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JohnnyThompsonnum1

"There would have been more 4 timers had freshmen been....

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Chuck Jean, NCAA Champ as Freshman and sophomore in 1969, 1970, just as likely to have won 4 titles as Hodge, Simons and Uetake, if not for his appetite for venison.

R.I.P. Old Sammy

 

3150a2042006f77a9d351e2a122a8e29

 

 

Thought it was Big Jim, not Old Sammy that "inspired" Chuck Jean's move from Ames to Alamosa?????

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I would put Lowell Lange from Cornell College in Iowa as another that would of been a heavy favorite to be a 4X champ if not for injury from car accident.

 

Lange's only loss in college was when he went from 136 to 155 to wrestle ISTC's future 3X champ, Keith Young. He walked through the 136# field at NCAA's that year (1949).

 

Want to learn more about the "Dream Team of 1947"? Join me tomorrow at the Matman Invitational and I'll show you the 1947 NCAA & AAU championship trophies and the photos of all the Cornell College members of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame.

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Chuck Jean, NCAA Champ as Freshman and sophomore in 1969, 1970, just as likely to have won 4 titles as Hodge, Simons and Uetake, if not for his appetite for venison.

R.I.P. Old Sammy

 

3150a2042006f77a9d351e2a122a8e29

 

 

Thought it was Big Jim, not Old Sammy that "inspired" Chuck Jean's move from Ames to Alamosa?????

You could very well be correct, Toss4Five. You know how those old stories go.

 

The Minneapolis Star Tribune ran an article titled "Jean Among Wrestling Legends at Albert Lea" back in the late '90s. Great read - and in it Chuck Jean relates the story of the buck and his leaving Ames not long afterwards. He called the deer Sammy, but he'd obviously already drank a lot of beer that night - so maybe it was Big Jim. Anyway, a teammate bet him a 12-pack that he couldn't take the buck...and the rest is history.

 

Here's a link to another forum containing a copy of the newspaper article. Good stuff!

.

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Yojo and Hodge are the only locks on the list so far.

Agreed and that was my initial point all along. Others however are regarded as, "Would've been four time champs" had they had the opportunity and I'm just not sold on that prediction given the 13 three time champions that there are who didn't win as freshmen.

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MSU158 not sure what you mean?

 

You can start a line of argument on almost ANY topic with "just because a happened doesn't mean b is true." I used an example where the data supports the argument more than the dissenting argument(which is what you did) does.

 

So to be very clear, Although it is not a guarantee it would be safe to assume that the same ref choosing against a 2x champion twice could hint at some bias.

 

Again, to be clear, it is not a guarantee that polar ice caps melting is a direct result of global warming but the data seems to support this.

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Dick Hutton, Oklahoma State heavyweight immediately after World War II, came incredibly close to becoming the first four-time NCAA champ. He was part of that group that WAS ELIGIBLE to wrestle varsity as a freshman (to address a shortage of eligible college wrestlers after the war), and won the unlimited title at the 1947, '48 and 1950 NCAAs. He was a finalist at the 1949 NCAAs at Colorado State, wrestling Minnesota's Verne Gagne... but was Kesseled by referee Finn Erikson who disallowed/missed/ignored a last-second takedown that would have won him the match, and his third title. Instead, there was a tie... and back then, there was no overtime. Winners were determined by the ref... and the ref raised Gagne's hand.

 

Flash-forward one year, to the 1950 NCAAs. Hutton is again in the finals, wrestling Fred Stoeker of what is now University of Northern Iowa in Stoeker's home gym (now West Gym). Again, match ends in a tie. Again, the ref is Finn Erikson. Again, ref raises the other guy's arm... but, thankfully, the NCAA, perceiving the injustice of the '49 NCAAs, had tweaked the rules, allowing matside officials to override a ref decision they thought was wrong. The matside officials determined Hutton had won.

