Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
superold

The Historical Significance of Stieber's loss.

Recommended Posts

I dont think there is any significance just yet. Stieber, imo, can still dominate Retherford, which would limit some damage. I think Retherford this year as a true freshman is better than Bailey, LeValley, and Vinson. That is just my opinion. If Stieber wins out, I would still put him above Dake and Smith. Dake's 4 titles in 4 weights is more of a gimmick for people to overhype. He grew. He didnt move up in some mythical quest. He just simply got bigger. Dake had way too many close matches, and didnt even win his conference 4 times. Stieber would leap Dake on my list if he won out.

 

Hahahaha. Is this a serious post? For starters, Dake lost one of those matches as a TRUE freshman and the others as a true sophomore. Stieber lost to a true freshman as a redshirt junior, which would be the equivalent of Dake losing to a true freshman as a senior in college.

 

The argument from "dominance" for Stieber over Dake should be abandoned at this point imo. For all Stieber's "dominance" in comparison to Dake's, he wasn't able to go undefeated as a junior. A perfect win/loss record is the first criteria for dominance.

 

I largely agree with the 4 weights thing about Dake, but Dake wasn't going to go up as a senior until he was egged on by Jordan Burroughs. Dake didn't outgrow 157 like he did 141 and 149.

 

btw, the often overlooked Pat Smith didn't lose a match outside his true freshman year. Stieber lost 3 times as true freshman, twice as a redshirt freshman, and once as a redshirt junior. Winning should trump everything else. That's how it was back in the day at least.

 

Ok Superold. Stop annoyingly asking 1000 questions constantly, if you dont want to hear different opinions.

 

I personally am just not a fan of Dake's style or his personality. I wont argue his place in college history, he won 4 titles. It's my PERSONAL OPINION that Dake won his 4 titles on 80% heart and determination. As far as pure wrestling talent, I can name a dozen wrestlers that are better. This is my opinion and sure others share it as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Snapspinscore,

 

Would you like to share why you aren't a fan of Dake's style or personality? I'm really very curious. From your past posts, it did seem to me that you had a problem with Dake, his fans, or both. That's what made me laugh.

 

And could you define "pure wrestling talent"? I'm not sure what that means; sounds very ambiguous to me. That's only two questions Snap, hopefully you answer. I'd like to understand your position better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Snapspinscore,

 

Would you like to share why you aren't a fan of Dake's style or personality? I'm really very curious. From your past posts, it did seem to me that you had a problem with Dake, his fans, or both. That's what made me laugh.

 

And could you define "pure wrestling talent"? I'm not sure what that means; sounds very ambiguous to me. That's only two questions Snap, hopefully you answer. I'd like to understand your position better.

 

Well, 1.) he's cocky and arrogant. When other wrestlers have acted this way in the past such as Mocco, Hendricks, Bubba (pre-pinning David Taylor), and others, they all got blasted on this very forum. When Dake does it, "its great for wrestling". That attitude has nothing to do with being great for wrestling. Nobody new to the sport will want to watch more wrestling just because some kid is cocky and confident. I thought it was awesome when JB teched him.

 

2.) IMO he's boring. He is really really boring. He has shown that he can be explosive and athletic, yet chooses this boring style of his. He just sits there in solid position, rarely looking to score, instead waiting to counter. He is defensive, and hes boring on top. He is not exciting to me. I dont feel he has the range of attacks that Taylor, J. Smith, Sanderson, Stieber, Delgado, Abas, Ruth, Burroughs, and others that I dont feel like rambling on about. What he does have, is a ridiculous will to win. That I can never take away from him or downplay. I think internationally he will never be a world champ or olympic champ, because his style will become predictable for international competition. He doesnt have the offensive range to continually win internationally. I dont care if he beat Tsargush or not. Tsargush now, is not the world champ of before. Not even close. Not even the Tsargush that challenged JB. Great win, just not as great as it would have been 3-4 years ago in Tsargush prime.

 

Career achievements, you cant argue his place. My opinion is another matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, 1.) he's cocky and arrogant. When other wrestlers have acted this way in the past such as Mocco, Hendricks, Bubba (pre-pinning David Taylor), and others, they all got blasted on this very forum. When Dake does it, "its great for wrestling". That attitude has nothing to do with being great for wrestling. Nobody new to the sport will want to watch more wrestling just because some kid is cocky and confident. I thought it was awesome when JB teched him.

 

2.) IMO he's boring. He is really really boring. He has shown that he can be explosive and athletic, yet chooses this boring style of his. He just sits there in solid position, rarely looking to score, instead waiting to counter. He is defensive, and hes boring on top. He is not exciting to me. I dont feel he has the range of attacks that Taylor, J. Smith, Sanderson, Stieber, Delgado, Abas, Ruth, Burroughs, and others that I dont feel like rambling on about. What he does have, is a ridiculous will to win. That I can never take away from him or downplay. I think internationally he will never be a world champ or olympic champ, because his style will become predictable for international competition. He doesnt have the offensive range to continually win internationally. I dont care if he beat Tsargush or not. Tsargush now, is not the world champ of before. Not even close. Not even the Tsargush that challenged JB. Great win, just not as great as it would have been 3-4 years ago in Tsargush prime.

