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SetonHallPirate

Reimagining NCAA wrestling...

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The teams that lose in round 1 do what? Twiddle their thumbs for one month? Hastily schedule some other school that lost? I'm not sure they could draw flies to those events.

 

And you take an entire month up before the NCAA Tournament, but state the POV that this would not take away from the NCAA Tournament? I disagree. It WOULD take away from the Tournament in my view.

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was thinking about an 8 team dual tournament a little more, have these been done in the past? i looked at the VA Duals as guide of a guide. Here's what i was thinking - all conjecture at this point so please let me know if i'm missing any big obstacles.

 

Saturday, 2 mats

9am: Seeds 1 v 8 & 4 v 5

11am: Seeds 2 v 7 & 3 v 6

Break - then wrestlebacks & semis. assuming seeds hold...

3pm: 5 v 8 & 7 v 6

5pm: 1 v 4 & 2 v 3

 

Sunday, 1 mat - placement matches. assuming seeds hold again...

9am: 7 v 8

11am: 5 v 6

break again for lunch

3pm: 3 v 4

5pm: 1 v 2

 

i was thinking that would be the most TV friendly, but if team travel logistics dictate otherwise you could always scrunch everything closer together with more mats on the second day, or more mats and everything in one day. anyway, i would watch all those matches so i think it would be nice if it happens, tho i realize the chances at this point are nil for the immediate horizon.

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re high school schedule conflicts. Why can't state programs mostly get on the same page and collaborate with collegiate programming to streamline these things?

 

I know there are lots of moving parts. But that's the job of USA wrestling to pull that together for the health and success of the sport

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In Oklahoma three of the four weekends are tournaments. Dual state finals are on a Saturday, Regionals the following weekend and are 2-day tournaments (Friday-Saturday), State is the last weekend is a Friday-Saturday tournament. First weekend of February is the state junior high tournament a Friday-Saturday tournament.

 

So You can have meets during the week or on Sunday for college and not interfere with the high school tournaments. This would be the case in almost every state in the U.S.

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(I apologize in advance for suggesting something different; your idea is very good.)

 

Another idea, one that would include all teams (not just 24) and not use up a whole month, is to divide the teams up into round robin pools to be wrestled (home and/or away) throughout the regular season. This would qualify every team in the country for a specific "bowl" tournament at a pre-determined location.

 

For example, say there are 72 teams. Divide them up by conference and/or geography into 12 pools of 6: Pool A, Pool B, ..., Pool L. Based on the result of the round robin with other teams in their pool, they qualify for a crossover dual meet "bowl" tournament:

 

Asics "Gold" Bowl: A1 vs B1 vs C1 ... vs L1

Cliff Keen "Silver" Bowl: A2 through L2

Brute "Bronze" Bowl: A3 through L3

Adidas "Copper" Bowl: A4 through L4

Nike "Nickel" Bowl: A5 through L5

Cold-Eeze "Zinc" Bowl: A6 through L6

 

I realize that the bowl tournaments themselves contradict the idea of having as many important 2-hour-only home and away duals as possible, but the round-robin dual meets throughout the season would be much more exciting, even for mid- and lower-tier teams, as everyone would be shooting for the best bowl possible.

 

NOTES:

-The pools probably should be drawn so that the best teams are separated for a potential matchup at the Gold Bowl.

-The teams from one pool could host all the bowls; this way, the host school can attend their own bowl.

-Team of course can continue to schedule dual meets outside their pool throughout the season as they always have.

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In Oklahoma three of the four weekends are tournaments. Dual state finals are on a Saturday, Regionals the following weekend and are 2-day tournaments (Friday-Saturday), State is the last weekend is a Friday-Saturday tournament. First weekend of February is the state junior high tournament a Friday-Saturday tournament.

 

So You can have meets during the week or on Sunday for college and not interfere with the high school tournaments. This would be the case in almost every state in the U.S.

 

or the events can just be scheduled concurrently. they have DVRs in Oklahoma.

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The teams that lose in round 1 do what? Twiddle their thumbs for one month? Hastily schedule some other school that lost? I'm not sure they could draw flies to those events.

 

And you take an entire month up before the NCAA Tournament, but state the POV that this would not take away from the NCAA Tournament? I disagree. It WOULD take away from the Tournament in my view.

