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The Historical Significance of Stieber's loss.

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A month back I started the topic, "The Historical Significance of Stieber's win" after the All Star where Stieber beat Maple. At the time, the win was great. The defending 133 pound champ bumping up to take on the defending 141 pound champ (currently at 149) while weighing six pounds less. Very impressive if you ask me.

 

The win over Maple looked like it put Stieber clearly as the frontrunner in the Hodge trophy race. It also looked like a feat that could potentially elevate him above some of the other 4 timers, IF Stieber does in fact go on to win two more titles like many think he will. Stieber was sitting pretty on cloud nine. It looked like he would finish with 4 titles with 3 consecutive undefeated seasons on his record. BUT then....

 

The unthinkable happened. Stieber lost. He lost to a freshman. He lost to a TRUE freshman. This loss hurts. The chance of 3 consecutive undefeated seasons down the drain. Although he still has a chance of winning 4 titles, this loss imo, puts him at the bottom of the 4 timer list (I know that has to hurt REALLY bad ;). If Stieber goes on to win 4, he'd be the only 4 timer who lost as an upperclassmen. He'd be the only 4 timer who wasn't ranked #1 throughout his entire junior and senior years. He'd be the only 4 timer who's ncaa title chances were questioned, even if just a little, when he was an upperclassmen.

 

With Stieber pinning/teching/majoring more than Dake and Pat Smith, I heard a few early rumblings implying that Stieber would be placed ahead of those two if he ran the table without anymore blemishes. Well, a young freshman blemished his record and I doubt most would make the "dominance" argument in his favor after this loss.

 

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this matter. Thanks for reading.

 

Edit: Here's "The Historical Significance of Stieber's win" for anyone who missed it.

 

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=234611

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Your last post showed the importance of not jumping the gun multiple years in advance.

 

I'm as big a Stieber fan as anyone, but let him win three, and then four, before we rank him among the gods of college wrestling.

 

But I thought that's what we do around here? According to the forum, David Taylor is already one of the greats of all time. If one ncaa title does the trick, what can two do for Logan? :)

 

 

On a serious note, you're right wrestlingnerd. My question is mostly to be viewed hypothetically. Assuming Stieber wins 4, I see this loss putting him as the 4th of the 4 time champs.

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>> It looked like he would finish with 4 titles with 3 consecutive undefeated seasons on his record. BUT ...

 

.... But I agree with the above reply - and even worse was the part about consecutive unbeaten years. Nobody needs or deserves absurd pressure like this. It's simply too rare, especially in today's 35-40 bout seasons. It's rare enough to have 2 straight.

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Nothing is guaranteed in college wrestling. McIlravy looked like a four-timer at one point, too. Still, if there were betting odds on the NCAA finals, Stieber would still be the favorite, and he'd be favored to become a four-timer. So if Stieber (70-3) becomes a four timer, How will he be judged compared to the other four timers? I think it depends very much on his freestyle career. Pat Smith (121-5-2) didn't win any world medals. Sanderson (159-0) won a world silver and Olympic gold. Dake (132-4) is still out there working for some hardware. And as long as we're splitting hairs, it might be relevant that Smith and Dake wrestled as true freshman. The bottom line is, we're still a long ways away from being able to rank these guys.

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The significance of BOTH shows how hard it is to go up a weight class and have the same level of dominance. Which is why what Dake did was the most historic feat in college wrestling history, and even more so when you think about who was waiting for him after his final weight jump.

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Does Stieber get redemption if he crushes Rutherford the next time they face each other?

 

What if he wins 141 next year, jumps in for his brother at 149 and wins that, too?

 

What can the poor guy do to get some potential 4 timer respect and a little love from the Hodge gallery?

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Does Stieber get redemption if he crushes Rutherford the next time they face each other?

 

 

Who is this Rutherford guy? Stieber had his Hodge hopes flushed down the toilet by Retherford almost two weeks ago. Hearing his interview on FLO he is fine by it, and he was honest and made NO excuses. The guy is all class in my book, and that is coming from a PSU fan. The dude lost to a TF as a huge favorite, and still was a great sportsman and shook Zain's hand like a man. Too many poor sports refuse to look at the winner and shake hands after losing. Logan will be fine and come NCAA's if he is 100%, I do not see anyone beating him. I will root for him, unless he wrestles Zain again of course.

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I know other top guys throughout history may have wrestled sick ... and won, but something tells me Stieber may not have been on his "A" game somehow. I wear blue and white glasses and I say this, too.

 

Zain is awesome, obviously, but he hasn't looked as dominant as Logan is his previous victories. Or maybe he just doesn't match up well with Zain. Zain could end up being to Logan what Dake was to Taylor.

