also able to control everyone on top the same way. The weight cut definitely could have been a factor but his shoulder eliminated his biggest strength and his weaknesses inevitably became a bigger factor.

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Yes but the KEY difference between McDonough and Nickerson was that McDonough wasn't remotely the technical wrestler that Nickerson was. Nickerson was considerably more able to stay in position and win with an injured shoulder. McDonough dominated with his LENGTH and STRENGTH. He was one of the VERY few dominant DI guys who didn't have to set up a shot to finish it. He was able to get to the legs without much or any type of set up. He was then able to pull the legs in on ANYONE. He was also able to control everyone on top the same way. The weight cut definitely could have been a factor but his shoulder eliminated his biggest strength and his weaknesses inevitably became a bigger factor.

 

Poor wrestling down the stretch also played a huge role in why McD didn't perform well last year at the ncaas. That factor can't be denied.

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Nothing will get ya like "poor wrestling" down the stretch, just ask Darrion Caldwell, Dustin Schlatter and Andrew Howe.

 

Matt McDonough agrees. It's a fact. I don't get the sarcasm.

 

I'd love to hear how McDonough's wrestling in the 3rd period and OT against Garret wasn't poor. I guess you believe McDonough wrestled as well as he possibly could have?

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Nothing will get ya like "poor wrestling" down the stretch, just ask Darrion Caldwell, Dustin Schlatter and Andrew Howe.

 

Matt McDonough agrees. It's a fact. I don't get the sarcasm.

 

I'd love to hear how McDonough's wrestling in the 3rd period and OT against Garret wasn't poor. I guess you believe McDonough wrestled as well as he possibly could?

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Nothing will get ya like "poor wrestling" down the stretch, just ask Darrion Caldwell, Dustin Schlatter and Andrew Howe.

 

Matt McDonough agrees. It's a fact. I don't get the sarcasm.

 

I'd love to hear how McDonough's wrestling in the 3rd period and OT against Garret wasn't poor. I guess you believe McDonough wrestled as well as he possibly could have?

 

The fact that McDonough And Brands refuse to make excuses hardly ends the matter. Remember Caldwell and Schlatter also did not make excuses, but chalk that up to good sportmanship and class. The truth is fairly obvious to those without an agenda. You see what you want to see.

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Check out the Iowa Hawkeye Wrestling Forum and see the deep concern many Hawk fans have for the program. Some fans are shockingly optimistic while others sense problems. While the season is far from over, I just do not see the NCAA points needed for Iowa to win. When they lose men at 133, 157 and 184 after this year, things will continue to slide downward. I predicted this in the Fall of 2010.

 

You are right Donnie, the Iowa board is going bananas. They know that that the Iowa dynasty is doomed with Brands at the helm.Why? They have no blue chipper studs that are coming in. Why do you think Little Trirtsis did not want to go there? They burned his brother Alex's shirt as a frosh and hurt his career. It is no fun in Iowa to wrestle. Cael, Pariano, Ohio State,Okey State,and Minny have much more dynamic staffs and all except for Minnesota are Regional Training Centers. Iowa may finish seventh in the Big a Ten next year if Telford is not at full strength. Burak has a major injury!

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The fact that McDonough And Brands refuse to make excuses hardly ends the matter. Remember Caldwell and Schlatter also did not make excuses, but chalk that up to good sportmanship and class. The truth is fairly obvious to those without an agenda. You see what you want to see.

 

You conveniently ignore the questions that I ask you. If you answered them honestly, you would realize that McD did display poor wrestling last year at ncaas. I don't see why that's hard to admit. And you, or anyone else for that matter, has not proven that Brands or McDonough wouldn't admit if an injury was the primary reason for a wrestler's failures. What's funny is you, and others, want to deny the clear statements made by McD and Brands, and then turn and point the finger at others as having an agenda? You won't even consider, for a second, that McDonough was simply being honest. Who's the one with an agenda now? Especially considering that you won't answer any questions that will reveal a weakness in your position. A position that not only has no foundation, but makes Brands/McD out to be a liar. A position that denies that obvious.

 

I don't "see what I want to see", I see reality. You deny reality and make excuses. You even call your excuses facts! And the truth is obvious, it's the very thing that McD and myself have been saying all along.