 

Later, the three-time Cowboy hwt champ Hutton said something like, "I don't think that ref liked me."

 

Hutton and Gagne both became pro rasslin' champs.

 

Another Oklahoma State great of the past that could have been a 4x was Stanley Henson, who lost only one match in his Cowboy career in the late 1930s. AWN named him the best college wrestler of the 1930s.

 

BTW, both Henson and Gagne are still alive. Hutton died a decade ago.

 

Mark

 

Interesting bit of wrestling history. Thanks for sharing it.

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Dick Hutton, Oklahoma State heavyweight immediately after World War II, came incredibly close to becoming the first four-time NCAA champ. He was part of that group that WAS ELIGIBLE to wrestle varsity as a freshman (to address a shortage of eligible college wrestlers after the war), and won the unlimited title at the 1947, '48 and 1950 NCAAs. He was a finalist at the 1949 NCAAs at Colorado State, wrestling Minnesota's Verne Gagne... but was Kesseled by referee Finn Erikson who disallowed/missed/ignored a last-second takedown that would have won him the match, and his third title. Instead, there was a tie... and back then, there was no overtime. Winners were determined by the ref... and the ref raised Gagne's hand.

 

Flash-forward one year, to the 1950 NCAAs. Hutton is again in the finals, wrestling Fred Stoeker of what is now University of Northern Iowa in Stoeker's home gym (now West Gym). Again, match ends in a tie. Again, the ref is Finn Erikson. Again, ref raises the other guy's arm... but, thankfully, the NCAA, perceiving the injustice of the '49 NCAAs, had tweaked the rules, allowing matside officials to override a ref decision they thought was wrong. The matside officials determined Hutton had won.

 

Later, the three-time Cowboy hwt champ Hutton said something like, "I don't think that ref liked me."

 

Hutton and Gagne both became pro rasslin' champs.

 

Another Oklahoma State great of the past that could have been a 4x was Stanley Henson, who lost only one match in his Cowboy career in the late 1930s. AWN named him the best college wrestler of the 1930s.

 

BTW, both Henson and Gagne are still alive. Hutton died a decade ago.

 

Mark

Just because ref Finn Erikson thought Hutton's opponents won the match does not mean that he had anything against Hutton.

 

One could also raise the issue that a wrestler should never allow the referee to be the one to decide who wins. That said, if you were to ask the late, great Richard Avis Heron Hutton, he might respectively disagree. (BTW, much of the information in my original post came from the late, great Jairus "Jay" Hammond, who knew a thing or two about the greats.)

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Dick Hutton, Oklahoma State heavyweight immediately after World War II, came incredibly close to becoming the first four-time NCAA champ. He was part of that group that WAS ELIGIBLE to wrestle varsity as a freshman (to address a shortage of eligible college wrestlers after the war), and won the unlimited title at the 1947, '48 and 1950 NCAAs. He was a finalist at the 1949 NCAAs at Colorado State, wrestling Minnesota's Verne Gagne... but was Kesseled by referee Finn Erikson who disallowed/missed/ignored a last-second takedown that would have won him the match, and his third title. Instead, there was a tie... and back then, there was no overtime. Winners were determined by the ref... and the ref raised Gagne's hand.

 

Flash-forward one year, to the 1950 NCAAs. Hutton is again in the finals, wrestling Fred Stoeker of what is now University of Northern Iowa in Stoeker's home gym (now West Gym). Again, match ends in a tie. Again, the ref is Finn Erikson. Again, ref raises the other guy's arm... but, thankfully, the NCAA, perceiving the injustice of the '49 NCAAs, had tweaked the rules, allowing matside officials to override a ref decision they thought was wrong. The matside officials determined Hutton had won.

 

Later, the three-time Cowboy hwt champ Hutton said something like, "I don't think that ref liked me."

 

Hutton and Gagne both became pro rasslin' champs.

