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BigApple

Gizoni vs Crossface Cradle

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If your opinion is correct that quickness can be improved then all competitors should be improving. Then the differentials between opponents should remain essentially the same. So a move used 50 years ago that employs the proper leverage, angles of attack should still work today in most cases.

 

usain Bolt is obviously faster in the 109 and 200 meters than any sprinter we've ever seen. However, is his margin of victory significantly different than when Jesse Owens was the world's fastest.

 

Yes, I think today's wrestlers are generally better athletes than 50 years ago at the collegiate level. Now you have significantly more high schools with wrestling. Amarillo HS in 1960 was the only high school wrestling program in Texas, today there are around 300. But there weren't any college level wrestling programs in Texas except forva relatively new NAIA team. So the depth of high school wrestling has increased vastly, yet the number of college wrestling programs dropped during the same time period. So you have more good wrestlers from high school trying to wrestle in college with significantly fewer opportunities. Which is why coaches can field full teams with only 9.9 scholarships.

 

However, good technique still works. The bar arm series still is used effectively, but is not used to the full extent of its potential. Terry Brands shows 3 things on his series, Mickey Martin 1962 & 1963 NCAA champ snd OW taught me 15 ways to put an opponent on his back with the bar arm series. Mickey doesn't coach anymore so guess what you don't see as much in Oklahoma high school wrestling as you used to.

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If your opinion is correct that quickness can be improved then all competitors should be improving

 

Not all athletes work the same to improve their quickness. In fact, some of them dont do it at all because their coaches tell them it is impossible to improve quickness.

 

I am not saying certain moves dont work anymore. Moves from 50 years ago are the same as they are today. The problem is that people figure out ways to counter certain moves. In addition, moves that take a long time to set up have a much lower percentage because guys are so much faster. It isnt as easy as just blaming ignorance because guys arent posting angles or they cant just gizoni out of a cradle. No one is "forgetting" moves; its just that certain counters are very difficult when faced with an opponent who has good technique and is an awesome athlete.

 

We arent in a time like 50 years ago where a bunch of techniques can beat a wrestler who has less technique. We are in a time where many guys are way more athletic and they train full time. When you add in so many more variables, the game gets a little more complex than just walking off the farm and doing your best from November to March.

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I know college wrestlers train year round, because I see OU do it.

Posting an ankle isn't something that takes time to setup, it is a drilled reaction.

Gizoni's can be reactionary or they can be setup. The tripod standup is a slow developing move, you'd think that because today's wrestlers are quicker and faster that move shouldn't work.

 

These are the cardinal rules/principles of wrestling as I was taught.

 

1. Position

2. Motion

3. Hand control

4. Changing levels

5. Penetration.

 

The key to winning in wrestling is getting your opponent out of position. My point on the Gizoni is it is a proven technique, yet youvdon't see it too often. Limp arm as a method of removing a whizzer. My Iowa buddies complain that technique at Iowa has complained from their time. The one guy they don't complain about is Derek St.John who uses techniques they used, and I'm used to seeing. Fundamentals are still the same regardless of what decade. I just see a lot of wrestlers who don't use proper technique. They may wrestle more matches, but it is obvious they aren't mastering a lot of techniques that are fundamentally sound.

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BigApple,

 

I'm sorry, but I've been trying to troll you most of this time. Based on your comments in this thread, you're either a master troll yourself, or completely uninformed of wrestling in 2014 and or unwilling to actually read other posts in this thread. I assume the latter.

 

Not only do you seem to have little to no grasp on the current trends in NCAA D1 wrestling, but you completely ignore other people's posts and spew out off-topic drivel. Most NCAA D1 wrestlers don't limp arm out of a whizzer, not because it's a bad move, but because shelfing the leg and trying for the far ankle neutralizes the whizzer better and leads to more frequent scoring against good opponents. No one runs the arm bar anymore? Logan Streebler runs the bar better than anyone I can remember seeing.

 

I just see a lot of wrestlers who don't use proper technique. They may wrestle more matches, but it is obvious they aren't mastering a lot of techniques that are fundamentally sound.

 

Which NCAA Champs from 2011-2013 had poor fundamentals? The development of head-hands defense, stance and motion, short offense, sprawling, mat finishes, riding and turning etc., basically everything are more sound than from the last decade. You have to be in such good position to score a takedown because of the current rules regarding scrambling and the development of that aspect of wrestling. Do you even watch NCAA wrestling?