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It's rather absurd to claim "Iowa bashing" when one is just quoting McDonough himself on the reasons for his decline in performance. For whatever reasons, some fans wish to pretend that the only factor impacting his performance was his injury. However, he explicitly acknowledged two other factors, including the toll that the weight cut took on him. Personally, I respect him for his honesty in setting the record straight.

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It's rather absurd to claim "Iowa bashing" when one is just quoting McDonough himself on the reasons for his decline in performance. For whatever reasons, some fans wish to pretend that the only factor impacting his performance was his injury. However, he explicitly acknowledged two other factors, including the toll that the weight cut took on him. Personally, I respect him for his honesty in setting the record straight.

 

I agree. It's completely ridiculous to accuse anyone of "bashing" who believes that other factors were at play other than the injury. Some of us like Iowa and have spent thousands of dollars on their program over the years.

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The fact that McDonough And Brands refuse to make excuses hardly ends the matter. Remember Caldwell and Schlatter also did not make excuses, but chalk that up to good sportmanship and class. The truth is fairly obvious to those without an agenda. You see what you want to see.

 

You conveniently ignore the questions that I ask you. If you answered them honestly, you would realize that McD did display poor wrestling last year at ncaas. I don't see why that's hard to admit. And you, or anyone else for that matter, has not proven that Brands or McDonough wouldn't admit if an injury was the primary reason for a wrestler's failures. What's funny is you, and others, want to deny the clear statements made by McD and Brands, and then turn and point the finger at others as having an agenda? You won't even consider, for a second, that McDonough was simply being honest. Who's the one with an agenda now? Especially considering that you won't answer any questions that will reveal a weakness in your position. A position that not only has no foundation, but makes Brands/McD out to be a liar. A position that denies that obvious.

 

I don't "see what I want to see", I see reality. You deny reality and make excuses. You even call your excuses facts! And the truth is obvious, it's the very thing that McD and myself have been saying all along.

 

"And the truth is obvious, it's the very thing that McD and myself have been saying all along." Read your own post from last spring. Please explain how you are not contradicting yourself. [For the record, I fully expect you to dance around this somehow.]

 

Re: McDonough followup

by superold » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:21 am

rossel3 wrote:According to some "in the know" posters, Matt McD had surgery last week on his shoulder. Don't know anymore than that.

 

I always suspected there was something wrong, not just weight cutting, "everyone else catching up," etc.

 

As we've seen before, shoulder injuries can derail a wrestling dream. Hopefully Matt will have a good result.

 

 

True. A shoulder injury is probably the worst a wrestler can have. I was never convinced there wasn't something more than weight cutting either. If you look at McDonough's ealier matches, you see him shoot a single leg where he's way extended for a few seconds(head down, while maintaining a strong grip) and eventually explode up with a finish. He didn't seem to have that in his repertoire this year. That seems consistent with a shoulder injury to me!

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". Written two weeks after the McDonough surgery article and quotes your hiding behind. Please explain how you are not contradicting yourself. [For the record, I fully expect you to dance around this somehow.]

 

No, not all. I stand by those comments. Did you not read my earlier posts on this very thread? This is from page 3 of this very thread:

 

 

 

 

I watched McDonough for all 4 years too. For the record, I do believe he was bothered by his arm/shoulder. No doubt. I even know what you're talking about when you mentioned his ability to be able to pull guys in after he got extended due to his length. I even pointed that out on earlier threads. What I deny, along with McDonough himself, is that all of his failures can simply be chalked up to his physical condition when that's clearly not the case. McDonough had enough in him to make it to the finals last year. McDonough was able to secure a high seed and beat both Megaludis and Garret in the regular season. I'm sure he wasn't feeling 100% there either, but he was still capable of winning with what he had left. And he had a lot left.

 

I like McDonouh a lot. He's a very tough wrestler. I will not make excuses for his poor wrestling though. And that's all they would be, excuses. McDonough getting ridden out an entire period by Garret had everything to do with his less than championship level wrestling from bottom. He was capable of wrestling better. And what about being taken down mere seconds into the sudden victory OT? That was nothing but poor defense. The replay is online. Are you telling me his shoulder wouldn't allow him to put up a proper defense? In his matches with Delgado, are you telling me that it was only his shoulder that was the difference and everything else was fine? He repeatedly walked into Delgado's shots last year. To say otherwise is nothing but an excuse. McDonough would say the same.

