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Gizoni vs Crossface Cradle

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Jordan Oliver and Ed Ruth both dominated wrestlers with the crossface cradle. Taylor Walsh at Indiana is doing something similar into what I'd call a barbed wire.

 

My question is when the bottom man isn't broken down why aren't they using the Gizoni? Jeff Callard at OU used it the time and was able to "force" the top man to reach over the near arm. He usually got a reversal. I was taught it was a viloation of position to be over the near arm if the bottom man wasn't broken down. I am a big fan of using the crossface cradle, but only after the bottom man is broken down. DAA and Pat Milkovich and any others what's your input?

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Ruth is using a cradle ride when he hits his cross face. He usually has the near ankle hooked and is pinching his knees together (one in front of his opponents thigh and one behind his rear) to hold his opponent's hips in place. This allows him to cross face freely because his opponent is unable to clear his hips. Oliver does the same thing except he often will use an inside foot leg ride to flatten his opponent out before using the pressure to lock up his cradle.

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Jordan Oliver and Ed Ruth both dominated wrestlers with the crossface cradle. Taylor Walsh at Indiana is doing something similar into what I'd call a barbed wire.

 

My question is when the bottom man isn't broken down why aren't they using the Gizoni? Jeff Callard at OU used it the time and was able to "force" the top man to reach over the near arm. He usually got a reversal. I was taught it was a viloation of position to be over the near arm if the bottom man wasn't broken down. I am a big fan of using the crossface cradle, but only after the bottom man is broken down. DAA and Pat Milkovich and any others what's your input?

 

Can you enlighten me and explain what a 'Gizoni' is?

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1. you need to get your body directly under your opponent. This can be in a very compact squat back stance. or in a pivot sit out position. If you are in a squat back stance you want your laces flat on the mat.

 

2. Your elbows need to be tight against the sides of your torso, to prevent the opponent from reaching under either arm.

 

3. In many cases your opponent will reach over the near arm, or you can force him to reach over it by driving your arm under and hooking it in the crook of your elbow. While you are doing this keep moving back into the opponent. If the opponent is directly behind you in a "Crab Ride" position, you can force under either arm.

 

4. Once you have the arm hooked, you want to raise up your upper body (if you are in a squat back stance).

 

5. Throw your hand over your head, which will pull your opponent's upper body across your upper body at a 45-degrees angle.

 

6. Post your other hand to the mat for support.

 

7. Throw both of your feet our as far as possible under your should of the arm which you hooked your opponent's arm. This will normally place you on your hip.

 

8. Continue backing out the rest of your body towards your feet until you are clear of your opponent.

 

This is a pre-planned move on bottom if in a squat back stance. It scan be a reactionary move if in the sit out position.

 

If I was coaching a wrestler who would face Ed Ruth or Taylor Walsh this move would be drilled to perfection in practice, and planned for execution in a match. It is a definite improvement over what opponent's have been doing. Now I didn't see Gabe Dean's match against Ed Ruth, maybe he got a reversal using a Gizoni.

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Sit outs and sit back based moves against someone like Ruth is a recipe for disaster. Cradle guys aren't going to reach over you in that spot, they are going to crunch you. Dean beat Ruth because he out wrestled him from neutral. If you get two takedowns on Ruth (obviously easier said than done) all the Gizonis in the world don't matter.

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If you get in a low squat back stance with the laces flat you can "force" a wrestler on top to either reach over your arm or "cut you. Jeff Callard was a 3-time AA at OU. When he was a junior he defeated Ron Ray the OSU 167 pounder in both Bedlam duals and the Big 8. Next year Ray won the NCAA championship at 167, he was built similar to Ed Ruth. Jeff had a fireplug type build. Today he is a petroleum engineering professor at OU. We were discussing this technique at an alumni dinner with Michael Lightner OU assistant. Lightner thought you'd post out. Jeff said no, bring your elbows in close and in some cases put them on your thighs, scoot back into the top man. i watched Jeff all four years, this was all he used on bottom, i don't remember seeing him getting ridden. The spring after his freshman year hevwould rotate in with Tommy Evans wrestling with Wayne Wells. Everytime Wells attempted a chickenwing Jeff would Gizoni out. Of course Wayne went on to win the 1972 Olympics at 163.5 pounds that summer, so this was a top level wrestler Jeff was successful with the move against. If the top man can't pickup your ankle and you keep a compact position on bottom you'll be successsful against most any wrestler.