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Granby Troll.

 

Obviously you are clueless as to what my background and current activity in the sport is.

 

In the standing position when the opponent has a whizzer you can limp arm out. Now I know that many wrestlers now grasp their own ankle to prevent the limp arm being executed. 3 years ago I was watching the OU practice (Mark Cody's first year). There are seats at one end of the 4-mat practice area for visitors or the team to sit. Tyrone Lewis volunteer assistant coach was wrestling Eric Schmidkte. Lewis had a whizzer in and Schmidtke was parallel with a arm across the back. I immediately said limp arm, which Schmidke did and scored the takedown. Lewis yelled at me to keep my mouth shut. We had a conversation after practice he found out I wasn't going to be quiet, I wasn't disruptive. Cody got a big laugh out of it.

 

I know Logan Stieber fairly well. You are confusing a bar arm with an arm bar (chicken wing in Oklahoma). They are two entirely different moves. The bar arm is sometimes called a near wrist ride outside of Oklahoma.

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Since my involvement in the sport since 1960, I’ve been fortunate to have been coached by, trained with, or coached with several individuals who’ve had considerable success during their wrestling and coaching careers. A brief overview of the qualifications of these individuals will provide you some insight on who influenced my philosophy, and development of my wrestling skills.

Bob Williams was my high school coach in Kansas. He wrestled for Ed Gallagher at Oklahoma State in the late 1930s, placing 3rd at 177 pounds. We were taught a lot of two on one breakdowns, and were very proficient at pinning with half nelsons, chicken wings, and near side cradles. Our team was not very slick on our feet, knowing how to do double and single legs, and fireman’s carries. We were extremely tough down on the mat. Our high school opened my sophomore year; we had only 3 wrestlers with previous high school experience. Our first year we were 2-8 in dual meets. The next year we were 8-2 in dual meets losing only to the No.2 team in state twice. We finished 5th in state our second year, and were 6th the next year.

Len Kauffman was my teammate on the Fort Wolters, Texas team I coached in 1968-1969. Len was 2nd and 3rd in the NCAA tournaments at Oregon State. He won two AAU national open freestyle championships in 1964 and 1969. In 1964 the only world tournament he participated in the placed 4th losing 3rd place on the last criteria of weighing more at the end of the match. Len led the nation in pins his junior and senior years with approximately 25 pins each year. According to Len approximately 90 percent of his pins were from using a nearside cradle. Len has the all-time highest pinning percentage in D-1 wrestling history at 82.5%, which is about 5% higher than the next highest percentage held by the legendary Danny Hodge.

Tommy Evans was the first head coach I worked for at the University of Oklahoma. Tommy is one of the most decorated wrestlers in U. S. history. Tommy was 2nd as sophomore, 1st as a junior and senior, being selected the outstanding wrestler of the NCAA tournament the two years he won. His only loss in college was the NCAA finals as a sophomore. After his junior year he placed second in the Olympics at 147 pounds, taking the defending champion down 7 times, but was not awarded the victory. He was the head coach of the 1960 and 1963 NCAA championship teams. He was selected as the head coach of the 1968 U.S. Olympic freestyle wrestling team. Tommy was one of the first five inductees to the National Wrestling Hall of Fame located in Stillwater, Oklahoma

Port Robertson was the assistant athletic director at the University of Oklahoma when I was an assistant Port was the head wrestling coach from 1947-1959 and 1962. He built the University of Oklahoma into a perennial national power. He was selected as one of the second five members inducted into the National Wrestling Hall of Fame. His teams won the 1950, 1951, and 1957 NCAA tournaments. He coached Tommy Evans, Danny Hodge, and Stan Abel who are all members of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame. Port teams were known for their pinning ability, his teams hold the highest pinning percentage of any coach in NCAA history. As an example Danny Hodge in three Big 7 (now Big 8) pinned every opponent in three years. In 1956 he pinned all but one wrestler he faced that year. Port was extremely skilled in recruiting athletes who had not won a state title and turning them into NCAA champions. Stan Abel and Duwane Miller wrestled at Putnam City, the highest either finished was 3rd in state. Stan won 2 titles and Duwane 1 title at OU. I spent any free time I had at OU talking to Port about the mental aspects of wrestling. Port believed the following:

1. If you could be an opponent by 5 or more points, you were superior enough a wrestler to pin him.

2. It is easier to pin a good wrestler than it is to beat him, because the only place a good wrestler is not familiar with is being on his back.

