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SetonHallPirate

Reimagining NCAA wrestling...

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Golf, Swimming, Track and Field, Cross Country, Fencing and Gymnastics are all inherently individual sports. They have a team component at the high school and NCAA levels.

 

Can anyone here point to one sport at any level where they give points to teams at their championships in advance of their championships based on dual results?

 

NCAA swimming? Track and Field? Cross Country? Anything?

 

Also, this thread is 4 pages long now and no one, not even SHP, has clearly defined how small schools actually benefit from this proposal. Anyone got anything? Anything???

 

ok so stick with the current model and college wrestling can be as popular as NCAA Swimming!

 

we've been talking nonstop about how duals are TV/broadcast friendly and easily marketed to college sports fans. more eyeballs = more money = small schools benefit. its all very simple. ignoring that at this point is just being difficult.

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Golf, Swimming, Track and Field, Cross Country, Fencing and Gymnastics are all inherently individual sports. They have a team component at the high school and NCAA levels.

 

Can anyone here point to one sport at any level where they give points to teams at their championships in advance of their championships based on dual results?

 

NCAA swimming? Track and Field? Cross Country? Anything?

 

Also, this thread is 4 pages long now and no one, not even SHP, has clearly defined how small schools actually benefit from this proposal. Anyone got anything? Anything???

a. It gets more fans in the stands for regular season duals that now matter. How often do you hear about the NFL tiebreaker report during the last four weeks of the regular season, and the race for the playoffs in the other three sports. If it sounds like I'm parroting the NWCA line here, there's a reason, it's because it's 100% accurate.

b. Specific to this plan, it guarantees 16 of the 24 teams in the field a home dual during the month of February, when students are on campus, but aren't stressing about finals.

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a. It gets more fans in the stands for regular season duals that now matter. How often do you hear about the NFL tiebreaker report during the last four weeks of the regular season, and the race for the playoffs in the other three sports. If it sounds like I'm parroting the NWCA line here, there's a reason, it's because it's 100% accurate.

b. Specific to this plan, it guarantees 16 of the 24 teams in the field a home dual during the month of February, when students are on campus, but aren't stressing about finals.

 

Point a. Attendance has been quite poor at the NWCA National Duals in past years. This is a well established point of fact.

 

Point b. The top 16 teams already have duals in the month of February.

 

SHP, my take from your plan, and this is bolstered by Jaroslav's comment that the small schools have ZERO chance at NCAA's. Same as always, he said, is that this plan is really about getting a few schools that currently draw poorly a better home opponent than they currently have (this is of dubious merit) AND some extra points at the NCAA Tournament, with the emphasis on the points at the tournament.

 

If you put Minnesota or OKlahoma State on Cornell's campus then Cornell will draw better than they would if they were hosting, say, Columbia. Is that what this is all about?

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Two more points.

 

The nebulous and arbitrary claim of "a rising tide lifts all boats" is presumptuous that there will actually be a rising tide. But that is no given. They have drawn the top teams for years to one version of this or another and look at where we are.

 

Two, no one answered my other question as to what other inherently individual sport has done anything so contrived as this.

 

You wanna make wrestling more popular? A) Make it more popular at the youth level. This is the single biggest issue with wrestling. B) Add another weight class at 220lbs. By definition you'd have 10% more wrestlers competing, 10% more wrestlers with families and friends to bring to matches.

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a. It gets more fans in the stands for regular season duals that now matter. How often do you hear about the NFL tiebreaker report during the last four weeks of the regular season, and the race for the playoffs in the other three sports. If it sounds like I'm parroting the NWCA line here, there's a reason, it's because it's 100% accurate.

b. Specific to this plan, it guarantees 16 of the 24 teams in the field a home dual during the month of February, when students are on campus, but aren't stressing about finals.

 

Point a. Attendance has been quite poor at the NWCA National Duals in past years. This is a well established point of fact.

 

Point b. The top 16 teams already have duals in the month of February.

 

SHP, my take from your plan, and this is bolstered by Jaroslav's comment that the small schools have ZERO chance at NCAA's. Same as always, he said, is that this plan is really about getting a few schools that currently draw poorly a better home opponent than they currently have (this is of dubious merit) AND some extra points at the NCAA Tournament, with the emphasis on the points at the tournament.

 

If you put Minnesota or OKlahoma State on Cornell's campus then Cornell will draw better than they would if they were hosting, say, Columbia. Is that what this is all about?

