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Ed Ruth all time

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Yes, just folkstyle of course.

 

Ruth did go up to beat Bosak, but I'm not sure Bosak was tougher than, say, Kelly Ward, whom Kemp beat twice in the NCAA finals. Ward was a 3-time finalist and champ, and might have been in the discussion for top 10'ish himself had Kemp stayed at 150 after his freshman year.

 

These things are subjective to some degree. Bosak is obviously a very talented guy and absolutely qualifies as top competition by any standard. But that doesn't make all of Ruth's competition tougher than the other candidates for top 5 ever. I don't have all the stats in front of me. That would be quite a tedious exercise. But from my recollection, I'd say Kemp had tougher competition despite Bosak. I'm using Kemp as an example only because his name was brought up. Other guys of his caliber would need to be considered in the discussion too to determine who had the relatively tougher competition all four years.

 

Like I said earlier I'm only 28 so I didn't get to see Kemp wrestle but I remember a lot of people thinking that Mack Lewnes and Robert Hamlin were definitely going to win NCAA titles at some point in thier careers.

 

And like I said Bosak beat Q. Wright in the finals and Wright bumped up to 197 last year and beat Kilgore who most thought was a lock for the title.

 

I really wish we could have seen Ruth wrestle Reader his sophmore year.

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Interested in seeing how others think Ruth would of done against M Schultz, E Banach, Alger, Melvin Douglas?

 

I suppose it depends which year of their careers. On average, I don't know about the other guys, but my money would be on Schultz versus Ruth. I think he's a bad style matchup for Ruth, very dominating from tie-ups and very physical overall.

 

That doesn't mean I think Schultz's career was better. This is just an opinion on how they'd do heads up at their respective college peaks.

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How would you guys compare Ruth to Ben Askren? I would favor Askren right now. Ben was ver dominant and has continued to take on all comers even though wrestling is not his focus now.

 

That being said, you have to think who you are bumping down to place someone that high on the all time great list.

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How would you guys compare Ruth to Ben Askren? I would favor Askren right now. Ben was ver dominant and has continued to take on all comers even though wrestling is not his focus now.

 

That being said, you have to think who you are bumping down to place someone that high on the all time great list.

 

I'd favor Ruth. I can't imagine Ben funking him. Ruth has very strong finishes and when on top he controls the hips very easily.

 

Ruth vs Schultz would be really interesting. From the matches I've seen Schultz was very aggressive and brutal but I don't know how that would play out against Ruth who gets to the legs very easily. I'd say that's a toss up.

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I think Ed might be slighted when people are comparing his competition. I have not seen anyone try to factor in how much the level of athletic ability and the quality of coaching in today's sports culture actually lends to it being more difficult to be head and shoulders above the competition. With the advent of youth wrestling clubs combined with technique being perfected and available via different media, sport in General is much more specialized.

 

Personally, I feel it is much more difficult to dominate in today's athletic environment!

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Agon

 

Ruth vs Askren

 

We can find out where Ruth stands against the best guy at this weight the last ten years. Askren is still in his prime and would do it in a heartbeat. And they are about the exact same size so this would be perfect. We know Ruth can not beat Cael-it is not even close according to what the PSU boards have said. Ruth is a all timer just not in that best of all time top tier. That is for guys like Cael, Uteke, maybe Kemp, Gable etc. Dake is NOT in there, sorry- he and Ruth, M Scultz , P Smith will be on the 2nd tier. 3rd tier, Askren, Varner, Taylor etc

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Agon

 

Ruth vs Askren

 

We can find out where Ruth stands against the best guy at this weight the last ten years. Askren is still in his prime and would do it in a heartbeat. And they are about the exact same size so this would be perfect. We know Ruth can not beat Cael-it is not even close according to what the PSU boards have said. Ruth is a all timer just not in that best of all time top tier. That is for guys like Cael, Uteke, maybe Kemp, Gable etc. Dake is NOT in there, sorry- he and Ruth, M Scultz , P Smith will be on the 2nd tier. 3rd tier, Askren, Varner, Taylor etc

 

Sometimes I wonder if you are being serious with your posts. A lot of your posts are filled with inaccurate information, and "out there" opinions.

