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Ed Ruth all time

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If he finishes this year in dominant fashion, as we all expect, where does that put him in regards to all time? He pretty much dominated his way through his sophomore season winning a title, Junior season winning a title, and we fully expect him to do so this year as well. Top 10? Top15?

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I put him in the top tier of collegiate wrestlers ever assuming he wins it all this year. I'm not much of a wrestling historian, but his record must be at or near the top of the 3 time champs. He makes wrestling look so easy.

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He's awfully good! In the top 50 list put out for the 80th anniversary team, I have a hard time seeing who he replaces.

 

He should replace about 47 or so. The biggest problem/argument used in the GOAT argument is 4 years wrestling vs. 3. A lot of people bring up 3 year wrestlers when comparing and I think this argument would actually HELP Ruth. He, in all likelihood will finish UNDEFEATED his final 3 years. Since the 3 year wrestlers only wrestled 3 because they couldn't wrestle Varsity as freshman Ruth fits right in. As far as 4 year guys go his career record will be better than EVERYONE not named Sanderson. If he finishes this year undefeated, and more importantly, as dominant as the last 2 years he has a GREAT argument to be a TOP5 guy.

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He's awfully good! In the top 50 list put out for the 80th anniversary team, I have a hard time seeing who he replaces.

 

He should replace about 47 or so. The biggest problem/argument used in the GOAT argument is 4 years wrestling vs. 3. A lot of people bring up 3 year wrestlers when comparing and I think this argument would actually HELP Ruth. He, in all likelihood will finish UNDEFEATED his final 3 years. Since the 3 year wrestlers only wrestled 3 because they couldn't wrestle Varsity as freshman Ruth fits right in. As far as 4 year guys go his career record will be better than EVERYONE not named Sanderson. If he finishes this year undefeated, and more importantly, as dominant as the last 2 years he has a GREAT argument to be a TOP5 guy.

 

ruth also didn't wrestle varsity as a freshman

 

he is as dominant as any wrestler has been in their senior year but there are a lot of greats out there and he isn't likely to even get the hodge this year with taylor winning it

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He's awfully good! In the top 50 list put out for the 80th anniversary team, I have a hard time seeing who he replaces.

 

He should replace about 47 or so. The biggest problem/argument used in the GOAT argument is 4 years wrestling vs. 3. A lot of people bring up 3 year wrestlers when comparing and I think this argument would actually HELP Ruth. He, in all likelihood will finish UNDEFEATED his final 3 years. Since the 3 year wrestlers only wrestled 3 because they couldn't wrestle Varsity as freshman Ruth fits right in. As far as 4 year guys go his career record will be better than EVERYONE not named Sanderson. If he finishes this year undefeated, and more importantly, as dominant as the last 2 years he has a GREAT argument to be a TOP5 guy.

 

ruth also didn't wrestle varsity as a freshman

 

he is as dominant as any wrestler has been in their senior year but there are a lot of greats out there and he isn't likely to even get the hodge this year with taylor winning it

 

The only reason people think he won't win the Hodge is because of the DUI.

 

I'm only 28 so I'll just say that the only college wrestler I've seen that was better was Cael.

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He's awfully good! In the top 50 list put out for the 80th anniversary team, I have a hard time seeing who he replaces.

 

He should replace about 47 or so. The biggest problem/argument used in the GOAT argument is 4 years wrestling vs. 3. A lot of people bring up 3 year wrestlers when comparing and I think this argument would actually HELP Ruth. He, in all likelihood will finish UNDEFEATED his final 3 years. Since the 3 year wrestlers only wrestled 3 because they couldn't wrestle Varsity as freshman Ruth fits right in. As far as 4 year guys go his career record will be better than EVERYONE not named Sanderson. If he finishes this year undefeated, and more importantly, as dominant as the last 2 years he has a GREAT argument to be a TOP5 guy.

 

ruth also didn't wrestle varsity as a freshman

 

he is as dominant as any wrestler has been in their senior year but there are a lot of greats out there and he isn't likely to even get the hodge this year with taylor winning it

 

I know the use of redshirting complicates things, however my argument was based off of them only having their last 3 years of eligibility. Even before the 80's wrestlers without the redshirt option were still allowed an injury option and many gamed that system back then. I do know that there was a stretch where wrestlers were only given 4 years to complete 3 years of eligibility where it is now 5 for 4. The point still remains he will finish his last 3 years undefeated, which puts him VERY high on every list. He will also finish with only 2 Varsity losses in 4 total years of wrestling. None other than Sanderson have a better record.

