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SalvatoreG

Iowa... Honest question

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What are the questions you want answered super? I'd love to answer them as best as I can.

 

I wasn't talking about you cardsfsc. As I recall, our positions are very similar. I was more talking about a few other posters on this thread.

 

if you are allowing for the shoulder injury to have had a negative affect on McD's NCAA performance, despite what he or Brands may have said immediately following the tournament, then i now dont believe there is much discrepancy in our opinions on the matter.

 

No, it's not despite what he and Brands said. Where do you get that from? I never heard McD say that his shoulder/arm didn't bother him.

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Obviously there were multiple factors involved as stated already. That being said, how long was McD hurt? I contend that having a torn labrum for an extended period of time had a huge affect on his ability to prepare...ie practice. Inability to practice like you know you should be practicing will have a huge affect on you physically and mentally...it's all related but most sane people would have to admit that if you have to go most of the season with a bum shoulder...you won't be as prepared as you would be with a full season with two good shoulders. Sure he didn't wrestle well at the NCAA's, sure he won some big matches throughout the season despite the fact. I contend that most of the guys wouldn't have even been in those matches to make the difference if McD was healthy the whole year. And yes, McD could have wrestled better and won those matches despite the fact, it's all on him but I think the shoulder was a major overall factor.

 

And did you really say you tend to believe all people with their word??? Do politicians count?

 

Well I agree with cardsfsc post too. So I guess the argument is settled - at least for me.

 

 

What did you have an issue with in my posts? Did you disagree with my post that I pointed you to on page 3?

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Now Rossel will bash me as a hawk hater here, but I'm just being honest when I say that superold makes some compelling arguments. I was one of those that just chalked up the performance to injury without much more thought but after reading this thread I have to admit the injury in-itself couldn't possibly of been the reason.

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No, it's not despite what he and Brands said. Where do you get that from? I never heard McD say that his shoulder/arm didn't bother him.

 

you just denied that the injury COULD be the primary reason for his subpar NCAA performance, whereas i argued that none of us are in a position to know exactly how much the injury prevented him from wrestling to McD's full potential, therefore we should at least allow for that possibility. for some reason you didnt want to allow for that possibility, as slim as it may be, thus i asked why you were 100% sure, to which you started invoking the scientific method, which let to my confusion and subsequent capitulation on "meaningful discourse".

 

quite the thrilling topic. im reveling in the flashbacks as i type.

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maybe I missed something at 125.....but I dont see what people are impressed with by Gilman.

 

Sure, he kept it close with a two time finalist. What I saw was Gilman taking only one shot the entire match.....attempted literally zero offense and simply tried to slow the match down with the underhook and pushing Megaludis out of bounds.

 

Megaludis' condition eventually allowed him to wear Gilman down and win the match. Mega was clearly annoyed by the stalling tactics and was not happy with his performance.

 

Dont get me wrong....not trying to put Gilman down. He did what he needed to do to keep the score close and give himself a chance to win late. I was just not as impressed as others seem to be with his performance.

I do believe he is a talented wrestler and will do very well in the future. With his frame, he looks to be a nice fit for Iowa at 133 next year.

 

Impressed yet?

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you just denied that the injury COULD be the primary reason for his subpar NCAA performance, whereas i argued that none of us are in a position to know exactly how much the injury prevented him from wrestling to McD's full potential, therefore we should at least allow for that possibility. for some reason you didnt want to allow for that possibility, as slim as it may be, thus i asked why you were 100% sure, to which you started invoking the scientific method, which let to my confusion and subsequent capitulation on "meaningful discourse".

 

You asked about 100% certainty, which is a ridiculous standard to use. I don't know what you're talking about. I've said that McD's injury could not be fully chalked up to his shoulder/arm injury and that poor wrestling/technique was a factor.

 

You asked me questions that weren't relevant to my position. Why do I need to know exactly 100% how McD's injury played a factor, when I know that it wasn't the only reason?

 

I'm starting to get lost in this thread since so many people are responding to me while often missing my position. So Jaroslev, I didn't want to allow for what possibity?

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so would you leave open the possibility that brands and McD were saying that the injury wasn't a factor when it actually may have been, or are you 100% certain that the Brands McD position should be taken completely literally

 

Jaroslav, I believe the confusion started with this post of yours. I've never heard Brands or McD say that the injury wasn't a factor. The quotes I was referring to came out in an interview where McD talks about his season after the fact, and touches on how his injury affected him.

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you just denied that the injury COULD be the primary reason for his subpar NCAA performance, whereas i argued that none of us are in a position to know exactly how much the injury prevented him from wrestling to McD's full potential, therefore we should at least allow for that possibility. for some reason you didnt want to allow for that possibility, as slim as it may be, thus i asked why you were 100% sure, to which you started invoking the scientific method, which let to my confusion and subsequent capitulation on "meaningful discourse".

 

You asked about 100% certainty, which is a ridiculous standard to use. I don't know what you're talking about. I've said that McD's injury could not be fully chalked up to his shoulder/arm injury and that poor wrestling/technique was a factor.