3. Every move must be learned to both sides. In pinning it is extremely important to be able to change off from one combination to another, and from side to side.

4. Port felt the most important thing to learn about a move was why it wouldn’t work. He made sure that each wrestler drilled each move perfectly He stated many wrestlers don’t know why a move works. He made sure they understood why you did every component of a move in a certain way.

5. You need to be in better condition than your opponent in order to wear him down physically and mentally. Many wrestlers will give up late in a match when they are and behind.

Wayne Wells was the other student assistant for Tommy Evans in my first year at OU. Wayne was 1971 World and 1972 Olympic champion at 163 pounds in freestyle, and captain of the Olympic Freestyle Wrestling team. Distinguished Member of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame. He was a three-time all-American and NCAA champion. Wayne always stressed putting the man on his side when applying pinning combination. He always made sure that there was no “daylight” in a pinning combination before he put the opponent onto his back to pin him. He was particularly noted for his “high in the thigh” flanker and power half combination. This was his favorite pinning combination in international competition.

Stan Abel was the head coach at Oklahoma from 1973 through 1992, producing 16 NCAA champions including Gary Breece (4-time all-American), Rod Kilgore (2-time champ, 4-time all-American), Dave (NCAA, World & Olympic Champion) and Mark Schultz (3-time NCAA Champ, 2-time World Champ, and Olympic Champ) both members of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame, Andre Metzger (2-time NCAA Champ, 2nd in World), and Melvin Douglas (2-time NCAA champ, World Champ). Although know for his takedown skills, Stan’s teams were always skilled at mat wrestling especially at escapes and riding. Stan was considered to be one of the best technicians/clinicians in the world, particularly on single leg takedown. Stan is a member of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame.

Mickey Martin was a 2-time NCAA champion at OU 1962-1963. He was voted the outstanding wrestler in 1963 when he defeated Bobby Douglas. Mickey was the coach at Norman High when I was at OU. Mickey was noted for his mastery of the Bar Arm Ride Series.

Duwane Miller was the 1961 NCAA champion at 123 pounds at OU, defeating Masaaki Hatta. Duwane was a high school and college teammate of Stan Abel’s. I helped Duwane at Kapaun-MtCarmel Catholic Prep High School in Wichita. Duwane had taken over as head coach in 1973-1974; the team went 1-4-2 in dual meets and 4th in state with 2 state champs including one freshman with no previous experience. Kapaun-MtCarmel had never finished higher than 20th in state before and had only two state champs in the approximately 20 years the school was open. I began helping as a volunteer coach at Kapaun-MtCarmel in the fall of 1974 after leaving OU. For the next 4 years we won 3 City league championships, 3 class 3A state championships, the only 2 Grand State Championships ever held in Kansas, and were undefeated in dual meets. Kapaun-MtCarmel competed each year in the Perry, Oklahoma tournament (One of the toughest invitational tournaments in Oklahoma, some teams have had kids win more state championships, than Perry tournaments) taking 2nd or 3rd every year. Duwane coached for 13 years before retiring with 8 state championships and 2 grand state championships, and a 114 dual meet winning streak He was selected the National High School Wrestling Coach of the Year in 1978 by Scholastic Wrestling News (now Wrestling USA).

Duwane stressed pinning as much as Port Robertson did. His teams were very adept with the bar arm series, and their ability to change off. He also taught “trick” moves which are fundamentally sound, but which were not commonly used at the high school level. Duwane claimed that many of his wrestlers reached the state finals by pinning a better wrestler with a trick move.

 

Lee Roy Smith Jr. served as the USA Wrestling Freestyle Coach helping the team to some of its best performances at the world and Olympic championships in 1988 and 1992. After that he became the head coach at Arizona State University. I worked closely with Lee Roy on scouting, and frequently attended practices. Head position which all of the Smith brothers excelled at was not developed until the late 1970s when the USA Wrestling staff began to study the Russians method of head position. This is the single biggest advancement in wrestling in the U.S. I’ve seen since leaving OU in 1974. Lee Roy was a NCAA champ and a World Silver Medalist in freestyle wrestling.