 

Career achievements, you cant argue his place. My opinion is another matter.

 

Snap,

 

Not to "annoyingly ask 1000 questions", but what specifically has Dake done for you to classify him as cocky and arrogant? I can't remember what he said/did.

 

And you didn't mention your definition of "pure wrestling talent". Many may agree with you depending on how you define it. Does it simply mean offensive variety?

 

I also think you may be putting too much weight on simple "entertainment". It's not the job of wrestlers to entertain the fans. Dake's style may not be very entertaining to you, but he's very effective. What does it say about his opponents when his "boring" style can shutdown other entertaining wrestlers? If he's 80% heart and determination, what does it say about all the other "more skilled" wrestlers heart that he beat? What does it say about their technique if Dake is largely able to overcome it by simply gritting his teeth and trying hard? Although I'm sure you don't intend it, your comments make everyone that Dake has beaten look very bad. Including Taylor, and I know you are a big Taylor fan. If Taylor can be taken off his game mostly by his opponent being ultra competitive, then Taylor probably has even less of a shot to make a world team than Dake.

 

For the record, Taylor was techfalled by Tsargush when they met, and Dake beat Tsargush by 5 or 6 points. Tsargush, even after being dethroned, has wins over world medalists at 74kg. He's still world class. I don't think a "not even close to his prime" is justified, he's only 26 years old! I'm not sure he's reached his prime yet! Also, at the same tournament where Dake beat Tsargush, he also beat Ali Shabanov, who had already won a bronze medal at the 2013 Worlds before Dake beat him. Don't forget that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IMO.... post college should have NO bearing on NCAA folkstyle results.

 

I agree freestyle should have no bearing on folkstyle results. But I think freestyle results can be relevant when determining which of two folkstyle wrestlers were better. This is particularly true when two folkstyle wrestlers have similar folkstyle accomplishments.

 

For example, let's look at John Smith and Brent Metcalf. They both are two-time champions, and one-time runners up. So based on those results, they were equal wrestlers. What about winning percentage? Smith's winning percentage is 94.5% and Metcalf's is 97%. So would you say Metcalf was a better Smith?

 

I think it's obvious Smith was better than Metcalf, and I am confident about that based on their respective freestyle results.

 

not sure you have to even bring up the freestyle results to argue that Smith was better. Smith's winning % probably better for his last 3 years vs Metcalf's 3 year career. Smith 'won out'...2 titles in a row after a runner-up finish vs 1-2-1 for Metcalf. Smith 'won out' to the tune of what, 90 wins in a row? While Metcalf won what, his last 6 matches in a row?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I dont think there is any significance just yet. Stieber, imo, can still dominate Retherford, which would limit some damage. I think Retherford this year as a true freshman is better than Bailey, LeValley, and Vinson. That is just my opinion. If Stieber wins out, I would still put him above Dake and Smith. Dake's 4 titles in 4 weights is more of a gimmick for people to overhype. He grew. He didnt move up in some mythical quest. He just simply got bigger. Dake had way too many close matches, and didnt even win his conference 4 times. Stieber would leap Dake on my list if he won out.

 

Hahahaha. Is this a serious post? For starters, Dake lost one of those matches as a TRUE freshman and the others as a true sophomore. Stieber lost to a true freshman as a redshirt junior, which would be the equivalent of Dake losing to a true freshman as a senior in college.

 

The argument from "dominance" for Stieber over Dake should be abandoned at this point imo. For all Stieber's "dominance" in comparison to Dake's, he wasn't able to go undefeated as a junior. A perfect win/loss record is the first criteria for dominance.

 

I largely agree with the 4 weights thing about Dake, but Dake wasn't going to go up as a senior until he was egged on by Jordan Burroughs. Dake didn't outgrow 157 like he did 141 and 149.

 

btw, the often overlooked Pat Smith didn't lose a match outside his true freshman year. Stieber lost 3 times as true freshman, twice as a redshirt freshman, and once as a redshirt junior. Winning should trump everything else. That's how it was back in the day at least.

 

Ok Superold. Stop annoyingly asking 1000 questions constantly, if you dont want to hear different opinions.

 

I personally am just not a fan of Dake's style or his personality. I wont argue his place in college history, he won 4 titles. It's my PERSONAL OPINION that Dake won his 4 titles on 80% heart and determination. As far as pure wrestling talent, I can name a dozen wrestlers that are better. This is my opinion and sure others share it as well.

 

The bolded is one of the stupidest things I've ever read.

 

We know it's your opinion because you wrote it. That doesn't mean your **** opinion can't be criticized for being a **** opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IMO.... post college should have NO bearing on NCAA folkstyle results.

 

I agree freestyle should have no bearing on folkstyle results. But I think freestyle results can be relevant when determining which of two folkstyle wrestlers were better. This is particularly true when two folkstyle wrestlers have similar folkstyle accomplishments.