 

How is Dake a tier below Kemp or Gable when it comes to ncaa wrestling? That doesn't make sense. And Pat Smith and Kemp's ncaa careers are basically identical except Pat won his freshman year in the finals. Smith would at least have to be on the same tier as those. Mark Schultz didn't place as a freshman, so he's definitely a notch below Dake and Pat.

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Or Askren could have shown up to to one of the open tournaments Ruth was at while on suspension if he wanted to prove himself. If Ruth finishes out unbeaten, he will be firmly ahead of Askren, with Ruth at #5-#8 and Askren around #11-#15. Ruth would beat him handily, ala Chris Pendelton if they met. Too strong, too quick, and too crisp for the funkmaster.

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I'm not sure Ruth would handle Askren easily. Look what Askren did to Hebert 2-3 years ago at the Midlands. Ruth's one loss in the NCAA was to a guy who was great with legs, so is Askren. I wouldn't try to pick a winner, but it would be wirth $50 on PPV just to watch it.

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Ruth will be very high if he wins out. I'd place him ahead of many all timers, but not Kemp. Kemp has the edge based on 4 finals appearances and true freshman status. He was a true freshman in the finals while Ruth was a redshirt in the 3rd place match. Yes, a slight difference, but's that's all that it takes when it comes to the best of the best. Another interesting note for Kemp, he lost as a freshman on a referee's decision, not because he was outscored. Kemp had the only offensive points in the match but he didn't get the decision. Had Kemp been the returning AA upperclassmen, I believe he would have been given the win. For a sport that usually favors offensive production in tie breaker situations, the decision against Kemp really stands out.

Yes, and it was a split referee's decision to boot. The rule was changed shortly thereafter - may have been the next year, IIRC.

.

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I'm not sure Ruth would handle Askren easily. Look what Askren did to Hebert 2-3 years ago at the Midlands. Ruth's one loss in the NCAA was to a guy who was great with legs, so is Askren. I wouldn't try to pick a winner, but it would be wirth $50 on PPV just to watch it.

 

Or even better yet, look what he did to Q weeks after Q won the 197 lb NCAAs over a very game Kilgore. Sure, it was under Agon rules, but did anyone who watched the match think Q would beat Askren, who hasn't been regularly training for wresting in a very long time, under any set of rules?

 

I wouldn't try to predict it either, but it would definitely not be an easy win for either guy.

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Or Askren could have shown up to to one of the open tournaments Ruth was at while on suspension if he wanted to prove himself. If Ruth finishes out unbeaten, he will be firmly ahead of Askren, with Ruth at #5-#8 and Askren around #11-#15. Ruth would beat him handily, ala Chris Pendelton if they met. Too strong, too quick, and too crisp for the funkmaster.

 

I wouldn't compare Ruth to Pendleton when it comes to finishing takedowns. Ruth is better at getting to the legs imo, but when it comes to finishing, Pendleton was at a higher level. Ruth often gets sloppy when he's looking to finish his takedowns. In his match against Iowa, he struggled a few times finishing against Lofthouse in situations where he should have scored. This is not just an off match either imo, but a regular problem. A problem that's only masked because of the average quality of D1 competition being low. I mentioned that if Ruth wrestles that way at trials, he will no doubt be sitting at home watching the world with the rest of us. Same with Taylor, who's decision win wasn't simply due to Moore's stalling like so many wanted to say.

 

Askren can definitely be beat by someone who finishes like Pendleton, but I'm not convinced that Ruth finishes like Pendleton. I believe another PA great, Greg Jones, would have handled Askren however.

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I'm not sure Ruth would handle Askren easily. Look what Askren did to Hebert 2-3 years ago at the Midlands. Ruth's one loss in the NCAA was to a guy who was great with legs, so is Askren. I wouldn't try to pick a winner, but it would be wirth $50 on PPV just to watch it.