No. If you put Minnesota or Oklahoma State on Cornell's campus as a National Quarterfinal they will draw better than if you have Minnesota or Oklahoma State on Cornell's campus as a November dual. (and by the way, Minnesota wrestled Cornell in November of 2011...Cornell beat them. It was two days before Minnesota beat Penn State in Cael's most recent defeat at Rec Hall...I was at both duals that weekend)

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No. If you put Minnesota or Oklahoma State on Cornell's campus as a National Quarterfinal they will draw better than if you have Minnesota or Oklahoma State on Cornell's campus as a November dual. (and by the way, Minnesota wrestled Cornell in November of 2011...Cornell beat them. It was two days before Minnesota beat Penn State in Cael's most recent defeat at Rec Hall...I was at both duals that weekend)

 

OK, let's take this one step farther.

 

When Minnesota is at Cornell what can't they be doing? They can't be hosting a match back in Minnesota. So you add to Cornell by subtracting from Minnesota.

 

And aside from Minnesota not being able to host a match at home, how does Minnesota being at Cornell help UT Chattanooga or Fresno State?

 

And let's say Cornell were to beat Minnesota in February on their campus due in some part to a stalling call against a Minnesota wrestler that many disagree with, you are then going to add insult to injury in March by granting Cornell yet a second advantage from the ref call in February that everyone already feels was wrong and do so at a completely different event as a reward for what happened at the first event? This scenario gets even more problematic if it occurs in the semi finals or quarterfinals as the delta between what a team can bring in terms of pre event points at the Tournament finishing, say, 5th or 3rd as opposed to 1rst, only widens. The greater the delta the more fans might stay at home thinking their team has no chance.

 

No history that this will work. No history it adds to attendance. And it is convoluted, arbitrary, and could actually hurt the sport by causing some to feel the Tournament is now inherently unfair to certain teams before it even begins.

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Wow, strong points on both sides of this issue.

 

I sort of like the idea of a dual championship, if the logistics/scheduling can be worked out while keeping our big dance individual tournament right where it is in March.

 

Again, I'm no expert on the logistics and timing of a dual national tourney, but geez, if they did get it to go, this would be great for our sport overall. Sure the Hoftras and others may not get invited, but look at how many NCAA basketball teams that don't get invited to their dance. Every year some big time programs get snubbed on Selection Sunday.

 

If they got it to work, IMO, a dual tourney leading to a Final Four of wrestling powerhouses would enhance all of college wrestling through more TV exposure and revenue. Again, looks like there are definitely logistical challenges (scheduling/travel/timing, etc.), but if they can pull it off, I'm all for it.

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No. If you put Minnesota or Oklahoma State on Cornell's campus as a National Quarterfinal they will draw better than if you have Minnesota or Oklahoma State on Cornell's campus as a November dual. (and by the way, Minnesota wrestled Cornell in November of 2011...Cornell beat them. It was two days before Minnesota beat Penn State in Cael's most recent defeat at Rec Hall...I was at both duals that weekend)

 

OK, let's take this one step farther.

 

When Minnesota is at Cornell what can't they be doing? They can't be hosting a match back in Minnesota. So you add to Cornell by subtracting from Minnesota.

 

And aside from Minnesota not being able to host a match at home, how does Minnesota being at Cornell help UT Chattanooga or Fresno State?

 

And let's say Cornell were to beat Minnesota in February on their campus due in some part to a stalling call against a Minnesota wrestler that many disagree with, you are then going to add insult to injury in March by granting Cornell yet a second advantage from the ref call in February that everyone already feels was wrong and do so at a completely different event as a reward for what happened at the first event?

 

No history that this will work. No history it adds to attendance. And it is convoluted, arbitrary, and could actually hurt the sport by causing some to feel the Tournament is now inherently unfair to certain teams before it even begins.

Let me show you a real-life example of where this works, in men's soccer:

 

Wake Forest at Elon, September 17, 2013: 707 fans

Clemson at Elon, NCAA First Round, November 21, 2013: 3,348 fans

 

BTW, I checked that simply because it was a smaller school hosting a first-round matchup, against comparable opponents versus a regular season dual. (Wake Forest was actually ranked 9th in the nation at the time Elon played them, whereas Clemson was ranked 24th at the time of their matchup.)

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Let me show you a real-life example of where this works, in men's soccer:

 

Wake Forest at Elon, September 17, 2013: 707 fans

Clemson at Elon, NCAA First Round, November 21, 2013: 3,348 fans

 

BTW, I checked that simply because it was a smaller school hosting a first-round matchup, against comparable opponents versus a regular season dual. (Wake Forest was actually ranked 9th in the nation at the time Elon played them, whereas Clemson was ranked 24th at the time of their matchup.)

 

Like your soccer regular season vs. post season analogy, last year's NCAA Tournament had more fans than any other regular season wrestling event too.

 

The difference is that soccer is not an individual sport, it is inherently a team sport with one avenue of competition for Championship play. You are trying to put a square peg in a round hole with this analogy.

