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Sheerstress

Weidman retains title

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We can see it with boxing, they go through very hard training at a young age for boxing and are always sparing with each other yet they are not nearly as well prepared for MMA as wrestlers... as we can see in the results.

With all due respect, that is not a fair comparison. perhaps the best boxer to ever take MMA seriously was Marcus Davis and he was a mediocre boxer at best. Top level boxers do not enter MMA (and why would they?) unless their past their prime and just doing it for a quick pay check. Wrestling is different because many elite wrestlers will be somewhat irrelevant beginning at age 22 and even if they aren't, there is little financial payoff.

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It's the mental toughness that wrestling teaches, plus the "grappling strength" that makes wrestlers so good in MMA. All of those hellacious practices that we all know about, and using good technique when you are dead tired, makes it easy to pick up techniques from various other martial arts and employ them in a competitive situation. Add that fact to years and years of hard grappling, which gives you a type of strength that you can't get by lifting weights, and you have a very good base for MMA. This is why we have the most champs and top 10 contenders with a wrestling base. IMO and most experts it's the best base.

You could argue BJJ, but they never go through practices like we do, and when they get to the higher levels the pace slows down so much in sparring and competition due to a high level of technique and most don't build that insane grappling strength I'm talking about. It's just a completely different style and way of grappling when compared to wrestling. There is no hand fighting, banging on the head, and very little explosion all together. Teach a wrestler some BJJ and he becomes awesome in a fight. Teach a BJJ guy some wrestling and he is still just a BJJ guy who knows a few takedowns at a high school wrestling level in a fight.

Anyways, this is why wrestlers dominate MMA!

 

 

I largely agree with you. The thing that gets me though with BJJ, is that they can do just about everything that fokstyle wrestlers do in their own sport. They could expand the style so that's it's more physical an includes "banging on the head", tough hand fighting and a higher level of conditioning overall. Imo, BJJ instructors should try to add many of the things learned in folk/free/Greco and add them to BJJ. I'm confident I could take many wrestlers with very little bjj experience could do well at some pretty tough tournaments. The wrestling ability of the average BJJ fighter is very bad.

 

With that said, I think it's very arguable that a distinction needs to be made when discussing the best base for MMA. Wrestling may simply be the best because of the way it is commonly taught, but that may not make it inherently better than BJJ. If BJJ was taught in a way that it added most of the effective elements you find in folk/free/Greco wouldn't it better than wrestling? You can add a ton of wrestling to BJJ without violating the nature of the sport, but on the flip side, can you do the same for wrestling? Most elements of BJJ couldn't legally be added to wrestling.

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MMA is extremely popular and how many boxers are making really all that much money? Maybe the big big stars in boxing make obscene amounts but that is the exception to the average "top end" boxer. Look at the trajectory of popularity for MMA vs. Boxing. I believe they're fortunes are almost directly inverse to each other.

 

Do you really think boxers will do better than kickboxers have in MMA? I don't at all. They are VERY good at their one aspect of the game but I have seen nothing that says to me that boxers would adapt to the wrestling/BJJ/getting kicked in the head parts of MMA that are so foreign to them.

 

Not to mention the concussion dangers present in boxing that will be far more rare in MMA. Boxers have NO choice but to stand there and get their brains rattled back and forth for long fights with large gloves. In MMA you can take one good hit and either knock your opponent out or you get taken down/ submitted ending the brain assault. This new* focus on concussions in football will (in my opinion) speed up the decline of boxing leading to a vacuum for MMA to enter.

 

superold - Elements of BJJ could be added to wrestling just like the reverse is possible. Though in the case of wrestling is would be more like "re-added" as they were included long ago when the sport was "catch wrestling".

 

 

Edited*

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From Hendricks through Cain we could own the middle through Heavyweight titles.

 

Demetrius Johnson (125# champ) and Dominick Cruz (135# champ) were high school wrestlers. If Cruz beats Barao on February 1, and if Hendricks beats Lawler on March 15, American wrestlers will be champs at every men's weight except 145 and 155.

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I disagree. With a Gi on, which is how most Bjj schools require you to start out with until you reach a certain level, there is no way you are going to see much hand fighting, head snaps, etc. You are going to see grabbing the gi and trying to clear arms so that they can advance thier position. So for the first six months

to a year that is what they are learning. Then, when their instructor thinks they are ready, if they choose, they can try no gi. Since in BJJ being on bottom can be just as beneficial as top, even in no-Gi, they usually do not waste time standing, and if they do you don't see much hand fighting because for the first six months to a year they were grabbing Gi and trying to clear hands. Even most of the good MMA fighters with a BJJ base still claim they spend about half their time training with Gi and half no-Gi. I have heard this from the likes of Fabricio Werdum, Roger Gracie, Gabriel Gonzaga, etc.