 

Port Robertson told me he asked Tony Gizoni to show him what he was doing. Port said he perfected it, but named it after him. He said the only thing wrong with the move was you had to be down to work it. He said Billy Borders NCAA champ and Jack Blubaugh (Doug's older brother) would deliberately get taken down so they could work it.

 

Stan Abel showed me how he used it in a standing position. If he couldn't immediately break the opponent's grip, he'd drop his hips and push the opponent's hands as far out as he could, then he'd slide a hand under the grip as he quickly brought his hips back a little to clear space. Once his elbow was under the forearm of the opponent he'd execute a standing Gizoni for an escape. He said he used it many times in college.

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Sit outs and sit back based moves against someone like Ruth is a recipe for disaster. Cradle guys aren't going to reach over you in that spot, they are going to crunch you. Dean beat Ruth because he out wrestled him from neutral. If you get two takedowns on Ruth (obviously easier said than done) all the Gizonis in the world don't matter.

 

Exactly. I was taught this way and I was never, ever hit in a gizoni from a sitout. When you crunch them up, you get a half second or so shot at that cradle. Guys who are really long and fast like Ruth get way more chances because do you honestly think a guy can hit a full gizoni faster than a guy like Ruth can lock his hands?

 

With the athletic level of wrestlers in todays era of wrestling, there is a reason why many guys do not sit out underneath certain guys. Moves today need to be much faster and concise. They athletic ability to scramble with a ton of speed in the modern era dwarfs that of pre 80's college wrestling.

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I rarely see someone put their chest on the back of someone's head, which is the most effective way to counter a pivot sitout. Most of the time on a pivot sitout you will take to hands on one, post it to the mat. Then sheer away the other arm while you hip heist for an escape. However, you can force an arm under for a Gizoni, but of course you would keep hold of that arm with your other hand to prevent a cradle being lockedcup.

 

Don't try to tell athletes from decades ago aren't as quick as todays. Quickness is in the genes. Gray Simons, Uetake, John Smith were as quick as any of todays wrestlers.

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Just Gizoni him. Is easy!

 

 

Ruth locks up a high percentage, if not a majority, of his cradles in the neutral position. His length, leverage, strength and quickness enable him to utilize the cradle in situations where most others can't or don't (such as when his opponent is defending a single leg). The guy is just extremely dangerous. Sure, the Gizoni is a potential weapon against him. It's a potential weapon against anyone. But it's not going to solve Ed Ruth. You have to beat him in neutral and ride him, like Dean did.

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Sit outs and sit back based moves against someone like Ruth is a recipe for disaster. Cradle guys aren't going to reach over you in that spot, they are going to crunch you. Dean beat Ruth because he out wrestled him from neutral. If you get two takedowns on Ruth (obviously easier said than done) all the Gizonis in the world don't matter.

Exactly. I was taught this way and I was never, ever hit in a gizoni from a sitout. When you crunch them up, you get a half second or so shot at that cradle. Guys who are really long and fast like Ruth get way more chances because do you honestly think a guy can hit a full gizoni faster than a guy like Ruth can lock his hands?

 

With the athletic level of wrestlers in todays era of wrestling, there is a reason why many guys do not sit out underneath certain guys. Moves today need to be much faster and concise. They athletic ability to scramble with a ton of speed in the modern era dwarfs that of pre 80's college wrestling.

 

 

Holy cow - from your post, it appears that wrestlers didn't get quick until the 80's. You do know that pre-80's wrestlers were able to scramble concisely with a ton of speed, right?

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Use any move you like, just make it work. The wrestler doing the technique will always be *WAY* more important than the technique the wrestler is using.

 

Find me some big, bad, gizoni hitting stud that is a better wrestler than Ruth, and I'm sure his move will work just fine.

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Most of the cross-face cradles I see don't have the bottom man broken down. He's usually posted up on his far leg to keep from being driven over with the crossface and a near leg lift. This is part of what sets up the crossface cradle lock-up.....the guy bracing with his far leg, exposing the knee.

 

Also, he's usually got his head down and there's no room or ability for him to sit underneath to get upright.

 

I think a better question is why don't those wrestlers learn to "unthread" the cross face grip on their far triceps? If the top guy hits your left triceps for the cross face anchor, you need to instantly "thread" your left hand/forearm underneath and around his (right) elbow in a counterclockwise circular motion, and then straighten your left arm, which will cause his grip to slip off. Its a counter intuitive reaction, so it has to be practiced. If you "post" on the arm he attacks, he'll pull it under and get it extended, at which point you can't get it threaded through and you're in trouble.