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BTW, SHP, have you been able to find a single example of points being carried over from a dual meet to a tournament event in any inherently individual sport? In other words, what NCAA Championship is contested where the score is NOT 0-0 at the beginning of the Championship, something your proposal would require?

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BTW, SHP, have you been able to find a single example of points being carried over from a dual meet to a tournament event in any inherently individual sport? In other words, what NCAA Championship is contested where the score is NOT 0-0 at the beginning of the Championship, something your proposal would require?

Tennis is an inherently individual sport, and yet their national championship is decided ENTIRELY based on a dual-meet setup, with the individual national championship meaning absolutely nothing.

 

However, you're right, there isn't a single example of a bifurcated setup like the one suggested here.

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BTW, SHP, have you been able to find a single example of points being carried over from a dual meet to a tournament event in any inherently individual sport? In other words, what NCAA Championship is contested where the score is NOT 0-0 at the beginning of the Championship, something your proposal would require?

Tennis is an inherently individual sport, and yet their national championship is decided ENTIRELY based on a dual-meet setup, with the individual national championship meaning absolutely nothing.

 

However, you're right, there isn't a single example of a bifurcated setup like the one suggested here.

 

There you go.

 

Golf has both an individual and a team championship, but points don't transfer between the competitions. Same with Track and Field. Life is fine that way. Wrestling already has National Duals, and they already have the NCAA wrestling Championships in March.

 

I am not 100% against a National Duals, but I am 100% against the idea of awarding points at the current Tournament based on Duals. I think the whole idea of the point transfer is to force attendance.

 

My take is that so long as a National Duals is a stand alone event that looks appealing then teams will participate. Maybe not in all years, but so what? If Minnesota wins a National Duals which does not include some other top team, this should in no way diminish Minnesota's accomplishment nor should the other top non participating team complain.

 

I could care less if Team A claims a Duals Championship while Team B claims the current Tournament. I just don't see how point transfers help anything. You wouldn't want Penn State to get 3 points vs. every team they face in next year's Duals by virtue of winning the NCAA wrestling Championship this year, would you? Be honest. What team's fans are going to relish traveling to Penn State's Rec Hall to watch a match where the score is 3-0 against their team before the 125's are even on the mat?

 

And if you agree that teams participating in the National Duals should not gain a point advantage such as described above due to what happened at the most recent NCAA Wrestling Championships, then how can you want points awarded at the NCAA Wrestling Championships based on the most recent National Duals Championship?

 

Can you not see the total arbitrary nature of this?

 

If you want to award some sort of National Championship for Duals then do so. Just don't take away from the Crown Jewel of the Sport in the process.

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One more thing on my part. I want everything in March to stay the same. The individual and team champs right there like always.

 

Just looking at it from a basketball perspective where is there is build-up and big drama leading to a Final Four and Championship. Hope wrestling can do something similar if logistics work out. Don't know if it will, and certainly want to consider and respect the student athletes. I understand concern for schoolwork, training, traveling, schedules, healing injuries, and peaking for NCAA's.

 

Would be fun to sit on a committee and see if this is at all possible.

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BTW, SHP, have you been able to find a single example of points being carried over from a dual meet to a tournament event in any inherently individual sport? In other words, what NCAA Championship is contested where the score is NOT 0-0 at the beginning of the Championship, something your proposal would require?

 

the ryder cup takes golf, an inherently individual sport, and conjures out of thin air a team championship.

 

it bores me to tears and i only can watch if it i want to induce a nap but it seems to be pretty popular with other folks.

 

fencing at the olympics has both individual and team championships.

 

there are plenty pther examples but more importantly, who cares? sports are just made up rules. you can do whatever you want.

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Two more points.

 

The nebulous and arbitrary claim of "a rising tide lifts all boats" is presumptuous that there will actually be a rising tide. But that is no given. They have drawn the top teams for years to one version of this or another and look at where we are.

 

Two, no one answered my other question as to what other inherently individual sport has done anything so contrived as this.

 

You wanna make wrestling more popular? A) Make it more popular at the youth level. This is the single biggest issue with wrestling. B) Add another weight class at 220lbs. By definition you'd have 10% more wrestlers competing, 10% more wrestlers with families and friends to bring to matches.

 

not to be rude but "a rising tide lifts all boats" is neither arbitrary nor nebulous. you also used presumptuous wrong.

 

you want to make wrestling more popular at the youth level? have better dual meets on tv for kids to watch.

 

i would support adding a 220lb weight class as well but doesn't preclude D1 from adding a dual tournament component to the national championship race.