 

Lee Roy had me teach the spiral ride and bar arm series at his wrestling camps in ASU. I used to also work with some of his wrestlers privately. Steve Blackford learned the bar arm series from me. In the quarterfinals of his junior year he was wrestling Kirk White defending NCAA champ at 165. White took him down, Steve reversed him, and was ahead 11-2 at the end of the first period, and won 16-5 with almost all of the near fall points coming from changing off in the bar arm ride series.

 

So Granby Troll tell me who you are.

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If your opinion is correct that quickness can be improved then all competitors should be improving

 

Not all athletes work the same to improve their quickness. In fact, some of them dont do it at all because their coaches tell them it is impossible to improve quickness.

 

I am not saying certain moves dont work anymore. Moves from 50 years ago are the same as they are today. The problem is that people figure out ways to counter certain moves. In addition, moves that take a long time to set up have a much lower percentage because guys are so much faster. It isnt as easy as just blaming ignorance because guys arent posting angles or they cant just gizoni out of a cradle. No one is "forgetting" moves; its just that certain counters are very difficult when faced with an opponent who has good technique and is an awesome athlete.

 

Olddirty,

 

Where are you getting this idea that "guys are so much faster" today? Many of the counters to the moves you talk about existed 40 plus years ago. Back then, the wrestlers also had to deal with awesome athletes with good technique when trying to apply moves.

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The Owings Gable match looks terrible, but it's a bad example because it takes the worst match of Gable's career and tries to make broad implications. It was a very sloppy match to be sure, but most that saw Gable wrestle….or those that wrestled against him either at the time or later while he was coaching at Iowa….say that the Owings match doesn't look anything like Gable.

 

In any event, there are both sides to the argument, with a lot of egos clashing, but the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For the most part, olddirty is correct that there's a certain nostalgia that exists among old-timers when it comes to wrestling. This leads to common statements such as:

 

"Things aren't what they used to be….kids are weak these days….in my day ____ move would have been used to stop this……why aren't wrestlers doing _____ move anymore". Etc. etc.

 

Most of the time, reality is that the farther removed you are from competition, you forget that wrestling a tough opponent is hard, and there isn't always an easy move or silver bullet to win the match for you. Why don't people use a gizoni to stop Ed Ruth's cradle? That's kind of like asking why guys didn't put their hands down and get in a low stance to stop John Smith's low single? Or why didn't guys stop Cael's ankle pick by tying him up? Well, they tried to, and some were able to (Sajidov v. Cael for example) but the reason it wasn't seen very often is that those guys are damn good!

 

But despite reality being much more difficult than a nostalgic fantasy, Big Apple is correct that there are many moves out there that would be just as effective today as they were years ago, but you rarely see them today because nobody coaches them. So posters are foolish to disregard his comments as if they are meaningless drivel from an old-timer. That is not the case at all, he is just presenting them in a slightly unrealistic nostalgic manner, as if it would be easy for any opponent to get away from Ed Ruth if only they knew a few key moves.

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Not going to join in the debate; only point out a comment I thought was ridiculous. During AGON II Hellickson was commentating and mentioned that, nobody today new technique. All I could think was #SMH, and Askren did his best to not be disrespectful. Hellcikson and even Lee Kemp to a much smaller extent had the "back in my day" syndrome.

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Given that the majority of the seriously successful wrestlers don't lift weights, how do they improve quickness?

 

Almost all college wrestlers lift weights. I'm talking in the 90% range of guys do resistance training at points in the year. That is not how you develop speed. Speed is developed by plyometric training and sport specific explosiveness drills/exercises. These train your CNS and type 2a/2b muscle fibers that lifting weights cannot.

 

But despite reality being much more difficult than a nostalgic fantasy, Big Apple is correct that there are many moves out there that would be just as effective today as they were years ago, but you rarely see them today because nobody coaches them. So posters are foolish to disregard his comments as if they are meaningless drivel from an old-timer. That is not the case at all, ais just presenting them in a slightly unrealistic nostalgic manner, as if it would be easy for any opponent to get away from Ed Ruth if only they knew a few key moves.

 

I would agree but take exception on one point: Damn near every guy at the DI level knows how to post the ankle or git a gizoni. The problem is that guys are doing moves now that were less used in the 60's and guys now are also full time wrestlers, so its unrealistic to just say "guys cant hit these moves because they are inept at wrestling in certain positions, unlike guys from 45 years ago." Like I said, every generation up to this point has done this when they get older. Its the same reason why people think John Wayne and Bruce Lee would kick the crap out GSP.

