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SetonHallPirate

Reimagining NCAA wrestling...

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The sport does not need a duals tournament that by its very presence will have a cause and effect on many schools being both penalized for the NCAA Tournament AND twiddling their thumbs in the month of February.

 

And I claim they would be twiddling their thumbs because you can't schedule a dual in advance if you might be locked into this event and you won't schedule one hastily if you don't qualify or are knocked out.

 

Combine this with the need to travel multiple times to follow your squad plus the fact that only the fans of those four teams will want to attend the final days event. Then you have the whole penalty against the lesser schools whereby before they even show up at NCAA's they are already losing to a better team. They'd have no chance at all. Even if they wrestle great, they are doomed to failure.

 

Additionally, and I don't care how many times someone tells me this isn't so, but if you spend a month on one tournament and 3 days on the other, then you ARE saying that one is more important than the other. So we are now supposed to take our attention away from an event that we already love and know that it works. An event that sells out. An event where you have the 33 best wrestlers at every weight class. And now you want us to place more import on an event that has proven draws paltry crowds? Sorry, I just can't support that kind of thinking.

 

Here is the better use of our time and energy. Take the off season to have schools schedule the best duals they can come up with and then market, market, market them to every young wrestler in their area. The entire wrestling community has to be a part of this. That is the better way.

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I found some numbers. They tell the story quite well.

 

2013

Last year's National Duals Final was contested between Minnesota and Oklahoma State (Iowa and Missouri wrestled for 3rd place). On Minnesota's home mat the attendance for the National Duals final was ........

 

2,344

 

Minnesota draws 3x that many to their regular home dual meets. Now, that event went up head to head against the Minnesota High School State wrestling championships that same weekend, but the number is so paltry it underscores the problem.

 

 

2012

Was 2012 any better? Hardly. Here are the attendance numbers for the four sites where quarterfinal matches were held in 2012.

 

1,557 -Cornell

1,826 -Iowa St

3,412 -OklaSt

1,411 -Rutgers

 

http://wrestlingreport.com/current_news ... 14&t=34917

 

The 2012 finals were between the same two teams as the 2013 finals, but this match between Oklahoma State and Minnesota took place in Stillwater. The attendance was .....

 

4,453

 

These two schools wrestled in December of 2013 in a regular dual in the same arena in front of 2,667 fans. The National duals final had more fans, but is the 1786 fan difference going to change this sport? I don't think so.

 

How does 1,786 more fans to see these two schools help wrestling at Old Dominion, Virginia, Hofstra or Fresno State? I don't believe it does.

 

Worse, how does NOT wrestling help these lesser schools? And does NOT wrestling actually do more harm than good?

 

And finally, anything that moves us away from the NCAA Tournament, which is the crown jewel of wrestling in the USA, without known substantial benefits that offset any potential diminishing of our biggest event is in my judgment a poor idea.

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The sport does not need a duals tournament that by its very presence will have a cause and effect on many schools being both penalized for the NCAA Tournament AND twiddling their thumbs in the month of February.

 

a national duals does not in any way penalize any schools. all the schools will have the same shot at winning the championship as before. right now theres about 5 or 6 teams that have even a remote outside shot at winning a championship. the rest of the schools are involved only if they have a contending individual. that will not change at all. if you can imagine a scenario where any team is penalized i would like to hear it.

 

And I claim they would be twiddling their thumbs because you can't schedule a dual in advance if you might be locked into this event and you won't schedule one hastily if you don't qualify or are knocked out.

 

yes, the issue of what the non participating schools will do while the dual tournament is going on has been acknowledged. it is a negative consequence that has to be weighted against the potential benefits. i do not think it is insurmountable. such tournaments occur in just about every other NCAA sport at all levels and the other schools have adequately adapted.

 

Combine this with the need to travel multiple times to follow your squad plus the fact that only the fans of those four teams will want to attend the final days event. Then you have the whole penalty against the lesser schools whereby before they even show up at NCAA's they are already losing to a better team. They'd have no chance at all. Even if they wrestle great, they are doomed to failure.