 

I know the above is based off of assumptions but, IF, he does finish this year the way most believe he will his 4 year Varsity career stats, simply by the numbers, are better than anyone not named Cael.

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MSU,

 

Would you put him ahead of Lee Kemp, based solely on Kemp's losses as 17/18 year old true Freshman on

varsity?

 

Good question. He finished 143-6-1 with all 6 losses in his true freshman year. He did have a tie after that. I would have them very comparable and maybe interchangeable. I would have no issue with someone putting Kemp ahead of him, but I personally would still put Ruth ahead of Kemp.

 

Again, this is ALL based on the ASSUMPTION he finishes this year undefeated and as dominantly as last year.

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MSU,

 

Would you put him ahead of Lee Kemp, based solely on Kemp's losses as 17/18 year old true Freshman on

varsity?

 

Good question. He finished 143-6-1 with all 6 losses in his true freshman year. He did have a tie after that. I would have them very comparable and maybe interchangeable. I would have no issue with someone putting Kemp ahead of him, but I personally would still put Ruth ahead of Kemp.

 

Again, this is ALL based on the ASSUMPTION he finishes this year undefeated and as dominantly as last year.

Being a UW alum, I cannot make an unbiased choice. I think they are very close, Ruth having fewer total losses, Kemp being a 4-time finalist and not taking a Blair year plus a redshirt year before competing on varsity. We are talking all-time greats here. I hope Ruth closes it out the way we think he will.

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http://www.maxpreps.com/news/JZvmnKK1v0iQQfq8hIWunA/ohio,-new-jersey-have-nations-best-wrestlers.htm

 

# MemoryLane , # unexpected , # where have they all gone

 

Interesting to go back and read articles from when the current crop of college seniors were seniors in high school ...

 

I recently looked up the PIAA brackets from the last year I helped out with coaching and there were a lot of big names.

 

Ed Ruth

Q. Wright

Jordan Oliver

Steve Bosak

Nico Megaludis

Mitchell Port

Josh Dziewa

Josh Kindig

Dylan Alton

Andrew Alton

James Fleming

Walter Peppleman

Joey Napoli

 

http://www.piaa.org/assets/web/document ... A_Brax.pdf

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What does "a blair year" mean? He didn't wrestle there as a post-grad so I don't see how it's relevant.

He transferred there for the sole purpose of getting elite wrestling training that would prepare him for college wrestling. This was an advantage that Kemp did not have. That is all. No judgement, if it was my son, I would want him to go to Blair.

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I'm hoping that Stienhaus puts a dent in the Ruth legend. It's a longshot I know, and as the fund guys say I'll have to buy in to the "past performance is not an indicator of future results", but I'm not ready for a Ruth coronation this early in the season.

 

That said, I appreciate the opportunity to watch someone who is arguably one of the all time greats.

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He has to be in the conversation if he wins again. When guys who are pretty good move out of weight class that is a sign of how dominant you are. People are avoiding 165 (Taylor) and 184 (Ruth). Munoz and Vering moved to 197 to get away from Cael. Bansach moved to 190 after losing to Schultz. Kurdelmeier moved to 190 his junior year to get away from Hodge, then moved back down to 177 his senior year when he won the NCAA. Ned Blass a 2-time chsmp after losing badly to Hodge immediately moved to Hwt. (no 190 weight class then).

I am sure others can give other examples. I don't think Ruth surpasses Kemp. I will say it has been the Ed Ruth invitational since his sophomore year.

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I'm hoping that Stienhaus puts a dent in the Ruth legend. It's a longshot I know, and as the fund guys say I'll have to buy in to the "past performance is not an indicator of future results", but I'm not ready for a Ruth coronation this early in the season.

 

That said, I appreciate the opportunity to watch someone who is arguably one of the all time greats.

 

 

As close as a sure bet as Ruth appears to be - I agree, can't start giving out awards until it actually happens.

 

We only need to look at what happened at 141 a few weeks back

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I'm almost with MSU158 on this topic. I think Ruth is easily top 10 and arguably top 5, but it's hard for me to put him much higher than 5, if that.