 

Another Oklahoma State great of the past that could have been a 4x was Stanley Henson, who lost only one match in his Cowboy career in the late 1930s. AWN named him the best college wrestler of the 1930s.

 

BTW, both Henson and Gagne are still alive. Hutton died a decade ago.

 

Mark

You mean the same Finn Erikson who was the coach for West Waterloo High in Iowa? That's interesting...

 

Yes, indeed.

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Chuck Jean, NCAA Champ as Freshman and sophomore in 1969, 1970, just as likely to have won 4 titles as Hodge, Simons and Uetake, if not for his appetite for venison.

R.I.P. Old Sammy

 

3150a2042006f77a9d351e2a122a8e29

 

 

Thought it was Big Jim, not Old Sammy that "inspired" Chuck Jean's move from Ames to Alamosa?????

 

I don't think that the "deer incident" is what brought about the transfer of Jean to Adams State.

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Dick Hutton was interviewed in one of those pro wrestling magazines and described his amateur career. Here's what he said about the controversial referee's decision that went against him:

 

Verne was an outstanding wrestler. Not only on the mat but how he sized up an opponent. He knew

if he came into me, I would beat him decisively. He also knew in matches where my opponent stayed away from me, I would win maybe three to two or two to one. And that's just what he did. In all honesty, I truly believe I won that match. I don't blame Verne. He came out to win and that's just what he did.

 

I believe they should have started him down for not being aggressive. I shot in and caught him in the last few seconds and that put me up three to one. Some kid comes out on the mat from the time- keeper's table and tells the official that the time ran out before he gave me the two points. He took the two points away and walked over and raised Verne's hand. The entire crowd became unglued.

The coach of Nebraska was head of the tournament committee at the time. He told me that if coach Griffith would make a formal protest they would reverse the decision. I went to my coach but he wouldn't protest. So I came in second.

As Mark pointed out, that ending to the 1949 finals match caused the the NCAA to change the rules. In addition to the referee, two judges were added. Hutton described the 1950 finals match as follows:

 

Believe it or not, I ended up with the same referee that I had in the finals the year before. I was wrestling a guy named Stoeker from Iowa State Teachers College. All through the match his coaches were yelling at him to stay away from me. He kept running off the mat and the referee kept allowing it.

 

Again he wouldn't put him down for not being aggressive. The match ended with the score tied one to one. I knew what was going to happen. The referee voted for Stoeker but the two judges voted for me. I had my third national title. I could never figure out that referee though. There must have been something about me he just didn't like."

FWIW, a few old-timers I talked to years ago described the 1949 match pretty much the same as Dick Hutton's account. They said he pushed the action and got the takedown before time expired. But, unfortunately for us fans, Flowrestling wasn't there to video the action. ;)

.

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Dick Hutton was interviewed in one of those pro wrestling magazines and described his amateur career. Here's what he said about the controversial referee's decision that went against him:

 

Verne was an outstanding wrestler. Not only on the mat but how he sized up an opponent. He knew

if he came into me, I would beat him decisively. He also knew in matches where my opponent stayed away from me, I would win maybe three to two or two to one. And that's just what he did. In all honesty, I truly believe I won that match. I don't blame Verne. He came out to win and that's just what he did.

 

I believe they should have started him down for not being aggressive. I shot in and caught him in the last few seconds and that put me up three to one. Some kid comes out on the mat from the time- keeper's table and tells the official that the time ran out before he gave me the two points. He took the two points away and walked over and raised Verne's hand. The entire crowd became unglued.

The coach of Nebraska was head of the tournament committee at the time. He told me that if coach Griffith would make a formal protest they would reverse the decision. I went to my coach but he wouldn't protest. So I came in second.

As Mark pointed out, that ending to the 1949 finals match caused the the NCAA to change the rules. In addition to the referee, two judges were added. Hutton described the 1950 finals match as follows:

 

Believe it or not, I ended up with the same referee that I had in the finals the year before. I was wrestling a guy named Stoeker from Iowa State Teachers College. All through the match his coaches were yelling at him to stay away from me. He kept running off the mat and the referee kept allowing it.