From a fan's perspective, how would it take away from the NCAA Traditional Championships?

 

As far as the schools that lose in round 1, or fail to make the field, wrestle (or host) opens, duals against other schools not in the field, or simply rest up. I suspect most schools would choose to do the last of the three.

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The teams that lose in round 1 do what? Twiddle their thumbs for one month? Hastily schedule some other school that lost? I'm not sure they could draw flies to those events.

 

And you take an entire month up before the NCAA Tournament, but state the POV that this would not take away from the NCAA Tournament? I disagree. It WOULD take away from the Tournament in my view.

From a fan's perspective, how would it take away from the NCAA Traditional Championships?

 

As far as the schools that lose in round 1, or fail to make the field, wrestle (or host) opens, duals against other schools not in the field, or simply rest up. I suspect most schools would choose to do the last of the three.

 

Spending one whole month on the duals championship vs. 3 days flor the Tournament would tell the wrestling community that the duals are more important than the existing Tournament. That is one. But I don't think it could possibly work, so its a non starter anyway. Unless I am missing something, your plan calls for seeding and then 5 days later you have a meet? How will you draw fans at the last minute? These things hardly drew fans last year, so how does this do any better?

 

Also, your admonition as to how to go about taking a month off won't fly with AD's. Hastily scheduling last second duals won't entice them either. The plan isn't workable imho.

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drastically changing a whole month of the season may be too tough to pull off all at once. maybe it would be easier to start small and then expand it? a one weekend event with a predetermined location with a selection committee picking the top however many teams. as long as the dual points translate into the NCAA tournament teams won't be able to skip it. then over time expand the field and incorporate the home mat preliminary rounds?

 

but either way, the future of the sport depends on growing the market/fanbase. the components are there, the demand is there, the teams, coaches, admins etc just need to start putting out the right product.

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The teams that lose in round 1 do what? Twiddle their thumbs for one month? Hastily schedule some other school that lost? I'm not sure they could draw flies to those events.

 

And you take an entire month up before the NCAA Tournament, but state the POV that this would not take away from the NCAA Tournament? I disagree. It WOULD take away from the Tournament in my view.

From a fan's perspective, how would it take away from the NCAA Traditional Championships?

 

As far as the schools that lose in round 1, or fail to make the field, wrestle (or host) opens, duals against other schools not in the field, or simply rest up. I suspect most schools would choose to do the last of the three.

 

Spending one whole month on the duals championship vs. 3 days flor the Tournament would tell the wrestling community that the duals are more important than the existing Tournament. That is one. But I don't think it could possibly work, so its a non starter anyway. Unless I am missing something, your plan calls for seeding and then 5 days later you have a meet? How will you draw fans at the last minute? These things hardly drew fans last year, so how does this do any better?

 

With the two-hour, home-and-away meet. There's a big difference between asking fans to stick around for a full-day tournament, and asking for fans to stick around for two hours to watch a SINGLE home dual that is part of the NCAA Championships. The way things work right now benefits exactly one person, and that person happens to be the author of the article we're discussing.

 

Also, your admonition as to how to go about taking a month off won't fly with AD's. Hastily scheduling last second duals won't entice them either. The plan isn't workable imho.

 

Fair point, but in that case, how do the NIT, CBI, and CIBT (all basketball postseason tournaments) all work? I agree that that's something that would need to be worked out, but I disagree that scheduling last second opens (or duals within easy driving distance) wouldn't work.

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SHP - when you say "home-and-away meet" what do you mean? just one match, one time home and one team away? i always thought it meant a two game series, each team getting a match up at home.

 

maybe ive got it wrong but that was confusing me with your proposals.

In this sense, I mean it as one single solitary dual, with one team at home and one away. Having teams wrestle twice, once at each venue, on the same date would be something possible only on EA Sports' upcoming release, Dan Gable Wrestling 2015...

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SHP - when you say "home-and-away meet" what do you mean? just one match, one time home and one team away? i always thought it meant a two game series, each team getting a match up at home.

 

maybe ive got it wrong but that was confusing me with your proposals.

In this sense, I mean it as one single solitary dual, with one team at home and one away. Having teams wrestle twice, once at each venue, on the same date would be something possible only on EA Sports' upcoming release, Dan Gable Wrestling 2015...