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The Owings Gable match looks terrible, but it's a bad example because it takes the worst match of Gable's career and tries to make broad implications. It was a very sloppy match to be sure, but most that saw Gable wrestle….or those that wrestled against him either at the time or later while he was coaching at Iowa….say that the Owings match doesn't look anything like Gable.

 

But that's arguably Owings' best match. One could argue that a career best performance against an all time great should look better than that.

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Since my involvement in the sport since 1960, I’ve been fortunate to have been coached by, trained with, or coached with several individuals who’ve had considerable success during their wrestling and coaching careers. A brief overview of the qualifications of these individuals will provide you some insight on who influenced my philosophy, and development of my wrestling skills.

Bob Williams was my high school coach in Kansas. He wrestled for Ed Gallagher at Oklahoma State in the late 1930s, placing 3rd at 177 pounds. We were taught a lot of two on one breakdowns, and were very proficient at pinning with half nelsons, chicken wings, and near side cradles. Our team was not very slick on our feet, knowing how to do double and single legs, and fireman’s carries. We were extremely tough down on the mat. Our high school opened my sophomore year; we had only 3 wrestlers with previous high school experience. Our first year we were 2-8 in dual meets. The next year we were 8-2 in dual meets losing only to the No.2 team in state twice. We finished 5th in state our second year, and were 6th the next year.

Len Kauffman was my teammate on the Fort Wolters, Texas team I coached in 1968-1969. Len was 2nd and 3rd in the NCAA tournaments at Oregon State. He won two AAU national open freestyle championships in 1964 and 1969. In 1964 the only world tournament he participated in the placed 4th losing 3rd place on the last criteria of weighing more at the end of the match. Len led the nation in pins his junior and senior years with approximately 25 pins each year. According to Len approximately 90 percent of his pins were from using a nearside cradle. Len has the all-time highest pinning percentage in D-1 wrestling history at 82.5%, which is about 5% higher than the next highest percentage held by the legendary Danny Hodge.

Tommy Evans was the first head coach I worked for at the University of Oklahoma. Tommy is one of the most decorated wrestlers in U. S. history. Tommy was 2nd as sophomore, 1st as a junior and senior, being selected the outstanding wrestler of the NCAA tournament the two years he won. His only loss in college was the NCAA finals as a sophomore. After his junior year he placed second in the Olympics at 147 pounds, taking the defending champion down 7 times, but was not awarded the victory. He was the head coach of the 1960 and 1963 NCAA championship teams. He was selected as the head coach of the 1968 U.S. Olympic freestyle wrestling team. Tommy was one of the first five inductees to the National Wrestling Hall of Fame located in Stillwater, Oklahoma

Port Robertson was the assistant athletic director at the University of Oklahoma when I was an assistant Port was the head wrestling coach from 1947-1959 and 1962. He built the University of Oklahoma into a perennial national power. He was selected as one of the second five members inducted into the National Wrestling Hall of Fame. His teams won the 1950, 1951, and 1957 NCAA tournaments. He coached Tommy Evans, Danny Hodge, and Stan Abel who are all members of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame. Port teams were known for their pinning ability, his teams hold the highest pinning percentage of any coach in NCAA history. As an example Danny Hodge in three Big 7 (now Big 8) pinned every opponent in three years. In 1956 he pinned all but one wrestler he faced that year. Port was extremely skilled in recruiting athletes who had not won a state title and turning them into NCAA champions. Stan Abel and Duwane Miller wrestled at Putnam City, the highest either finished was 3rd in state. Stan won 2 titles and Duwane 1 title at OU. I spent any free time I had at OU talking to Port about the mental aspects of wrestling. Port believed the following:

1. If you could be an opponent by 5 or more points, you were superior enough a wrestler to pin him.

2. It is easier to pin a good wrestler than it is to beat him, because the only place a good wrestler is not familiar with is being on his back.

3. Every move must be learned to both sides. In pinning it is extremely important to be able to change off from one combination to another, and from side to side.

4. Port felt the most important thing to learn about a move was why it wouldn’t work. He made sure that each wrestler drilled each move perfectly He stated many wrestlers don’t know why a move works. He made sure they understood why you did every component of a move in a certain way.

5. You need to be in better condition than your opponent in order to wear him down physically and mentally. Many wrestlers will give up late in a match when they are and behind.