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BTW, SHP, have you been able to find a single example of points being carried over from a dual meet to a tournament event in any inherently individual sport? In other words, what NCAA Championship is contested where the score is NOT 0-0 at the beginning of the Championship, something your proposal would require?

 

the ryder cup takes golf, an inherently individual sport, and conjures out of thin air a team championship.

 

fencing at the olympics has both individual and team championships.

 

there are plenty pther examples but more importantly, who cares? sports are just made up rules. you can do whatever you want.

 

Point 1. The Ryder Cup doesn't carry over to Golf's other majors. The European Players that won the Ryder Cup in 2012 didn't get a 5 stroke advantage at the 2013 Masters or US Open.

 

Point 2. I have already conceded that other sports have dual meet type champions. The NWCA already crowns a dual meet champion. Minnesota won it last year. No problem. Carry on.

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not to be rude but "a rising tide lifts all boats" is neither arbitrary nor nebulous. you also used presumptuous wrong.

 

i would support adding a 220lb weight class as well but doesn't preclude D1 from adding a dual tournament component to the national championship race.

 

It can hardly be presumptious given the NWCA has had their National Duals Tournament for 25 Years and they can't draw more than 2344 to last year's Championship event???

 

And again, tell me how Boston U. benefitted from those 2344 fans sitting at Minnesota to watch last year's NWCA National Duals final? Considering they are dropping the sport I'd say they got nothing out of it.

 

As already addressed, carrying over points from one event to another is arbitrary. It is pointless. It is the kind of silly thinking that rules this sport and took it to the edge of being thrown out of the Olympics. Notice who the larger figures were in the charge to get it reinstated? Guys like Sanderson and Brands. Guys who recognize, rightly so, that this idea of SHP's is arbitrary.

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yeah i cant imagine high school schedules being a major obstacle. you dont want to be inconsiderate but the priority is getting premier, marketable events. that starts with D1 NCAA wrestling.

 

Unless the State has an "ALL in One" type State tournament. Several States do that, and scheduling for the venues happen a year or two in advance.

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yeah i cant imagine high school schedules being a major obstacle. you dont want to be inconsiderate but the priority is getting premier, marketable events. that starts with D1 NCAA wrestling.

 

headshuck is in the other thread using last year's Minnesota high school state championships as a reason for why so few people showed up at the NWCA event.

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The other was Cael wasn't there.

 

Proof that Cael > NWCA

 

Want more proof? Cael was at Rec hall drawing 2.5 times as many wrestling fans as NWCA drew to their "national" event.

 

NWCA was so poorly managed and marketed that 3 of the top 4 teams from last year, Iowa, Missouri and Oklahoma State decided to not return.

 

Get a real budget, NWCA. Get a real bank account with real money in it. A few more 000's at the end of the account balance, then spend some of that money to market your product. Then start calling people out.

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As already addressed, carrying over points from one event to another is arbitrary. It is pointless. It is the kind of silly thinking that rules this sport and took it to the edge of being thrown out of the Olympics. Notice who the larger figures were in the charge to get it reinstated? Guys like Sanderson and Brands. Guys who recognize, rightly so, that this idea of SHP's is arbitrary.

 

you're using a definition of arbitrary of which i am unfamiliar. the point of carrying the points over is to force all the top teams to compete. it also raises the stakes of each dual. the rule has a specific purpose. it is the opposite of arbitrary or capricious, as least as far i understand the definition of the word.

 

also comparing it to the previous national duals tournaments is disingenuous. those tournaments had nothing at stake and didnt have all the top teams competing.

 

but whatever, we're talking in circles. keep fighting for more of the same. my vote is for change.

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The other was Cael wasn't there.

 

Proof that Cael > NWCA

 

Want more proof? Cael was at Rec hall drawing 2.5 times as many wrestling fans as NWCA drew to their "national" event.

 

NWCA was so poorly managed and marketed that 3 of the top 4 teams from last year, Iowa, Missouri and Oklahoma State decided to not return.

 

Get a real budget, NWCA. Get a real bank account with real money in it. A few more 000's at the end of the account balance, then spend some of that money to market your product. Then start calling people out.

 

hah, speaking of presumptuous. great plan, the NWCA should totally just do that.

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I attended the 2012 Ryder Cup at Medina. There is nothing boring about it. It is the one time golfers get to play for their country, not themselves. The stories of how nervous they get when trying to make a crucial putt to win or tie a match is exceptional.

 

I still think John Smith has the right idea about making wrestling a 2nd semester sport. It would make having a viable dual meet national championship much more viable. Travel in February and early March is just too difficult and unpredictable with blizzards, etc. It is also the flu season. In the spring travel wouldn't be a problem, you are competing with basketball, and baseball isn't in full stride yet. It is a down period for ESPN and FOX in terms of built in sports programming.

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