 

that is the case now. no one thinks anyone but the top 6 teams are anything but "doomed to fail" when they show up at the NCAA tournament.

 

Additionally, and I don't care how many times someone tells me this isn't so, but if you spend a month on one tournament and 3 days on the other, then you ARE saying that one is more important than the other. So we are now supposed to take our attention away from an event that we already love and know that it works. An event that sells out. An event where you have the 33 best wrestlers at every weight class. And now you want us to place more import on an event that has proven draws paltry crowds? Sorry, I just can't support that kind of thinking.

 

by linking the dual tournament to the NCAA tournament with points, you would not be diminishing one for the other, you would be enhancing them both. the super bowl is not diminished because there are 3 extra rounds of playoffs compared to just one championship game.

 

Here is the better use of our time and energy. Take the off season to have schools schedule the best duals they can come up with and then market, market, market them to every young wrestler in their area. The entire wrestling community has to be a part of this. That is the better way.

 

they already are trying to schedule the best duals possible. everyone has been doing that since forever. we are looking for new ideas, not to sit on our hands and wait for the rest of the world to recognize the greatness of the NCAA tournament.

 

my opinion is you are far too concerned about potentially damaging the NCAA tournament. you are also too focused on butts in the seat rather than eyeballs on the screen. that is where the growth of ALL sports will be. not with 1,000 more fans sitting in a gym but with tens and then hundreds of thousands of fans watching in the comfort of their own home.

 

the NCAA tournament is not going anywhere and will continue to be the crown jewel of college wrestling. we dont have to pretend it's some fragile institution on the verge of collapse should we alter the point scoring system ever so slightly. the only thing that will undermine the tournament is if college wrestling does not change it's current course and begin growing rather than shrinking.

 

i'm open to ideas that are not a national duals tournament. i do not at all think the answer is to continue doing what we're doing. thats been the attitude for decades and the results speak for themselves.

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by linking the dual tournament to the NCAA tournament with points, you would not be diminishing one for the other, you would be enhancing them both.

 

You'd be penalizing at NCAA's those teams that either did not participate at Duals or did not finish #1 at Duals. The point system thrown out by SHP basically gives the dual champion a huge advantage at the NCAA Tournament. That advantage is large when compared to even the 2nd place team, and it grows ever larger when compared to each team farther down the ladder.

 

In many years whomever wins the duals could be penciled in to win NCAA's in advance. Bad idea. Winning duals should have no bearing at NCAA's.

 

Each year they try to gimmick up a new idea to take hold and none of them ever increase the popularity of the sport. One of these days the powers that be will realize they are going about this in the wrong way.

 

And one more thing. Look at who pushed the hardest for all of this a few years ago. Schools on the cusp but just not at the top. This isn't about popularity of the sport, its about what those coaches think are best for their schools.

 

If this were truly about growing the sport they'd be able to elucidate a sensible explanation for how this benefits the lesser schools, and to date they have been unable to do so.

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If this were truly about growing the sport they'd be able to elucidate a sensible explanation for how this benefits the lesser schools, and to date they have been unable to do so.

 

sure, np. the explanation is built on the platform of a national duals tournament. colleges have fantastic brand appeal to their students and alumni. a duals tournament get them more involved and their college wrestling teams and creates a great product for broadcasting. this increases the popularity and demand of wrestling, diverting more resources to existing programs of all caliber, lesser and greater.

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In many years whomever wins the duals could be penciled in to win NCAA's in advance. Bad idea. Winning duals should have no bearing at NCAA's.

 

so change the point system so that it doesnt automatically crown the champ after the duals tournament. the purpose of the duals is not to crown a champ ahead of the NCAA individual tournament, its to force all the teams to compete.

 

i dont know why dual strength should have NO bearing. why do you get pin points or advancement points? why dont champions get 25 points? why not 30? why award points to 7th and 8th place? why not stop at 5th? its all arbitrary to a certain degree.

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I think we will find that the BCS playoff is going to be even more popular and more exciting than the bowl system that just expired. And if so, it would tell me that the popularity grows with momentum and build up.