 

I know we wrestle folkstyle in college, but Ruth hasn't done jack in freestyle, and when we're splitting hairs to place him above or below guys like Kemp, that bothers me. It's not a major factor, but when the comparisons get to be so close that we're talking about who took a redshirt and who didn't and where guys went to HS, it is another data point to consider. I wouldn't even care about anything other than folkstyle if Ruth's competition at 184 had been tougher, but I think BigApple is right--certainly not Ruth's fault, but quality of competition has to factor into the discussion somewhere.

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I'm almost with MSU158 on this topic. I think Ruth is easily top 10 and arguably top 5, but it's hard for me to put him much higher than 5, if that.

 

I know we wrestle folkstyle in college, but Ruth hasn't done jack in freestyle, and when we're splitting hairs to place him above or below guys like Kemp, that bothers me. It's not a major factor, but when the comparisons get to be so close that we're talking about who took a redshirt and who didn't and where guys went to HS, it is another data point to consider. I wouldn't even care about anything other than folkstyle if Ruth's competition at 184 had been tougher, but I think BigApple is right--certainly not Ruth's fault, but quality of competition has to factor into the discussion somewhere.

 

I got no problem putting Kemp above Ruth but let's not question Ruth's competition.

 

He moved up last year and beat the returning NCAA champ. And it's not like Bosak won an easy weight since he beat Q. Wright in the finals.

 

Steve Bosak

RObert Hamlin

Mack Lewnes

Chris Henrick

Nick Amuchastegui

 

And he made those wins look pretty easy.

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I didn't say Ruth's path has been a cakewalk. All I said was that when you're comparing him to the top 5'ish best of all time, quality of competition has to factor in. That's why the Hodge considers quality of competition, to help determine relative merit. How does Ruth's competition look relative to that of the other top 10 ever guys'?

 

I don't know the exact answer, I'm just asking the question. My hunch is it may be weaker, through no fault of Ruth in any way.

 

Also, in case it isn't clear from my previous posts, I'm a big fan of Ruth. I did say he is certainly in the top 10 of all time and possibly in the top 5. That's a pretty serious compliment.

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I didn't say Ruth's path has been a cakewalk. All I said was that when you're comparing him to the top 5'ish best of all time, quality of competition has to factor in. That's why the Hodge considers quality of competition, to help determine relative merit. How does Ruth's competition look relative to that of the other top 10 ever guys'?

 

I don't know the exact answer, I'm just asking the question. My hunch is it may be weaker, through no fault of Ruth in any way.

 

Also, in case it isn't clear from my previous posts, I'm a big fan of Ruth. I did say he is certainly in the top 10 of all time and possibly in the top 5. That's a pretty serious compliment.

 

Are you talking just folkstyle competition? If so he moved up and beat a returning NCAA champ. I'd rank Kemp higher but Kemp never did that.

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Yes, just folkstyle of course.

 

Ruth did go up to beat Bosak, but I'm not sure Bosak was tougher than, say, Kelly Ward, whom Kemp beat twice in the NCAA finals. Ward was a 3-time finalist and champ, and might have been in the discussion for top 10'ish himself had Kemp stayed at 150 after his freshman year.

 

These things are subjective to some degree. Bosak is obviously a very talented guy and absolutely qualifies as top competition by any standard. But that doesn't make all of Ruth's competition tougher than the other candidates for top 5 ever. I don't have all the stats in front of me. That would be quite a tedious exercise. But from my recollection, I'd say Kemp had tougher competition despite Bosak. I'm using Kemp as an example only because his name was brought up. Other guys of his caliber would need to be considered in the discussion too to determine who had the relatively tougher competition all four years.

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Ruth will be very high if he wins out. I'd place him ahead of many all timers, but not Kemp. Kemp has the edge based on 4 finals appearances and true freshman status. He was a true freshman in the finals while Ruth was a redshirt in the 3rd place match. Yes, a slight difference, but's that's all that it takes when it comes to the best of the best. Another interesting note for Kemp, he lost as a freshman on a referee's decision, not because he was outscored. Kemp had the only offensive points in the match but he didn't get the decision. Had Kemp been the returning AA upperclassmen, I believe he would have been given the win. For a sport that usually favors offensive production in tie breaker situations, the decision against Kemp really stands out.

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