 

 

 

As you can see that's completely consistent with my overall position, it's not contradictory in the least.

No dancing necessary. You should read all my posts here before you attempt to address my position and then accuse me of having an agenda.

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This McDonough crap is so transparent. It's beyond argument that a shoulder injury can make a great wrestler look very average - see Nickerson, Q. Wright, the Altons, on and on. But apparently the Iowa bashers can't cut McDonough any slack. His injury, which required surgery, simply played a secondary role to whatever the know-it-alls want to throw out there.

 

Why the difference in the way McD is treated as oppossed to Nickerson for example?

 

 

 

I agree that this is just Iowa hate, but Nickerson took a lot of crap on these boards, too. And Nickerson's injury was patent and plagued him for a significant portion of his career - and he won the NCAA's with a shoulder that dislocated during his championship match. Nickerson might be the worst wrestler you could point to in order to convince people to cut McD some slack.

 

Yes but the KEY difference between McDonough and Nickerson was that McDonough wasn't remotely the technical wrestler that Nickerson was. Nickerson was considerably more able to stay in position and win with an injured shoulder. McDonough dominated with his LENGTH and STRENGTH. He was one of the VERY few dominant DI guys who didn't have to set up a shot to finish it. He was able to get to the legs without much or any type of set up. He was then able to pull the legs in on ANYONE. He was also able to control everyone on top the same way. The weight cut definitely could have been a factor but his shoulder eliminated his biggest strength and his weaknesses inevitably became a bigger factor.

 

 

MSU158, I haven't read your other posts on this thread so I'm not exactly sure where you stand on this, but this is precisely the reason I think referencing Nickerson in defense of McD just isn't very persuasive. Basically you're saying that without a healthy shoulder McD didn't have the skillset to win or even place, whereas Nickerson clearly did. Some people might characterize taking shots without setups and not being able to find a way to control on top as "poor wrestling." I don't know. I like McD and I think it's silly to dismiss the injury as some seem to do. I also think his weight was a problem, although that's just speculation. My only point is that if someone is trying to defend McD's failure to place based on the injury, then referencing Nickerson is possibly the worst evidence one could raise.

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Check out the Iowa Hawkeye Wrestling Forum and see the deep concern many Hawk fans have for the program. Some fans are shockingly optimistic while others sense problems. While the season is far from over, I just do not see the NCAA points needed for Iowa to win. When they lose men at 133, 157 and 184 after this year, things will continue to slide downward. I predicted this in the Fall of 2010.

 

You are right Donnie, the Iowa board is going bananas. They know that that the Iowa dynasty is doomed with Brands at the helm.Why? They have no blue chipper studs that are coming in. Why do you think Little Trirtsis did not want to go there? They burned his brother Alex's shirt as a frosh and hurt his career. It is no fun in Iowa to wrestle. Cael, Pariano, Ohio State,Okey State,and Minny have much more dynamic staffs and all except for Minnesota are Regional Training Centers. Iowa may finish seventh in the Big a Ten next year if Telford is not at full strength. Burak has a major injury!

Won't happen. You been smokin' more than BBQ if you think this. We get that you hate the Hawks and want them to do fail, but we aren't goin' away.

Sanderson, and Smith ARE going to have good squads year to year like Iowa, but tOSU and your N'western Purplecats have yet to prove anything substantial and long-lasting. The only thing "dynamic" about their staffs is that they will change when other people take over those jobs.

If there was an Iowa Dynasty, it was over when Gable left. I wish little T-shirt a great career with your P'cats, but his older brother had every opportunity to show what he could do at Iowa.

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Grapple fan, look at the great recruiting class that Ohio State just pull in? Three top ten kids! They also have three studs red shirting in Bo Jordan, Nate Thomosello,and Hunter Steiber. I have the Buckeyes winning at 25.41,49,33,65,57, and 84! Iowa is lagging behind Okey State also in recruiting! Check out inter mats rankings or flowrestlingss rankings!

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Mr. Nickerson didn't or wouldn't throw a medal in the trash...Enough said on that subject...Iowa had the #1 recruiting class 10 and 12...Enough on that subject...They wrestled at home and lost!!!