Wayne Wells was the other student assistant for Tommy Evans in my first year at OU. Wayne was 1971 World and 1972 Olympic champion at 163 pounds in freestyle, and captain of the Olympic Freestyle Wrestling team. Distinguished Member of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame. He was a three-time all-American and NCAA champion. Wayne always stressed putting the man on his side when applying pinning combination. He always made sure that there was no “daylight” in a pinning combination before he put the opponent onto his back to pin him. He was particularly noted for his “high in the thigh” flanker and power half combination. This was his favorite pinning combination in international competition.

Stan Abel was the head coach at Oklahoma from 1973 through 1992, producing 16 NCAA champions including Gary Breece (4-time all-American), Rod Kilgore (2-time champ, 4-time all-American), Dave (NCAA, World & Olympic Champion) and Mark Schultz (3-time NCAA Champ, 2-time World Champ, and Olympic Champ) both members of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame, Andre Metzger (2-time NCAA Champ, 2nd in World), and Melvin Douglas (2-time NCAA champ, World Champ). Although know for his takedown skills, Stan’s teams were always skilled at mat wrestling especially at escapes and riding. Stan was considered to be one of the best technicians/clinicians in the world, particularly on single leg takedown. Stan is a member of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame.

Mickey Martin was a 2-time NCAA champion at OU 1962-1963. He was voted the outstanding wrestler in 1963 when he defeated Bobby Douglas. Mickey was the coach at Norman High when I was at OU. Mickey was noted for his mastery of the Bar Arm Ride Series.

Duwane Miller was the 1961 NCAA champion at 123 pounds at OU, defeating Masaaki Hatta. Duwane was a high school and college teammate of Stan Abel’s. I helped Duwane at Kapaun-MtCarmel Catholic Prep High School in Wichita. Duwane had taken over as head coach in 1973-1974; the team went 1-4-2 in dual meets and 4th in state with 2 state champs including one freshman with no previous experience. Kapaun-MtCarmel had never finished higher than 20th in state before and had only two state champs in the approximately 20 years the school was open. I began helping as a volunteer coach at Kapaun-MtCarmel in the fall of 1974 after leaving OU. For the next 4 years we won 3 City league championships, 3 class 3A state championships, the only 2 Grand State Championships ever held in Kansas, and were undefeated in dual meets. Kapaun-MtCarmel competed each year in the Perry, Oklahoma tournament (One of the toughest invitational tournaments in Oklahoma, some teams have had kids win more state championships, than Perry tournaments) taking 2nd or 3rd every year. Duwane coached for 13 years before retiring with 8 state championships and 2 grand state championships, and a 114 dual meet winning streak He was selected the National High School Wrestling Coach of the Year in 1978 by Scholastic Wrestling News (now Wrestling USA).

Duwane stressed pinning as much as Port Robertson did. His teams were very adept with the bar arm series, and their ability to change off. He also taught “trick” moves which are fundamentally sound, but which were not commonly used at the high school level. Duwane claimed that many of his wrestlers reached the state finals by pinning a better wrestler with a trick move.

 

Lee Roy Smith Jr. served as the USA Wrestling Freestyle Coach helping the team to some of its best performances at the world and Olympic championships in 1988 and 1992. After that he became the head coach at Arizona State University. I worked closely with Lee Roy on scouting, and frequently attended practices. Head position which all of the Smith brothers excelled at was not developed until the late 1970s when the USA Wrestling staff began to study the Russians method of head position. This is the single biggest advancement in wrestling in the U.S. I’ve seen since leaving OU in 1974. Lee Roy was a NCAA champ and a World Silver Medalist in freestyle wrestling.

 

Lee Roy had me teach the spiral ride and bar arm series at his wrestling camps in ASU. I used to also work with some of his wrestlers privately. Steve Blackford learned the bar arm series from me. In the quarterfinals of his junior year he was wrestling Kirk White defending NCAA champ at 165. White took him down, Steve reversed him, and was ahead 11-2 at the end of the first period, and won 16-5 with almost all of the near fall points coming from changing off in the bar arm ride series.

 

So Granby Troll tell me who you are.

I had to respond to this post because:

1. I have great respect for Big Apple's posts, and now I know why. This one was awesome.

2. I've never used a quote this long, and I was afraid I'd never get this chance again. I must hold the record for longest single quote in The Mat Forum history. Thanks, BA :)

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Not going to join in the debate; only point out a comment I thought was ridiculous. During AGON II Hellickson was commentating and mentioned that, nobody today new technique. All I could think was #SMH, and Askren did his best to not be disrespectful. Hellcikson and even Lee Kemp to a much smaller extent had the "back in my day" syndrome.