 

Or even better yet, look what he did to Q weeks after Q won the 197 lb NCAAs over a very game Kilgore. Sure, it was under Agon rules, but did anyone who watched the match think Q would beat Askren, who hasn't been regularly training for wresting in a very long time, under any set of rules?

 

I wouldn't try to predict it either, but it would definitely not be an easy win for either guy.

 

Imo, the match with Q. Wright doesn't tell me much. I saw Wright get pinned at the all star meet by Wilps, a guy who is levels below Askren, last year. Wright seems to do his best wrestling in late season tournaments. I could see a lot of wrestlers beating a post season Wright.

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Taylor majored Moore, even with Moores unrelenting stalling.

 

You're right. My memory is already foggy less than a week or so later. I do disagree that Moore was unrelentingly stalling. Moore was able to slow him down in the ties. If Taylor wrestles the same way from the ties at the trials, he isn't coming close to the World team.

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Imo, the match with Q. Wright doesn't tell me much. I saw Wright get pinned at the all star meet by Wilps, a guy who is levels below Askren, last year. Wright seems to do his best wrestling in late season tournaments. I could see a lot of wrestlers beating a post season Wright.

 

Wright got pinned against Wilps because he took a big risk that didn't pan out. It wasn't like the match wasn't close before that. His match against Akren was very different. Askren took Wright to the woodshed and beat him silly. It was a systematic ass-kicking that lasted well beyond a regulation college match. And this wasn't just "offseason Askren", it was an Askren who was half a decade removed from his last competitive wrestling season effectively wrestling "up a weight" (maybe even two) against a bigger guy.

 

That match may not be totally representative of how Wright in March would've done against Askren in March at their respective college peaks, but it sure as hell did tell me something. I would bet a lot of money on Askren in any style, in season or not.

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Imo, the match with Q. Wright doesn't tell me much. I saw Wright get pinned at the all star meet by Wilps, a guy who is levels below Askren, last year. Wright seems to do his best wrestling in late season tournaments. I could see a lot of wrestlers beating a post season Wright.

 

Wright got pinned against Wilps because he took a big risk that didn't pan out. It wasn't like the match wasn't close before that. His match against Akren was very different. Askren took Wright to the woodshed and beat him silly. It was a systematic ass-kicking that lasted well beyond a regulation college match. And this wasn't just "offseason Askren", it was an Askren who was half a decade removed from his last competitive wrestling season effectively wrestling "up a weight" (maybe even two) against a bigger guy.

 

That match may not be totally representative of how Wright in March would've done against Askren in March at their respective college peaks, but it sure as hell did tell me something. I would bet a lot of money on Askren in any style, in season or not.

 

I disagree. Off season Wright and late season Wright are two different wrestlers almost imo. And Askren is a fighter who does train wrestling regularly, so it's not as if Askren was completely "cold" going into the match. When Askren left wrestlng, he was wrestling at a world class level. A level that Quentin Wright has not yet reached. I'm not surprised or impressed that Askren is technically superior to Wright. I expect that. Given that the match was post season, in an unfamiliar style makes it mean even less to me. I respect your opinion, but I'm not really moved by that match. I see a lot of wrestlers having a great chance of beating Wright under the same circumstances.

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Training for wrestling and training for MMA are very different. Ask Lance Palmer or any of the MMA guys who have been out of wrestling for even a couple of years what it's like to wrestle someone who is fresh off a championship season. The TDs you train are different, there is no mat wrestling or par terre wrestling training of any kind (unless you consider choking or pounding people from the mount mat wrestling), and the setups and reactions are different. This is not freestyle vs. folkstyle, it's a completely different sport altogether.

 

So the idea that Askren was somehow close to his wrestling peak is a joke. He wasn't, and he'll admit it himself as he has when people have asked him whether he'd ever come back to freestyle.