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Agree 100% Matburn. Something about the grind of wrestling an actively resisting opponent day in and day creates a strength that is perfect for MMA and not able to be replicated any other way.

 

We can see it with boxing, they go through very hard training at a young age for boxing and are always sparing with each other yet they are not nearly as well prepared for MMA as wrestlers... as we can see in the results.

 

The USA wrestling tattoo on Weidman's shoulder definitely helps reinforce the message ;).

 

Wrestling got really lucky with the emergence of MMA. The original idea behind MMA came from the Gracie family. They wanted guys from different disciplines (who did not have much exposure to other disciplines) to fight each other with no rules. The hoped to prove that BJJ was the best fighting style.

 

What happened was the sport caught some interest, and then evolved beyond their vision. Through trial and error, MMA fighters discovered the best base for MMA was wrestling, with the other disciplines being apps added to the wrestling base. An elite wrestler with good dirty boxing and solid submission counters can be a UFC champ. These days, you can't say that about any other elite discipline practitioner. By and large, the elite MMA fighters who come from other disciplines cannot go far with just merely good wrestling ability. They have to develop the ability to stop elite-level takedowns, as well as the ability to take elite-level wrestlers down. In other words, they have to develop a wrestling base.

 

Elite wrestlers in particular do well in MMA because they have a good base to begin with, as well as other qualities. They are used to the lifestyle of training hard, eating right, and making weight. They are also used to one-on-one competition where the consequences are very personal. Finally, they have been tested and moved up the ranks on the basis of how good they are, not how long they've trained. D1 all americans are basically at the leading edge of a pool of wrestlers that began in high school, and that pool numbers in the hundreds of thousands.

 

All in all, MMA is great for college wrestling.

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Agree 100% Matburn. Something about the grind of wrestling an actively resisting opponent day in and day creates a strength that is perfect for MMA and not able to be replicated any other way.

 

We can see it with boxing, they go through very hard training at a young age for boxing and are always sparing with each other yet they are not nearly as well prepared for MMA as wrestlers... as we can see in the results.

 

The USA wrestling tattoo on Weidman's shoulder definitely helps reinforce the message ;).

 

What decent prime boxers really go to MMA, they usually stick to pro boxing? I do agree about how wrestling is great for MMA though. And sure boxing is not gonna get them as well rounded for MMA than as a wrestler. I just want to know some of these "results". I would love to see a world class fighter in his prime fight an top MMA guy.

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The results that show wrestling having such a large percentage of the champions/depth in the MMA ranks despite going up against large numbers of BJJs/kickboxers/freestyle fighters.

 

Wrestling is the most successful style for MMA with BJJ being a close second as far as numbers and history goes. I do not believe that Boxers after they inevitably join en masse which will happen (see trajectory of popularity vs. MMA) will be any more successful than kickboxers or Muy Thai fighters have been. In my personal opinion they will do even worse than the other two striking disciplines mentioned.

 

Boxing is still popular and demands an extreme amount of hard work/ athleticism to be successful but I think that the writing is on the wall for it to be supplanted by MMA as the true fighting art.

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I disagree. With a Gi on, which is how most Bjj schools require you to start out with until you reach a certain level, there is no way you are going to see much hand fighting, head snaps, etc. You are going to see grabbing the gi and trying to clear arms so that they can advance thier position. So for the first six months

to a year that is what they are learning. Then, when their instructor thinks they are ready, if they choose, they can try no gi. Since in BJJ being on bottom can be just as beneficial as top, even in no-Gi, they usually do not waste time standing, and if they do you don't see much hand fighting because for the first six months to a year they were grabbing Gi and trying to clear hands. Even most of the good MMA fighters with a BJJ base still claim they spend about half their time training with Gi and half no-Gi. I have heard this from the likes of Fabricio Werdum, Roger Gracie, Gabriel Gonzaga, etc.

 

You miss my point. I'm saying you could get rid of the Gi, or deemphasize it. There are NO GI competitions. Most schools may start out with the Gi, but they do not have to. Theoretically, they could start NO GI and simply teach a style of BJJ that incorporates all that makes wrestling effective. They could add a ton of wrestling skills to BJJ without violating the rules of the sport.

 

Most BJJ based fighters may split training time with Gi on/Gi off, but how is that at all relevant to my point? They don't have to, that's merely their choice. Your post doesn't accurately address how a more wrestling centered style of BJJ could not work. You really only explain why it doesn't currently exist.