 

I think it is important to have some time between events so that information can be spread. One of the problems we have in wrestling is that by the time information trickles out through the wrestling community about an upset match or dual in a tournament format it has become moot because the next match has already happened. Even in conference duals when the results of an upset trickle through the question becomes 'what does it mean' and it is hard to explain that it is simply for pride and that the results have no bearing on NCAA qualification, or championships and actually the NCAAs are decided in an entirely different way.

 

I think the move to the regionals was a great move. I never expected it to be a panacea but I think it was a great move. The issue was the lack of participation by top programs that hurt it coupled with the fact that people seemed more likely to rule it a failure if the first rollout was not as successful as some people thought it could be down the road as the popularity expanded.

 

For the record, I think the increase in parity at the top, very much helps the smaller schools even if they don't qualify for the national duals.

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Nov: some wrestling

Dec: some wrestling

Jan: some wrestling

Feb: no wrestling, or very little wrestling

Mar: start NCAA Tourney already behind the 8 ball

 

This seems like a show-stopper to me. I presume that most teams would not agree to this. A solution is to put the month-long dual meet tourney (April Matness?) AFTER the NCAA tourney. That way teams' seasons end either at the NCAA Tourney, or over one of the next few weekends when they lose a dual. Of course, I doubt most would agree to this either. People like having the NCAA Tourney last.

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Until SHP can articulate

 

1) the evidence that duals have been a huge plus in the past

AND

2) that these duals will help teams ranked 20 and lower, or even 12 and lower (they won't)

 

Then this is going nowhere.

 

4 pages and not one person has illustrated how an ODU, or Hofstra, or Bloomsburg, or Fresno State will benefit from this idea. Forget who wins this contrived event for a second and think of the overall benefit to the sport of wrestling and ALL of the schools that make up the sport, not just the top few schools, and when anyone in the thread can articulate the benefits to the lower ranked schools please spell it out cause I don't see it.

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Until SHP can articulate

 

1) the evidence that duals have been a huge plus in the past

AND

2) that these duals will help teams ranked 20 and lower, or even 12 and lower (they won't)

 

Then this is going nowhere.

 

4 pages and not one person has illustrated how an ODU, or Hofstra, or Bloomsburg, or Fresno State will benefit from this idea. Forget who wins this contrived event for a second and think of the overall benefit to the sport of wrestling and ALL of the schools that make up the sport, not just the top few schools, and when anyone in the thread can articulate the benefits to the lower ranked schools please spell it out cause I don't see it.

 

its been articulated. many times actually. the idea is to do SOMETHING that will generate MORE interest in the sport of wrestling. it will be a rising tide that will lift all boats. D1 wrestling will get more money, and some of that money will go to every school.

 

but if you want, forget the national duals tournament for the moment. is the current situation ideal for the ODUs & Hofstras of the world? what SHOULD we do to help these programs?

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Bump. A little blue birdie tells me this discussion probably isn't over yet...

 

Cael Sanderson just tweeted about your plan, and he said pretty much exactly what I said above. Congrats, you got the Coaches Assoc. attention. I don't think it goes beyond talk, though.

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Bump. A little blue birdie tells me this discussion probably isn't over yet...

 

Cael Sanderson just tweeted about your plan, and he said pretty much exactly what I said above. Congrats, you got the Coaches Assoc. attention. I don't think it goes beyond talk, though.

Does he realize he'd likely get two sold-out duals at home every year during February, when students are on campus and relatively early in the semester?

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i dont understand tweets like this: "So teams who do well at National Duals start NCAA tourney with a big lead. Confusing, complicated, and misguided plan."

 

its not at all confusing or complicated. he summed up the essence in one sentence. the misguided part is a lot more subjective and it would be nice if Cael took some time to explain why he thinks this and maybe even provide an alternative.

 

sustainable growth is what we're all after. making no changes doesn't get us there. Cael's trying to present his position as looking out for the small programs but to me it looks like hes hanging the small programs out to dry while protecting his own self interests.