 

Also, had the Askren beating of Wright been an isolated incident, I might be more understanding of downplaying the absolute ass-kicking, but Askren did it to Herbert too, and that was when Herbert was significantly improved from his college peak, significantly bigger than when they met in college, and only a year after Herbert's world silver medal, when he was still actively training for international competition.

 

The point isn't whether Askren is better than Wright, but how much of a match he'd give Ruth. Big Apple posted that Askren would be close enough to not want to call an outcome, pointing to the Herbert beating as an example of what Askren could do against a bigger guy. I simply added that his even bigger ass-kicking of a significantly bigger Wright, fresh off his college peak season, was more evidence to consider for anyone writing Askren off.

 

But I guess there's no way to argue against an opinion that "a lot of wrestlers" can beat a 2x NCAA champ off-season.

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Lee Kemp is better than Ed Ruth.

 

Lee Kemp only had four years in wrestling before going into Wisconsin where he went to be a 4x finalist and 3x NCAA champ. He then beat Dan Gable. He went to be 3x world champion. He would have been a Olympic Champion easily if not for that boycott.

 

Think about it. Lee Kemp started to learn about wrestling DURING NINTH GRADE!!

 

Lee Kemp blow everyone out in learning curve.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Training for wrestling and training for MMA are very different. Ask Lance Palmer or any of the MMA guys who have been out of wrestling for even a couple of years what it's like to wrestle someone who is fresh off a championship season. The TDs you train are different, there is no mat wrestling or par terre wrestling training of any kind (unless you consider choking or pounding people from the mount mat wrestling), and the setups and reactions are different. This is not freestyle vs. folkstyle, it's a completely different sport altogether.

 

Yes, I know they are different. Although they are different, there is a lot of overlap. I disagree that it's completely different. Or worlds apart. Also I know Askren would say that he has wrestled folk after his ncaa career ended. I can ask Lance Palmer, but I can also ask many others who I'm sure would agree with me that there is a lot of overlap. For all I know, Palmer may agree with me. I haven't talked to Palmer in years. And do you know for sure if Askren hasn't wrestled folkstyle in the past year or two? Did he say that?

 

So the idea that Askren was somehow close to his wrestling peak is a joke. He wasn't, and he'll admit it himself as he has when people have asked him whether he'd ever come back to freestyle
.

 

I never said that Askren was close to his wrestling peak. I also don't think that's particularly relevant. When you have one wrestler who's reached a much higher level of wrestling, who's still in great shape wrestling a wrestler who hasn't achieved the same level, I don't believe peak level is needed.

 

Also, had the Askren beating of Wright been an isolated incident, I might be more understanding of downplaying the absolute ass-kicking, but Askren did it to Herbert too, and that was when Herbert was significantly improved from his college peak, significantly bigger than when they met in college, and only a year after Herbert's world silver medal, when he was still actively training for international competition
.

 

Askren's win over Herbert was nice, but it was simply an exhibition for the fans. That matchup had even less intensity than the average exhibition if you ask me. Herbert is too predictable, he fell for every piece of bait that Askren laid out for him. I give Askren credit for being savvy.

 

The point isn't whether Askren is better than Wright, but how much of a match he'd give Ruth. Big Apple posted that Askren would be close enough to not want to call an outcome, pointing to the Herbert beating as an example of what Askren could do against a bigger guy. I simply added that his even bigger ass-kicking of a significantly bigger Wright, fresh off his college peak season, was more evidence to consider for anyone writing Askren off.

 

Okay then. I'm just saying I'm not moved by Askren's win over Wright. I was adding my opinion to the matchup. I think Wright's performance against lesser wrestlers in exhibition matches is also evidence to consider. Wilps pinning Wright at the all star should also be considered imo.

 

But I guess there's no way to argue against an opinion that "a lot of wrestlers" can beat a 2x NCAA champ off-season.

 

You don't have to argue against it. I believe a lot of wresters are capable of beating Wright in a meaningless offseason matchup. You seem to disagree. That's okay.