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MMA is extremely popular and how many boxers are making really all that much money? Maybe the big big stars in boxing make obscene amounts but that is the exception to the average "top end" boxer. Look at the trajectory of popularity for MMA vs. Boxing. I believe they're fortunes are almost directly inverse to each other.

 

Do you really think boxers will do better than kickboxers have in MMA? I don't at all. They are VERY good at their one aspect of the game but I have seen nothing that says to me that boxers would adapt to the wrestling/BJJ/getting kicked in the head parts of MMA that are so foreign to them.

 

Not to mention the concussion dangers present in boxing that will be far more rare in MMA. Boxers have NO choice but to stand there and get their brains rattled back and forth for long fights with large gloves. In MMA you can take one good hit and either knock your opponent out or you get taken down/ submitted ending the brain assault. This new* focus on concussions in football will (in my opinion) speed up the decline of boxing leading to a vacuum for MMA to enter.

 

 

 

superold - Elements of BJJ could be added to wrestling just like the reverse is possible. Though in the case of wrestling is would be more like "re-added" as they were included long ago when the sport was "catch wrestling".

 

 

Edited*

 

 

Because there is competition between boxing promoters and sanctioning organizations, there is still significantly more money even in the mid-levels of professional boxing than there is in the highest tiers of MMA. A boxer will be paid more for a mid-level undercard fight on PPV than Weidman was paid last night, and there is no potential for the multimillion dollar single-fight paydays that exist in boxing. Guys fighting out of the UFC monopoly make peanuts. No quality boxer would ever consider doing MMA for the money in the present market.

 

I'm not certain the concussive injury problem really matters. People knew boxing could make you punchy 100 years ago. It's no secret. Unlike the NFL, boxing doesn't have a union that will make b.s. claims about patently obvious potential for injuries. Boxing is like cigarettes - everyone knows it can hurt or kill them, and a certain percentage of the population won't ever care. On the other hand, MMA is a young sport where, in my opinion, the risks of concussive injury have been understated due to comparisons to boxing. I think within 10 years the data will show that MMA poses significant concussive injury problems. Not on the level of boxing, but significant.

 

No doubt the way wrestlers train and their skill set is much more conducive to making a crossover to MMA than the boxing training and skillset.

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Hendricks, Weidman, Jones, and Cain would most likely destroy your boxers in a boxing match. They are the baddest guys on the planet.

 

 

I don't know if you mean elite level boxers, but Andre Ward would maul Johny in a boxing match.

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Education - I like your point about how to move up the ranks in wrestling is directly applicable to MMA. In karate, BJJ, Judo, etc you are viewed and ranked largely on your "belt" which means simply the length of time competing and your trainers opinion of you.

 

In wrestling you have to earn every accomplishment/ & move up in rank by proving you are better than the other guys. it is unique in martial arts and a big part of MMA.

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Doc - I disagree on the concussive risk to MMA competitors. The brain damage doesn't come from getting knocked out, it comes from high impact collisions that cause the brain to bang back and forth causing micro tears and bleeding. Unless we're talking about MMA guys who compete long past their prime and focus solely on striking, the risk (again in my opinion only) will be relatively minimal.

 

You are totally right that people have known about the effects of boxing for 100 years + but there has never been the widespread fear of traumatic brain injuries in sport that we are seeing today with football. This look at football will eventually lead the public to remember what happened to Mohammad Ali and others... this will affect what sport parents allow their kids to compete in.

 

The money is the big difference maker right now making boxers not give MMA a shot so our sample size is limited for comparison. This will change as boxing continues losing fans to MMA and new promoters like Bellator stay in business. Just look at kids in middle/high school wearing MMA gear like affliction or tap out vs. kids rocking Manny Pacquio (or whatever) t-shirts.

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Husky,

 

It seems to me, that MMA is missing a key something that may never allow the sport to produce fights that will excite the masses like Mayweather/Canelo, or Mayweather/Pacquiao if it were to happen. Maybe that will change, but I'm not so sure.

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I think MMA fights are far more exciting than Boxing.

 

The amount of new fans coming to MMA from Boxing says to me that they will soon be the ones putting on those mass appeal pop culture type fights. If that has not already happened. In the USA anyway MMA has already supplanted Boxing in the minds of most fight fans.

 

There was a ton of talk about Jon Jones vs. Gustavson in the "normal" media and that's just the most recent example.

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I think MMA fights are far more exciting than Boxing.

 

The amount of new fans coming to MMA from Boxing says to me that they will soon be the ones putting on those mass appeal pop culture type fights. If that has not already happened. In the USA anyway MMA has already supplanted Boxing in the minds of most fight fans.