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"The Historical Significance of Stieber's loss."

 

It has no historical significance (yet).

 

Some potential exists, seemingly, for the loss to be an historically significant footnote in Stieber's resume. OR the win over Stieber could be a footnote in Retherford's resume (a possibility which it appears did not occur to the thread author).

 

We don't know.

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i guess we'll see but i personally think people spend way too much time focusing on undefeated seasons and "career" accomplishments in NCAA wrestling. theres only 4 years of eligibility, and almost all the competitors are young and still developing. a lot of luck and timing go into those records. i prefer to just appreciate the competitors for who they are and enjoy the show.

 

i also agree with the posters that are just impressed with both retherford and stieber's attitude. they are both extremely tough and talented kids. i'm looking forward to a rematch.

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i guess we'll see but i personally think people spend way too much time focusing on undefeated seasons and "career" accomplishments in NCAA wrestling. theres only 4 years of eligibility, and almost all the competitors are young and still developing. a lot of luck and timing go into those records. i prefer to just appreciate the competitors for who they are and enjoy the show.

 

i also agree with the posters that are just impressed with both retherford and stieber's attitude. they are both extremely tough and talented kids. i'm looking forward to a rematch.

 

+14

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IMO.... post college should have NO bearing on NCAA folkstyle results.

 

The skill set that brings people freestyle success has a bearing on NCAA results.

Don't you think Burroughs' immediate freestyle success can bolster an assertion that he is the GOAT or that John Smith's success while in school can bolster an assertion for him?

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I know other top guys throughout history may have wrestled sick ... and won, but something tells me Stieber may not have been on his "A" game somehow.

 

Heard from a very unreliable source (cousin's girl friend's uncle's step mom) that Zain had mono and a nasty staff infection, so if Zain on his C game beat Logan's B+ game ...

 

For the sake of the fans, the top wrestlers should be allowed to let the ref know, prior to the handshake, if they don't have their A game, then said ref can't void the match if the "top" wrestler is losing at the end. :roll:

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I dont think there is any significance just yet. Stieber, imo, can still dominate Retherford, which would limit some damage. I think Retherford this year as a true freshman is better than Bailey, LeValley, and Vinson. That is just my opinion. If Stieber wins out, I would still put him above Dake and Smith. Dake's 4 titles in 4 weights is more of a gimmick for people to overhype. He grew. He didnt move up in some mythical quest. He just simply got bigger. Dake had way too many close matches, and didnt even win his conference 4 times. Stieber would leap Dake on my list if he won out.

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I dont think there is any significance just yet. Stieber, imo, can still dominate Retherford, which would limit some damage. I think Retherford this year as a true freshman is better than Bailey, LeValley, and Vinson. That is just my opinion. If Stieber wins out, I would still put him above Dake and Smith. Dake's 4 titles in 4 weights is more of a gimmick for people to overhype. He grew. He didnt move up in some mythical quest. He just simply got bigger. Dake had way too many close matches, and didnt even win his conference 4 times. Stieber would leap Dake on my list if he won out.

 

Hahahaha. Is this a serious post? For starters, Dake lost one of those matches as a TRUE freshman and the others as a true sophomore. Stieber lost to a true freshman as a redshirt junior, which would be the equivalent of Dake losing to a true freshman as a senior in college.

 

The argument from "dominance" for Stieber over Dake should be abandoned at this point imo. For all Stieber's "dominance" in comparison to Dake's, he wasn't able to go undefeated as a junior. A perfect win/loss record is the first criteria for dominance.

 

I largely agree with the 4 weights thing about Dake, but Dake wasn't going to go up as a senior until he was egged on by Jordan Burroughs. Dake didn't outgrow 157 like he did 141 and 149.

 

btw, the often overlooked Pat Smith didn't lose a match outside his true freshman year. Stieber lost 3 times as true freshman, twice as a redshirt freshman, and once as a redshirt junior. Winning should trump everything else. That's how it was back in the day at least.

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IMO.... post college should have NO bearing on NCAA folkstyle results.

 

I agree freestyle should have no bearing on folkstyle results. But I think freestyle results can be relevant when determining which of two folkstyle wrestlers were better. This is particularly true when two folkstyle wrestlers have similar folkstyle accomplishments.

 

For example, let's look at John Smith and Brent Metcalf. They both are two-time champions, and one-time runners up. So based on those results, they were equal wrestlers. What about winning percentage? Smith's winning percentage is 94.5% and Metcalf's is 97%. So would you say Metcalf was a better Smith?

 

I think it's obvious Smith was better than Metcalf, and I am confident about that based on their respective freestyle results.

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