 

That is a point I was confused about too. "Home and Away" is a term for a two site series; these would be "hosted by higher seed" or "on campus duals."

 

But I think it is a good model. It has worked very well in collegiate soccer which typically has less of a draw than wrestling does. (Cal Poly and Santa Barbara have a good rivalry that draws well but most programs, even national contenders don't draw well.)

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SHP - when you say "home-and-away meet" what do you mean? just one match, one time home and one team away? i always thought it meant a two game series, each team getting a match up at home.

 

maybe ive got it wrong but that was confusing me with your proposals.

In this sense, I mean it as one single solitary dual, with one team at home and one away. Having teams wrestle twice, once at each venue, on the same date would be something possible only on EA Sports' upcoming release, Dan Gable Wrestling 2015...

 

That is a point I was confused about too. "Home and Away" is a term for a two site series; these would be "hosted by higher seed" or "on campus duals."

 

But I think it is a good model. It has worked very well in collegiate soccer which typically has less of a draw than wrestling does. (Cal Poly and Santa Barbara have a good rivalry that draws well but most programs, even national contenders don't draw well.)

You're right, I misused home-and-away, but I was trying to differentiate it from events where you have many teams at one site (ie. Northeast Duals or Grapple at the Garden, just to name two, both of which I attended this year), or even tri-meets or quad meets.

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by the way, with regards to not knowing the dates and teams ahead of time, dont most other NCAA tournaments work this way? its all single elimination knock out tournaments with home fields until the finals, right? 99% sure DIII football worked that way, with the final being in Salem, Virginia every year. DIII lacrosse too, except they combined all the 3 divisions onto one site for the championships.

 

last minute scheduling is difficult but not impossible. and if the dual meets "count" toward NCAA tournament scoring then people care.

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SHP and Jaraslav,

 

1) awarding NCAA Tournament Points to the teams in the Duals National Championship will penalize those teams not in the duals before the diuals even begin. That will marginalize wrestling at those schools even more. Their year would look like this:

 

Nov: some wrestling

Dec: some wrestling

Jan: some wrestling

Feb: no wrestling, or very little wrestling

Mar: start NCAA Tourney already behind the 8 ball

 

What recruit wants to sign with this school?

 

 

2) Trying to equate this proposal to a basketball or football post season tourney is apples and oranges. Those events are the ONLY Championships those programs can compete for, so naturally they work. They also work because football and basketball are more popular than wrestling. Finally, they work because they are at the end of the season. Win the Championship and the Season is over.

 

This proposal has some teams competing while other teams are doing nothing. It takes an entire month. But then, oh wait! We have this other little thing for 3 more days at the end. How many fans are going to travel to see these 2 hour dual meets? Will they travel a 2nd time to get to the round of four, and then a third time to see if they win? And then a 4th time to go to NCAA Tournament? I don't think so.

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SHP and Jaraslav,

 

1) awarding NCAA Tournament Points to the teams in the Duals National Championship will penalize those teams not in the duals before the diuals even begin. That will marginalize wrestling at those schools even more. Their year would look like this:

 

Nov: some wrestling

Dec: some wrestling

Jan: some wrestling

Feb: no wrestling, or very little wrestling

Mar: start NCAA Tourney already behind the 8 ball

 

What recruit wants to sign with this school?

 

 

2) Trying to equate this proposal to a basketball or football post season tourney is apples and oranges. Those events are the ONLY Championships those programs can compete for, so naturally they work. They also work because football and basketball are more popular than wrestling. Finally, they work because they are at the end of the season. Win the Championship and the Season is over.

 

This proposal has some teams competing while other teams are doing nothing. It takes an entire month. But then, oh wait! We have this other little thing for 3 more days at the end. How many fans are going to travel to see these 2 hour dual meets? Will they travel a 2nd time to get to the round of four, and then a third time to see if they win? And then a 4th time to go to NCAA Tournament? I don't think so.

 

1) the duals tournament is not going to affect parity, nor will affect recruiting. the idea of the points (as far as im concerned anyway) it to force teams to compete in the duals tournament, not to increase parity.

 

2) yeah who wants a month of awesome wrestling when you can keep it to just 3 days! much better that way!