 

There was a ton of talk about Jon Jones vs. Gustavson in the "normal" media and that's just the most recent example.

 

But is MMA more exciting than boxing to the casual fan? I don't think I can honestly say that. There's seems to be something more aesthetically pleasing about boxing to the casual fans that I know.

 

Has MMA ever had mega fights that sold millions of PPV buys? Like the Mayweather, Tyson, and Leonard fights in boxing? Are you sure that MMA has supplanted boxing in the minds of most fight fans in the U.S.? Do you have any data to support that?

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Superold i think i understand. It wouldn't be BJJ anymore. When BJJ guys start learning takedowns and how to stay off their back they are cross training. A metaphor: tae-kwon-do kicks are done with the foot and the heel and are aimed at the head and midsection. Now let's say Muay Thai fighter enters a tae-kwon-do tournament and starts kicking people in the leg with his shin. Do the rules allow it? Yes. Is it still tae-kwon-do? No. The same is true with BJJ. Many of them have picked up things from wrestling. However, a blast double is a wrestling move in any forum, and somewhere along the line that person, or his teacher cross trained and learned some wrestling.

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I think MMA fights are far more exciting than Boxing.

 

The amount of new fans coming to MMA from Boxing says to me that they will soon be the ones putting on those mass appeal pop culture type fights. If that has not already happened. In the USA anyway MMA has already supplanted Boxing in the minds of most fight fans.

 

There was a ton of talk about Jon Jones vs. Gustavson in the "normal" media and that's just the most recent example.

 

But is MMA more exciting than boxing to the casual fan? I don't think I can honestly say that. There's seems to be something more aesthetically pleasing about boxing to the casual fans that I know.

 

Has MMA ever had mega fights that sold millions of PPV buys? Like the Mayweather, Tyson, and Leonard fights in boxing? Are you sure that MMA has supplanted boxing in the minds of most fight fans in the U.S.? Do you have any data to support that?

 

what is your data that supports boxing is at all relevant beyond mayweather/pacquiao? what is the last boxing mega fight that had millions of PPV? you do know Tysopn and Leonard stop boxing before millions of MMA fans were born? how many people are buying boxing related merchandise and wearing it in high school? how many blogs are there devoted to boxing? do you have any other evidence besides anecdotal observations from the retirement community? is it fun asking multiple questions in every post and never being satisfied with the responses you get? is it because youve already made up your mind and dont care what the other posters have to say? how is the bingo hall these days?

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Superold i think i understand. It wouldn't be BJJ anymore. When BJJ guys start learning takedowns and how to stay off their back they are cross training. A metaphor: tae-kwon-do kicks are done with the foot and the heel and are aimed at the head and midsection. Now let's say Muay Thai fighter enters a tae-kwon-do tournament and starts kicking people in the leg with his shin. Do the rules allow it? Yes. Is it still tae-kwon-do? No. The same is true with BJJ. Many of them have picked up things from wrestling. However, a blast double is a wrestling move in any forum, and somewhere along the line that person, or his teacher cross trained and learned some wrestling.

 

Would it not be BJJ anymore, or would it not be BJJ as it's normally taught? BJJ guys have been learning takedowns for a long time, it's just that they just aren't good at it compared to wrestlers. Likewise, BJJ guys do learn to stay off their backs too. Yes, there is a strong emphasis on grappling off your back, but they do also learn skills to stay off their backs just in case a situation arises where it's dangerous for them to be in that position. And blast doubles are also done in BJJ.

 

I think a better analogy would be the old Oklahoma State wrestling teams who introduced the "takem down, let'em up" strategy. Before they introduced this style, wrestling mostly took place on the mat. Obviously takedowns existed, but it wasn't emphasized like it now is today. Similarly, BJJ mostly takes place on the mat, but it can be changed so that there's more emphasis on the neutral position. A position that already exists in the sport.

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Hendricks, Weidman, Jones, and Cain would most likely destroy your boxers in a boxing match. They are the baddest guys on the planet.

 

 

I don't know if you mean elite level boxers, but Andre Ward would maul Johny in a boxing match.

 

He must mean destroy boxers (including the best ones) in a fight. Its foolish to think these guys can beat the best boxers in boxing. They'd be picked apart

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay-per-view

 

Some information there, although I'm not vouching for accuracy of all the numbers. UFC and boxing are both selling well on PPV. There's room for both sports, at least currently. MMA probably has supplanted boxing amongst casual fans, but there are a LOT of hardcore boxing fans out there and they buy PPV fights. Also, boxing is a religion in Mexico and that is a huge market that will provide great PPV buys for popular Mexican fighters for years to come. Some people think that Argentina is going to become a similar market.

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