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I do disagree with just about everything you said. You're not giving Askren enough credit and you're severely underestimating Wright if you think a lot of guys can beat him, off-season or not.

 

You also don't know much about MMA, no offense. Completely different sport. There's some overlap from wrestling to MMA for those who want to use a wrestling base to expand their skills beyond wrestling, but not nearly as much the other way around, meaning, when you're talking about elite wrestling competition, MMA is just not adequate training, period. It's like saying that greco training is enough to adequately prepare someone for folkstyle, but even farther removed. Almost everything changes when you can kick, punch, or knee someone in the face.

 

But whatever. This thread is about Ruth.

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I do disagree with just about everything you said. You're not giving Askren enough credit and you're severely underestimating Wright if you think a lot of guys can beat him, off-season or not.

 

You also don't know much about MMA, no offense. Completely different sport. There's some overlap from wrestling to MMA for those who want to use a wrestling base to expand their skills beyond wrestling, but not nearly as much the other way around, meaning, when you're talking about elite wrestling competition, MMA is just not adequate training, period. It's like saying that greco training is enough to adequately prepare someone for folkstyle, but even farther removed. Almost everything changes when you can kick, punch, or knee someone in the face.

 

But whatever. This thread is about Ruth.

 

 

You're entirely wrong about my knowledge of MMA. Many fighters would say there is a ton of overlap. I'm specifically talking about the way many of the fighters train. I know fighters, I've been asked to help coach at a jiu jitsu/mma gym, although admittedly not at the highest of levels. Also, it's often the case that former wrestlers do wrestle folkstyle/freestye with other wrestlers as a type of cross training. I've been around wrestling and martial arts for a very long time. Long before it was called MMA. Although there are a ton of differences, there are many similarities that are downplayed.

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Of course there are some similarities. That's why wrestlers in general dominate the MMA rankings.

 

But you don't train MMA to train for a high-level wrestling match. I don't care how many gyms you were invited to coach at, that's nonsense. NCAA champions need to train for freestyle before they feel their most competitive in a sport that has 10x the crossover from folkstyle when compared to MMA. MMA to folkstyle? Worlds apart in comparison.

 

We weren't talking about whether wrestling skills were applicable to MMA. We were talking about Ben Askren being half a decade removed from competitive wrestling. I don't care if he trains folkstyle every day to crosstrain for his real job, which is MMA. That's type of preparation pales in comparison to that of an NCAA champion coming off his folkstyle peak out of the nation's hands-down top folkstyle wrestling program.

 

If Q turning into a pumpkin that everyone can beat on after March is a factor, then Ben's lack of wrestling focus for longer than Q's entire college career is also a factor.

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But you don't train MMA to train for a high-level wrestling match. I don't care how many gyms you were invited to coach at, that's nonsense. NCAA champions need to train for freestyle before they feel their most competitive in a sport that has 10x the crossover from folkstyle when compared to MMA. MMA to folkstyle? Worlds apart in comparison.

 

I agree with much of what you say, but I don't see the relevance to my position. Yes, there is a much bigger difference between folkstyle and mma than there is between folk and freestyle. I agree. I disagree that this has much to do with what I've been saying.

 

We weren't talking about whether wrestling skills were applicable to MMA. We were talking about Ben Askren being half a decade removed from competitive wrestling. I don't care if he trains folkstyle every day to crosstrain for his real job, which is MMA. That's type of preparation pales in comparison to that of an NCAA champion coming off his folkstyle peak out of the nation's hands-down top folkstyle wrestling program.

 

I'm saying because Ben has, in the past, reached a much higher level of wrestling than Wright, the everyday focused folkstyle training becomes less important. It takes a while to lose all that skill. As long as he's in top shape, he, or anyone else in his situation should do just fine.

 

If Q turning into a pumpkin that everyone can beat on after March is a factor, then Ben's lack of wrestling focus for longer than Q's entire college career is also a factor.

 

Okay then. I don't see it as much of a factor though. Well, at least not as much of factor as you are making it out to be.

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