 

if you dont like the duals tournament thats fine, just come up with a better way to create meaningful, marketable college wrestling events, because right now there is not enough of them and its a serious problem for the sport.

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Jaraslav, please cite or link attendance figures for the National Duals for the past two years. I don't think they were robust at all, and in fact I think they were paltry at a number of venues. Maybe I'm wrong. Can you cite them? Thank you.

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SHP and Jaraslav,

 

1) awarding NCAA Tournament Points to the teams in the Duals National Championship will penalize those teams not in the duals before the diuals even begin. That will marginalize wrestling at those schools even more. Their year would look like this:

 

Nov: some wrestling

Dec: some wrestling

Jan: some wrestling

Feb: no wrestling, or very little wrestling

Mar: start NCAA Tourney already behind the 8 ball

 

What recruit wants to sign with this school?

 

2) Trying to equate this proposal to a basketball or football post season tourney is apples and oranges. Those events are the ONLY Championships those programs can compete for, so naturally they work. They also work because football and basketball are more popular than wrestling. Finally, they work because they are at the end of the season. Win the Championship and the Season is over.

 

This proposal has some teams competing while other teams are doing nothing. It takes an entire month. But then, oh wait! We have this other little thing for 3 more days at the end. How many fans are going to travel to see these 2 hour dual meets? Will they travel a 2nd time to get to the round of four, and then a third time to see if they win? And then a 4th time to go to NCAA Tournament? I don't think so.

 

You are dead on. Most of this is what I was trying to say in a message that inexplicably got knocked off this thread. most of the cogent critiques of this proposal--scheduling, excluded teams, travel, etc. are addressed in this thread.

Let's keep our eye on the ball when we decide to brainstorm like this. We want to support and sustain programs that are in jeopardy: we want to put more butts in the seats at run-of-the-mill DUALS: we want to demonstrate to unsympathetic AND sympathetic ADs/administrators that wrestling is worthy of their attention and support. Consider this the next time you dream up a scheme for wrestling's salvation.

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I do DVR matches I can't attend in person. But i'll always attend the regional and state tournaments. If the college duals were held in OKC, Stillwater, or Norman I'd want to attend in person. I've always taken high school kids to college meets, it their meets are at the same time as the college I can't do that. If you want large crowds for dual meets you need to attract the entire wrestling community in your state, not just the adult fans.

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Jaraslav, please cite or link attendance figures for the National Duals for the past two years. I don't think they were robust at all, and in fact I think they were paltry at a number of venues. Maybe I'm wrong. Can you cite them? Thank you.

There's a difference between everything that's been tried before and this framework, namely the part that, aside from the final four, each site would have exactly one dual at a time. No requirement to sit through wrestling for an entire day.

 

BTW, Oklahoma State Fair Arena, where the Oklahoma State HS tournament is held, would probably be a perfect size for this event.

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so we all agree on some big picture things: we want more support for existing teams and to grow the sport with more programs, correct?

 

so SHP put together a well thought out event designed to accomplish that. he asked for feedback, which has spurred this discussion. however, if you reject the whole premise, OK, but then what else shall we do to promote and grow the sport? if its not through competitive, meaningful, marketable duals, then what?

 

i have no stake in dual championship, i just want what we all do, and that to me sounds like the most effective way of accomplishing it. but i'd love to hear alternatives and other suggestions. there's always more that can be done and ways to improve the sport.

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so we all agree on some big picture things: we want more support for existing teams and to grow the sport with more programs, correct?

 

so SHP put together a well thought out event designed to accomplish that. he asked for feedback, which has spurred this discussion. however, if you reject the whole premise, OK, but then what else shall we do to promote and grow the sport? if its not through competitive, meaningful, marketable duals, then what?

 

i have no stake in dual championship, i just want what we all do, and that to me sounds like the most effective way of accomplishing it. but i'd love to hear alternatives and other suggestions. there's always more that can be done and ways to improve the sport.

Let me further your point...the person who probably benefits most from the current state of affairs, from the large tournaments in one place, and from having large other events in one place, is the author of this article. Keep in mind that included in this proposal is a reduction in the number of dates, but a partial exemption for single duals (in that single duals count as half of a date).

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