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I totally agree that Ed Ruth is stud, but who can be beaten as Gabe Dean proved last week. I hit more cradles from a front headlock than any other place, but I do hit them from on top. My point was that if a guy is hitting just one go to move on top, such as a crossface cradle a smart coach/wrestler should be looking for away to take that away.

 

Look what Greg Strobel had Chirs Vitale do against Mark Smith several years ago. Strobel noted on film that it was the 3rd tapping of his front foot that Mark Smith would shoot. Strobel instructed Vitale to shoot on Mark when he tapped the mat with his front foot that 3rd time. I'm a big believer in watching film to figure out exactly what a wrestler is doing.

 

As an illustration I was assisting Lee Roy Smith with a clinic for the Canadians at the 1993 World Freestyle Chsmpionships in Toronto. I told Lee Roy that was the single biggest new thing I'd learned since I'd left OU in 1974 that it wasn't taught. Lee Roy said we didn't know this until the late 1970s. Finally USA wrestling coaches broke down film of the Soviets to figure out why we couldn't get in on them. Lee Roy learned it and taught it to John who became a master of head position. I am continually amazed at the number of college wrestlers who wrestle from an ear to ear tieup. That is something I preach to wrestlers I coach from day one and continually after to never do.

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The higher the level, the bigger the importance of "chain wrestling" becomes. I don't care what move it is, or who uses it, it is rare that a first attempt move is executed from beginning to end without morphing into a different move.

 

A high crotch morphs into a double leg almost every time it is finally a takedown. Sitouts, Gizoni's, granbys, cutbacks and other variations of non stand-up escapes most often create the SEPARATION needed as the top guy follows to allow for the Stand-up to finally execute the escape. Etc. etc. etc.

 

I can go down the list but a move, even if executed perfectly, is still NOT a perfect move. Great coaches teach moves for every situation, the best coaches teach wrestlers how to "feel" the situations. Just because it LOOKS like a move is there does NOT mean it is there.

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Holy cow - from your post, it appears that wrestlers didn't get quick until the 80's. You do know that pre-80's wrestlers were able to scramble concisely with a ton of speed, right?

 

Yeah, you are right. Statistically, wrestling is the only sport where measurable athletic statistics have remained the same......

 

I wonder if you think the track athletes and strength athletes were just as good as today's as well?

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Ruth is using a cradle ride when he hits his cross face. He usually has the near ankle hooked and is pinching his knees together (one in front of his opponents thigh and one behind his rear) to hold his opponent's hips in place. This allows him to cross face freely because his opponent is unable to clear his hips. Oliver does the same thing except he often will use an inside foot leg ride to flatten his opponent out before using the pressure to lock up his cradle.

 

This. The question was answered in the first reply. It is very difficult to gizoni someone who has the leg hooked and is in a good cradle ride position. Yes, technique and athleticism has come a long way since the 80s, so not everything works the same way. This is not to discount the great wrestlers of the past. There is still a lot to learn from them, but like everything else, wrestling advances with time

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Old Dirty there is a difference between speed and quickness. Some big football linemen have a great first step because of quickness, yet have slow 40-yard dash times. You are either born with fast twitch muscles or you aren't. Quickness isn't something you can teach. Now you can improve thtough drills reaction to exploding on the whistle.

 

Danny Hodge who admittedly a physical freak can still crush an apple at 81. There are others with strong grips, my late father could crimp sheets of aluminum with just his thumb and index finger. He had the biggest thumb i've ever seen. Yes overall through modern training techniques today's athletes can lift more and run faster. However, we've never seen someone come along with comparable grip strength of Hodge. Of course he did specific exercises to develop his hand strength, but even he admits he was born with an extradordinary grip.

 

Don't forget if one wrestler is quicker than a wrestler of several decades ago, that perhaps his opponent is also quicker. As Pat Milkovich said the position of arms and legs attached to the torso hasn't changed, so moves that worked 50 years ago should work today. It always comes down to getting your opponent out of position.

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As Pat Milkovich said the position of arms and legs attached to the torso hasn't changed, so moves that worked 50 years ago should work today. It always comes down to getting your opponent out of position.

 

This is patently false. From personal experice, I know that we don't finish at the Iranian, single-leg on the mat, low single-leg, sit-out or defend leg-riding the same way that we did 10-15 years ago. I coach youth wrestling, and every week I have to explain to a parent that "we don't do it that way anymore because of XYZ." We used to pop up as tall as possible to finish the Iranian before, but today's wrestlers grab ankles. Now we show hide your ankles, or even better, sit out with it. We used to sit-out as throw your feet in front of you, but today's wrestlers crab ride. No we show push back into a short sit out, to knock the top guy back and make crabbing harder. My team started over with entirely new stuff for leg riding defense because more and more high schoolers can transition between crab ridding (a niche technique in the 90s) and leg ridding to easily frustrate the bottom guy.