 

Is his plan to help the small programs really just keep doing what we're doing?

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Cael's trying to present his position as looking out for the small programs but to me it looks like hes hanging the small programs out to dry while protecting his own self interests.

 

 

Disagree.

 

As I stated before this thread was bumped, SHP's plan is the one that hurts the small programs. They are left out of the duals entirely OR their participation becomes limited. One or the other. Then, for their having fallen in line with those that want this plan their reward is to be penalized before they even start wresting at the NCAA Tournament. Penalized by the winners of duals carrying duals points over the the Tournament.

 

If it is bad for the small programs like ODU, Hofstra or UT Chattanooga, then I don't like it. This doesn't even take into account how much down time would exist for the early losers in SHP's plan.

 

Do they give the winner of Track duals extra points at the NCAA Individual track tournament?

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The old guard need to start sending memos around to combat the tweets.

 

It will help if they make suggestions to vastly improve the plan.

 

I have no dog in this fight. But it does seem a bit odd that Twitter is a vehicle of choice. Leaders typically work out a plan diligently behind the scenes, then present their message as a unit. Is Cael not part of the leadership group?

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The old guard need to start sending memos around to combat the tweets.

 

It will help if they make suggestions to vastly improve the plan.

 

I have no dog in this fight. But it does seem a bit odd that Twitter is a vehicle of choice. Leaders typically work out a plan diligently behind the scenes, then present their message as a unit. Is Cael not part of the leadership group?

 

IMO, there is no single leadership group. This is Koll and JRob with a poor plan on one side with Cael Sanderson, Tom Brands and Smith on the other side.

 

This won't work without Sanderson, Brands and Smith being on board. Sandreson doesn't like it, and I'm pretty confident that Brands doesn't like it either. I think Smith is closer to those two than to Koll and JRob.

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Cael's trying to present his position as looking out for the small programs but to me it looks like hes hanging the small programs out to dry while protecting his own self interests.

 

 

Disagree.

 

As I stated before this thread was bumped, SHP's plan is the one that hurts the small programs. They are left out of the duals entirely OR their participation becomes limited. One or the other. Then, for their having fallen in line with those that want this plan their reward is to be penalized before they even start wresting at the NCAA Tournament. Penalized by the winners of duals carrying duals points over the the Tournament.

 

If it is bad for the small programs like ODU, Hofstra or UT Chattanooga, then I don't like it. This doesn't even take into account how much down time would exist for the early losers in SHP's plan.

 

Do they give the winner of Track duals extra points at the NCAA Individual track tournament?

 

you keep saying it will hurt ODU, Hofstra and Chattanooga but actually it wont at all. they'll have the same chance of winning the national championship as before. zero. BUT, they may be involved in the National Duals tournament by being their conference representative. also, ALL SCHOOLS will benefit by the enhanced profile of the sport.

 

now, lets here a counter proposal to help the small schools. just give them points before the national tournament? penalize the teams that scored the most points in the previous year? if the proposed new system is so terrible for the small schools then so be it. but lets hear it from them, and not from the biggest school in the sport right now.

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IMO, there is no single leadership group. This is Koll and JRob with a poor plan on one side with Cael Sanderson, Tom Brands and Smith on the other side.

 

This won't work without Sanderson, Brands and Smith being on board. Sandreson doesn't like it, and I'm pretty confident that Brands doesn't like it either. I think Smith is closer to those two than to Koll and JRob.

 

As yes, Sanderson, Brands and Smith, the voice of the small schools of college wrestling.

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Golf, Swimming, Track and Field, Cross Country, Fencing and Gymnastics are all inherently individual sports. They have a team component at the high school and NCAA levels.

 

Can anyone here point to one sport at any level where they give points to teams at their championships in advance of their championships based on dual results?

 

NCAA swimming? Track and Field? Cross Country? Anything?

 

Also, this thread is 4 pages long now and no one, not even SHP, has clearly defined how small schools actually benefit from this proposal. Anyone got anything? Anything???

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