 

You asked me questions that weren't relevant to my position. Why do I need to know exactly 100% how McD's injury played a factor, when I know that it wasn't the only reason?

 

I'm starting to get lost in this thread since so many people are responding to me while often missing my position. So Jaroslev, I didn't want to allow for what possibity?

 

no, im not asking for 100% certainties. never have. I'm suggesting you SHOULD NOT to be 100% certain you know how much McD's injury affected his performance. cant be any more clear about.

 

some of the confusion may also come from your tendency to ask at least 4+ questions per comment. i dont believe that habit to be very conducive to meaningful discourse.

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so would you leave open the possibility that brands and McD were saying that the injury wasn't a factor when it actually may have been, or are you 100% certain that the Brands McD position should be taken completely literally

 

Jaroslav, I believe the confusion started with this post of yours. I've never heard Brands or McD say that the injury wasn't a factor. The quotes I was referring to came out in an interview where McD talks about his season after the fact, and touches on how his injury affected him.

 

great, then we agree.

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no, im not asking for 100% certainties. never have. I'm suggesting you SHOULD NOT to be 100% certain you know how much McD's injury affected his performance. cant be any more clear about.

 

 

Well, I'm not saying I'm 100% certain that I know how much of McD's performance was affected by injury. Unless, you want to say that I'm wrong(or claiming 100% certainty) for saying that McD could have wrestled better on the mat. Specifically, in his match against Garret for example. Given how much he had left in his body, he was capable of doing more. He had enough in him to execute better technique on bottom, and from neutral in that match. That's what I'm saying.

 

some of the confusion may also come from your tendency to ask at least 4+ questions per comment. i dont believe that habit to be very conducive to meaningful discourse.

 

I'll try to cut down on the questions. Some of my questions are rhetorical. I'll try to make it clear what questions that I'd like answered in the future. Sorry.

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no, im not asking for 100% certainties. never have. I'm suggesting you SHOULD NOT to be 100% certain you know how much McD's injury affected his performance. cant be any more clear about.

 

 

Well, I'm not saying I'm 100% certain that I know how much of McD's performance was affected by injury. Unless, you want to say that I'm wrong(or claiming 100% certainty) for saying that McD could have wrestled better on the mat. Specifically, in his match against Garret for example. Given how much he had left in his body, he was capable of doing more. He had enough in him to execute better technique on bottom, and from neutral in that match. That's what I'm saying.

 

some of the confusion may also come from your tendency to ask at least 4+ questions per comment. i dont believe that habit to be very conducive to meaningful discourse.

 

I'll try to cut down on the questions. Some of my questions are rhetorical. I'll try to make it clear what questions that I'd like answered in the future. Sorry.

 

fair enough on all points. apologies if i ever got snippy in my replies.

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I'm not an Iowa fan at all, but i agree with rossel. McD was injured last year. His problems really stem from that injury. Of course he didn't wrestle as well as he could have, because he was injured.

 

This isn't inconsistent with my stated position Tbar. I only go a little further and say that it was more than his just his injury that cost him at ncaas. Even given his lower state of health at the ncaas, he was still capable of wrestling better. He was physically capable of executing better technique/ skills, but he didn't do that. Do you deny that?

 

It's almost as if people believe that McD (or any wrestler with a health problem) was a perfect wrestler before the health problems. He made mistakes at 100% health, why isn't he capable of making those same mistakes when he gets hurt? Just because you make mistakes while hurt, doesn't mean that you being hurt is the reason for all of those mistakes. This is obvious.

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I'm not an Iowa fan at all, but i agree with rossel. McD was injured last year. His problems really stem from that injury. Of course he didn't wrestle as well as he could have, because he was injured.

 

This isn't inconsistent with my stated position Tbar. I only go a little further and say that it was more than his just his injury that cost him at ncaas. Even given his lower state of health at the ncaas, he was still capable of wrestling better. He was physically capable of executing better technique/ skills, but he didn't do that. Do you deny that?

 

It's almost as if people believe that McD (or any wrestler with a health problem) was a perfect wrestler before the health problems. He made mistakes at 100% health, why isn't he capable of making those same mistakes when he gets hurt? Just because you make mistakes while hurt, doesn't mean that you being hurt is the reason for all of those mistakes. This is obvious.

 

Like John Smith is still mad to this day he lost to Jim Jordan his sophomore year. Doesn't matter to him that he had a dislocated shoulder.

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Like John Smith is still mad to this day he lost to Jim Jordan his sophomore year. Doesn't matter to him that he had a dislocated shoulder.

Which time - Jordan beat him twice that season?

 

Not the in-season loss.

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Rossel3 isn't going to give you any honest answers, superold. His primary modi operandi include asking strawman questions and distorting others' positions (as he has yours). The plain fact of the matter is that he wants folks to believe that McDonough's shoulder injury was the only reason for his decline in performance. And, in his world, anyone who doesn't agree 100% with his subjective opinion is, ipso facto, an "Iowa basher."

 

Unfortunately for Rossel, Mcdonough himself has confirmed that the shoulder injury was not the only thing bothering him in 2013. Matt also cited the toll the weight cut took on him, as well as his mental preparation, as other problems that impacted his performance.

.