 

P.S. The PSU "Train"!!!

 

P.P.S.

 

This McDonough crap is so transparent. It's beyond argument that a shoulder injury can make a great wrestler look very average - see Nickerson, Q. Wright, the Altons, on and on. But apparently the Iowa bashers can't cut McDonough any slack. His injury, which required surgery, simply played a secondary role to whatever the know-it-alls want to throw out there.

 

Why the difference in the way McD is treated as oppossed to Nickerson for example?

 

 

 

I agree that this is just Iowa hate, but Nickerson took a lot of crap on these boards, too. And Nickerson's injury was patent and plagued him for a significant portion of his career - and he won the NCAA's with a shoulder that dislocated during his championship match. Nickerson might be the worst wrestler you could point to in order to convince people to cut McD some slack.

 

Yes but the KEY difference between McDonough and Nickerson was that McDonough wasn't remotely the technical wrestler that Nickerson was. Nickerson was considerably more able to stay in position and win with an injured shoulder. McDonough dominated with his LENGTH and STRENGTH. He was one of the VERY few dominant DI guys who didn't have to set up a shot to finish it. He was able to get to the legs without much or any type of set up. He was then able to pull the legs in on ANYONE. He was also able to control everyone on top the same way. The weight cut definitely could have been a factor but his shoulder eliminated his biggest strength and his weaknesses inevitably became a bigger factor.

 

 

MSU158, I haven't read your other posts on this thread so I'm not exactly sure where you stand on this, but this is precisely the reason I think referencing Nickerson in defense of McD just isn't very persuasive. Basically you're saying that without a healthy shoulder McD didn't have the skillset to win or even place, whereas Nickerson clearly did. Some people might characterize taking shots without setups and not being able to find a way to control on top as "poor wrestling." I don't know. I like McD and I think it's silly to dismiss the injury as some seem to do. I also think his weight was a problem, although that's just speculation. My only point is that if someone is trying to defend McD's failure to place based on the injury, then referencing Nickerson is possibly the worst evidence one could raise.

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so i spoke with some scientists over the weekend and they reviewed this thread and they concluded that McD had a shoulder injury that contributed to his poor wrestling and performance at the NCAAs his senior year.

 

i'm glad we brought science into this and have a definitive conclusion and can now all stop wasting our time pointing out the short comings of a student athlete.

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so i spoke with some scientists over the weekend and they reviewed this thread and they concluded that McD had a shoulder injury that contributed to his poor wrestling and performance at the NCAAs his senior year.

 

i'm glad we brought science into this and have a definitive conclusion and can now all stop wasting our time pointing out the short comings of a student athlete.

 

Why would you ask scientists that? Did you ask them about your standard of 100% certainty that no serious scientist holds when it comes to judging the validity of a theory?

 

Who here dismissed the idea that McD's shoulder injury played a role in his wresting performance? That, along with very poor wrestling in key situations cost him at ncaas earlier this year.

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so i spoke with some scientists over the weekend and they reviewed this thread and they concluded that McD had a shoulder injury that contributed to his poor wrestling and performance at the NCAAs his senior year.

 

i'm glad we brought science into this and have a definitive conclusion and can now all stop wasting our time pointing out the short comings of a student athlete.

 

Why would you ask scientists that? Did you ask them about your standard of 100% certainty that no serious scientist holds when it comes to judging the validity of a theory?

 

Who here dismissed the idea that McD's shoulder injury played a role in his wresting performance? That, along with very poor wrestling in key situations cost him at ncaas earlier this year.

 

please, youre the one who invoked the arbiters of science, at least have the decency to abide by their ruling and cease your inane prattling. thank you.

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[

 

please, youre the one who invoked the arbiters of science, at least have the decency to abide by their ruling and cease your inane prattling. thank you.

 

First, I know scientists. Second, where did I ever ask you to get a scientists opinion on McD's injury, I never asked that.

 

The only time I brought up science was to point out that your standard of 100% certainty is something that any serious scientists avoids. Did you not read my comments?

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First, I know scientists.

 

nice try, i spoke with the international council of scientists and theyve never heard of you. tell me another one why dont you.

 

I see you're not willing to be serious any longer. This is common behavior on this board when someone knows they can no longer defend their position.

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