 

Trust me, that's nothing. You should hear the conversations amongst old timers at tournaments like the ncaas when it's at full blast. It gets downright delusional. And I say that as a fellow old timer. You'd think today's average ncaa champ would be lucky to make all american back in the day if you listen to the conversations.

 

Do to my upbringing, I have a very rare vantage point that allows me to be a lot more objective (imo) when comparing wrestling from different eras. The truth of the matter, as I see it, is that there was downright horrible wrestling in the 60s just as there is today. The same old timers pointing out the errors of today's wrestlers made those same mistakes decades ago. Yes, that includes many of the greats from that period too. The biggest reason that's disputed is because there is very little existing footage from that time period.

 

The majority of wrestlers in the past weren't very impressive (by world class standards) just like the majority of today's wrestlers aren't very impressive.

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Superold legimate comments.

 

I've stated that there have been significant improvements in the neutral position since the 1970s.

 

I've kep actively involved in wrestling at many levels from little kids stepping onto the mat to junior national chsmpions. I was counting up the number of world and olympic gold medalists i've had the pleasure of extended conversations with, some who are friends that number is 26. I still coach as a volunteer level in high school. I think this maybe the last year, the knees are getting to creak to much.

 

I've got a fantasy team where each team has members who were former college wrestlers or cosches. The conversations are very interesting each year. A few now have sons winning state titles, we ask the sons if they've mastered the old man's moves.

 

I've seen the rule book changes over the year, one I think is because of me because I'd always get a referee on the legal starting position. You used to be able to be past the near knee now you can't.

 

I am not going to make any claims on Henry Cejudo other than teaching him and his teammates the cradle series and how to do a crotchlift. I did tell Art Martori about him when Henry was an 8th grader. I knew he'd be a great one, just not that great.

 

Now I no longer teach the crotchlift because some Russian figured out that instead of fighting it, go with it, but hold on to the top man's arm so he doesn't throw you away and he'll be on his back.

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Tony Nelson has been riding with it his entire college career. My point is if you really know the series you'll do more than ride with it. There are 15 options I was taught by Mickey Martin and Duwane Miller that would put an opponent on his back. That is what I don't see done much, akthough Danny Chaid Jr, has used a couple of them during his freshman year (this year) at OU. His dad was pretty good with the bar arm series at OU and holds the most pins record. So an old man who wrestled in the 1980s has apparently taught the son some of his signature moves. Move still works just wasn't being taught from what I've been seeing.

 

Logan Stieber's arm bar and half is done just about identically to the way Mickey Martin did it in 1961-1963. I remember people saying Logsn wouldn't be able to use that move successfully in college. I disagreed because I knew it was fundamentally sound, prople just hadn't seen it used for awhile.

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Granby Troll you are a complete idiot. I have always been interested in the history of wrestling. The late Jay Hammond wasva friend of mine. In his book on the History of Collegiate Wrestling there is the coaching lineage of Ed Gallagher. Lee Roy Smith wrote that section after asking for my input.

 

I said Ed Gallagher coached Cliff Keen who coached Harold Nichols who coached Dan Gable.

Paul Keen, Cliff's brother was a basketball player at Oklahoma A & M, but worked out with the team. He later became the head coach at OU where he coached Port Robertson, who coached Tommy Evans and Stan Abel.

OSU wrestlers who coached NCAA championship teams are Myron Roderick, Bobby Douglas, and John Smith.

 

I have yet to hear from you what your background in wrestling is. Now for the history question I haven't been able to get answered, who is Merkle? I know who developed the move that is called the Merkle in the east. Duwane Miller deeloped it in the early 1960s while he was coaching at Midwest City HS. He called it a head cradle.

 

Port Robertson developed the Spiral Ride in the late 1940s-early 1950s. Harold Nichols hired several former OU and OSU wrestlers as clinicians at his wrestling camps in the mid 1960s. Nichols started calling the Spiral Ride the Cyclone Rotary Ride. So a move in one part of the country becomes called the same move in another part of the country. I was taught both the Chickenwing ( arm bar in Iowa) and the Bar Arm Ride Series ( near wrist ride, Bobby Douglas called it that).

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