----

 

I'll always try to give honest answers to sincere questions. I'm not big on feeding trolls though.

 

Speaking of distorting positions, I've never said the shoulder was the *only* reason for McD's performance decline. Never. You are simply making your own strawman and attacking it.

 

I said the shoulder injury was an important factor, and probably the major contributor (more than weight cut, more than others "catching up", etc). This isn't going out on a limb, and is what most posters probably would agree with. But not you and a few Iowa bashers.

 

Hurricane, you are an expert at examining twigs and missing the forest. Happy New Year.

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Rossel3 isn't going to give you any honest answers, superold. His primary modi operandi include asking strawman questions and distorting others' positions (as he has yours). The plain fact of the matter is that he wants folks to believe that McDonough's shoulder injury was the only reason for his decline in performance. And, in his world, anyone who doesn't agree 100% with his subjective opinion is, ipso facto, an "Iowa basher."

 

Unfortunately for Rossel, Mcdonough himself has confirmed that the shoulder injury was not the only thing bothering him in 2013. Matt also cited the toll the weight cut took on him, as well as his mental preparation, as other problems that impacted his performance.

.

----

 

I'll always try to give honest answers to sincere questions. I'm not big on feeding trolls though.

 

Speaking of distorting positions, I've never said the shoulder was the *only* reason for McD's performance decline. Never. You are simply making your own strawman and attacking it.

 

I said the shoulder injury was an important factor, and probably the major contributor (more than weight cut, more than others "catching up", etc). This isn't going out on a limb, and is what most posters probably would agree with. But not you and a few Iowa bashers.

 

Hurricane, you are an expert at examining twigs and missing the forest. Happy New Year.

:lol: There you go making stuff up again, rossel3. Here's a verbatim exchange we had back in April:

 

A couple of Hawk fans, including Rossel, took offense in 2011 when Wire suggested that McDonough needed to bump up (although he also said the same about Oliver). It was as if they were in denial that Matt was a relatively big weight cutter. However, that seemed to be pretty common knowledge.

 

WIN magazine even wrote a pre-season article stating that it was "quite remarkable" that McDonough was still at 125 "considering the Hawkeye stands 5-foot-7-and-1/2 inches and competed at 130 pounds for Linn-Mar High School." Brands was quoted as saying; "“He is extremely disciplined in his lifestyle and extremely disciplined in his discipline.”

 

The last part of Brands' comment was pretty enigmatic :P , but it seems clear that "disciplined lifestyle" would include holding his weight down to 125 all those years.

I realize this is spitting into the wind with some posters anti-Brands, anti-Iowa bias. Rather than just say, "Perhaps I was too quick to judge, and just maybe McD's performance drop-off sr year was due to a significant shoulder injury," we now have to relate it to weight cutting and even extending blame to Coach Brands.

 

Isn't it just possible it was purely an injury? Does the anti-Iowa bias not permit that to be uttered by some folks?

 

Btw, Nick Simmons, in the same weight class as McD, is 5'10".

Now, rossel3, it's quite clear from the above that you were implying that McD's drop off in performance was due to "purely an injury." You even admonished those who even mentioned weight cutting as a contributing factor, suggesting that was "anti-Iowa bias."

 

And what about your comment that Nick Simmons was in the same weight class as McD, but was taller at 5'10"? Was that not an attempt to rebut WIN magazine's conclusion that it was "quite remarkable" that McDonough was still at 125 "considering the Hawkeye stands 5-foot-7-and-1/2 inches and competed at 130 pounds for Linn-Mar High School" ?

 

You may crawfish all you want now, rossel3. Go ahead and pretend that you always considered the weight cut and others' catching up as contributing factors - in addition to the injury. Then look back at this link, and you'll see that's the same position I articulated 8 months ago.

 

Glad we could come to agreement. Happy New Year!

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I realize this is spitting into the wind with some posters anti-Brands, anti-Iowa bias. Rather than just say, "Perhaps I was too quick to judge, and just maybe McD's performance drop-off sr year was due to a significant shoulder injury," we now have to relate it to weight cutting and even extending blame to Coach Brands.

 

Isn't it just possible it was purely an injury? Does the anti-Iowa bias not permit that to be uttered by some folks?

 

Glad we could come to agreement. Happy New Year!

------

 

Hurricane, let me help with your reading skills.

 

Asking a question is not the same thing as making a firm declaration as if fact, despite your (typical) tendency to distort by extrapolating.

 

Asking a question, ("isn't it possible it was purely an injury?") is not me declaring that it WAS purely an injury.

 

I try to never make absolute statements as if fact, unless I know them to be true.

 

In the case of McD's performance drop-off sr year, I always suspected there was some underlying reason, illness or injury. When everything came out after the season (shoulder surgery), I then felt, and still do, that injury was the MAJOR reason for his drop-off. I don't split hairs over percentages. You want to say 95% due to shoulder injury, 4% due to weight cut, and 1% due to getting out of the wrong side of bed, allergies, constipation etc, fine... go for it.

 

I used to think you were a smart fellow, but now I'm beginning to have my doubts.

 

Great football games on today, eh? MSU... congrats!

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