 

Somethings like a beginner's power half-nelson haven't changed since time immemorial, but for almost everything past first year wrestling the techniques have evolved.

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Holy cow - from your post, it appears that wrestlers didn't get quick until the 80's. You do know that pre-80's wrestlers were able to scramble concisely with a ton of speed, right?

 

Yeah, you are right. Statistically, wrestling is the only sport where measurable athletic statistics have remained the same......

 

I wonder if you think the track athletes and strength athletes were just as good as today's as well?

I wonder how today's track/strength athletes would fair without 'roids, enhanced equipment, and altered synthetic surfaces? The vaulting parson is still the only person to clear 15' with a solid pole, inspite of a large prize offered for decades to anyone who could match it. Near half my high school's boys track records are over thirty years old, inspite of the improvements and increased in population.

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Gary Breece 40 years ago was using the pivot sitout as his only move on bottom.

What you call an Iranian, I presume is a backdoor finish. I had to change how I taught that finish because of opponents hooking ankles, but i was also taught over 40 years ago a backdoor finish whete you sat your legs thru once you had your head in position.

 

Crab rides were common 40 years ago then went away. When Cael Sanderson came along all of a sudden the crabride half nelson came back along with the ankle pick. Guess where he learned those things, from his dad Steve Sanderon who was his coach and who had wrestled in college.

 

As i stated previously some moves that work go out of fashion because the coaches who taught them retired.

Sometimes a move will seem unstoppable. Billy Martin Jr was wrestling for OSU in 1972 when Stan Abel took over as head coach at OU. Billy Martin Jr was using the Granby Roll on everybody. Stan said we'll take care of that he reintroduced the Spiral Ride. In short order the Spiral Ride became common, and the Granby Roll no longer was the unstoppable bottom move. Now the Spiral Ride is widely used, but Stan says 90% of the college coaches don't know how to do it correctly. I've seen a Olympic gold medalist demonstrating it in our high school practice. I privately showed him how it was taught at OU. Port Robertson developed it in the early 1950s as a method to get the bar arm ride. Rarely do I see it done correctly, but guys still ride effectively with it. A lot of people call it a stall ride, it isn't when you learn from the guy who is the modern inventor.

 

With the change in rules of what is a nearfall, bottom wrestlers had to become much more cognizant about defending against tilts. 40-50 years ago unless you were in position to actually pin the opponent no nearfall points would have been awarded.

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Originally you said "so moves that worked 50 years ago should work today." The Irianian "back door finish" where you don't hid your ankles would have worked in the 1960s because the majority of wrestlers didn't scramble with ankles the way that we do now. Not hiding your ankles no longer works today. That is a simple, inarguable fact that I spend the majority of my week convincing aging dads of. By and large, if you transported a pre-80s wrestler to 2014, his pre-80s skill set would not overcome the skills of modern wrestlers on any level past grade school.

 

Moves that a few wrestlers did that faded into obscurity was not the subject of my post.

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Quickness isn't something you can teach. Now you can improve thtough drills reaction to exploding on the whistle.

 

100% false. I see what your point is, but it is wrong. First, you can maximize the enzymatic function of any muscle fiber type, making it more efficient. Second, you totally disregard your CNS, which is where half of your speed or quickness comes from. You might be born with a certain potential, but anyone with the right S&C coaching can 100% improve their quickness.

 

I see these same arguments pop up everywhere in real life. Older people cannot figure out why something works even though it is "wrong." It seems every other day I hear the same line of "that will never work. You cant _________. Back in my time ______ would never let that happen." Then like clockwork, what they said would never work magically works like a charm, and then the old timer will cough it up to "today's ________ have gotten soft and rely too much on _________."

 

Its not just wrestling; most sports, most jobs, most ways of doing things. It is nice when older people can impart their wisdom and shed some different light on things. Its a great movie where the old guys come back and show the young bucks that disregarding modern technology in lieu of hard work and no nonsense can save the day. Unfortunately, in most facets of real life, it becomes a debate of how better things used to be and how inept or weak today's society is, even though the modern era is more efficient in what they do. You ever wonder why its only the old guard who claim that "it aint what it used to be?"

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