 

For example, let's look at John Smith and Brent Metcalf. They both are two-time champions, and one-time runners up. So based on those results, they were equal wrestlers. What about winning percentage? Smith's winning percentage is 94.5% and Metcalf's is 97%. So would you say Metcalf was a better Smith?

 

I think it's obvious Smith was better than Metcalf, and I am confident about that based on their respective freestyle results.

 

not sure you have to even bring up the freestyle results to argue that Smith was better. Smith's winning % probably better for his last 3 years vs Metcalf's 3 year career. Smith 'won out'...2 titles in a row after a runner-up finish vs 1-2-1 for Metcalf. Smith 'won out' to the tune of what, 90 wins in a row? While Metcalf won what, his last 6 matches in a row?

 

I'm pretty sure Smith lost a match in college after winning his first World title but teched the guy later in the year.

 

edit. He lost as a Junior

http://www.wrestlingstats.com/okstate/v ... estler=307

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
^ yes think he lost his 1st match back and then ran off 90(+?) wins in a row to close out the career.

 

Looks like he had 89 wins at the end. I didn't realize he wrestled that many matches in a season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
^ yes think he lost his 1st match back and then ran off 90(+?) wins in a row to close out the career.

 

Smith won the worlds after his junior year, so he didn't lose to collegiate competition after his World title. He went undefeated as a senior.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Ok Superold. Stop annoyingly asking 1000 questions constantly, if you dont want to hear different opinions.

 

I personally am just not a fan of Dake's style or his personality. I wont argue his place in college history, he won 4 titles. It's my PERSONAL OPINION that Dake won his 4 titles on 80% heart and determination. As far as pure wrestling talent, I can name a dozen wrestlers that are better. This is my opinion and sure others share it as well.

 

The bolded is one of the stupidest things I've ever read.

 

We know it's your opinion because you wrote it. That doesn't mean your **** opinion can't be criticized for being a **** opinion.

 

Well I dont think its a **** opinion. Im sure you have plenty of **** opinions yourself. That's all I really have to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

not sure you have to even bring up the freestyle results to argue that Smith was better. Smith's winning % probably better for his last 3 years vs Metcalf's 3 year career. Smith 'won out'...2 titles in a row after a runner-up finish vs 1-2-1 for Metcalf. Smith 'won out' to the tune of what, 90 wins in a row? While Metcalf won what, his last 6 matches in a row?

 

Let's consider your argument. Let's just look at Smith's final three years, and compare them to Metcalf's final three years.

 

This is really unusual because people don't usually overlook other guys' first-year records. (For example, I don't see people jumping over themselves to only consider Lee Kemp's final three years when comparing his folkstyle record to Gable's.) But okay, whatever, you want to only look at Smith's and Metcalf's final three years. Let's try that out.

 

In his last three years, John Smith was 125-4. That's a winning percentage of 96.9%. Metcalf was 108-3. That's a winning percentage was 97.3%. So Metcalf had a better winning percentage than Smith when we look only at their final three years of competition.

 

Outside Metcalf's superior winning percentage, they had the same accomplishments in their final three years. They were both two-time champions and one-time runners up. So how do you determine which one of them was better without reference to freestyle? I don't think you can. We all know Smith was better, and that's because of his freestyle accomplishments. Any other reasoning is just a rationalization of a conclusion we all already know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I dont think there is any significance just yet. Stieber, imo, can still dominate Retherford, which would limit some damage. I think Retherford this year as a true freshman is better than Bailey, LeValley, and Vinson. That is just my opinion. If Stieber wins out, I would still put him above Dake and Smith. Dake's 4 titles in 4 weights is more of a gimmick for people to overhype. He grew. He didnt move up in some mythical quest. He just simply got bigger. Dake had way too many close matches, and didnt even win his conference 4 times. Stieber would leap Dake on my list if he won out.

 

Isn't Stieber technically older than Dake? One is a 4 time NCAA champ who is out beating former world champs with a broken hand. The other is a two time NCAA champ who just lost to a true freshman and already has more total college losses than former despite still having plenty of eligibility to go.

 

Give me a break, there really is no way to argue Stieber being better than Dake without being biased and/or crazy.

 

 

P.s. I'll take LeValley as being better than the true freshman. Either way, Dake was what... 19 when he lost that match (his final loss)? Stieber turns 23 in a month.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BigRedMachine,

 

As strange as it seems, you're right, Logan Stieber is actually older than Kyle Dake! He'll turn 23 shortly. Stieber is nearly 3 years older than Dake was when he had his last college loss. Interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Snapspinscore, I may be mistaken, but I don't believe your response to me came out the way you wanted it to. Just a heads up.

 

That last post wasn't to you. It was to the guy that said I had a **** opinion. In those words. Why would that be to you, when I quoted another post?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Snapspinscore, I may be mistaken, but I don't believe your response to me came out the way you wanted it to. Just a heads up.

 

That last post wasn't to you. It was to the guy that said I had a **** opinion. In those words. Why would that be to you, when I quoted another post?

 

I couldn't tell who you were trying to quote, it looks like you had some difficulties with your last post. I thought you were trying to respond to my last post to you. The one you never responded to. Hopefully you'll get to it later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...