 

Again he wouldn't put him down for not being aggressive. The match ended with the score tied one to one. I knew what was going to happen. The referee voted for Stoeker but the two judges voted for me. I had my third national title. I could never figure out that referee though. There must have been something about me he just didn't like."

FWIW, a few old-timers I talked to years ago described the 1949 match pretty much the same as Dick Hutton's account. They said he pushed the action and got the takedown before time expired. But, unfortunately for us fans, Flowrestling wasn't there to video the action. ;)

.

 

HurricaneWrestling,

 

Thanks for sharing those recollections from Dick Hutton. They provide fascinating details.

 

Just a couple more details to add to the story:

> The '49 NCAAs were held at Colorado State, hundreds of miles from Oklahoma State or Minnesota, in a time when it was a HUGE undertaking to travel. (I think the '49 NCAAs were at that time the furthest west.) So, I think it's safe to say that it wasn't a partisan crowd.

> Gagne was significantly smaller than Hutton; he was the defending 191 lb NCAA champ, who, I believe, was about 210-215 as a heavyweight. Hutton was a big bear of a man, normally tipping the scales at 245.

> The '49 NCAAs were also significant as being the first to have an African-American competitor, Harold Henson of San Diego State. Here's an article I wrote for InterMat: http://www.intermatwrestle.com/articles/3721

 

The Colorado State yearbook has some pics of the NCAAs, including one of Hutton tied up with Gagne, but I don't know how to post photos. I contacted the school's archives to see if they might have film, but no such luck. And, as you said, this was decades before FloWrestling, and even ABC's Wide World of Sports.

 

Mark

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Great stories love hearing them. MSU158 what I was trying to say about Referee Finn Erikson he was held in very high regards one of the founders of wrestling in Iowa I do not think he had anything against Hutton just that he saw the match differently. Obviously I was not there to witness the matches but being a West Waterloo alum and meeting Coach Erikson when I was young can not fathom him factoring his decision on whether he disliked a wrestler. Again great stories very much enjoy hearing the history of our sport from others.

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Great stories love hearing them. MSU158 what I was trying to say about Referee Finn Erikson he was held in very high regards one of the founders of wrestling in Iowa I do not think he had anything against Hutton just that he saw the match differently. Obviously I was not there to witness the matches but being a West Waterloo alum and meeting Coach Erikson when I was young can not fathom him factoring his decision on whether he disliked a wrestler. Again great stories very much enjoy hearing the history of our sport from others.

 

I understand your trying to give the ref the benefit of the doubt. He may not have had a personal dislike but I know refs form opinions about the look and overall style of a wrestler. Even if it isn't personal a dislike often occurs. This really hits home for me,obviously at a lower level, as it happened to me at the high school individual state tourney. I took 3rd at regionals and had the #2 from a different regional. Went 0-0 thru 1. Kid was really long and had a tight waist that came around to the middle of my back. Did nothing but that most of 2nd I got out with little time left in 2nd up1-0. 3rd he chooses down. I throw in legs quickly thereafter I get a stall warning. Soon after he sits on a hip boom stalling again. He them tells me that if I throw them in again he will immediately call stalling. Now it is 1-1 he has taken away my best ride I cut him with around 30 left he bounces around and I lose 2-1. He would go on to take 3rd. I win my next match. Then guess what ref I have again....So now I know I have to be aggressive on my feet. Get an escape and 2 takedowns in the first 2 periods end the 2nd up 5-2. Here is where the nightmares start and haven't gone away. He chooses down I am a little tired having wrestled harder on my feet than I can remember. I figure up 3 I can work on him from the top. I was wrong. Legs go in, stalling. Soon after stalling again. Cut him and now it is 5-4. Shoot with about 30 left he reshoots I kick out go out of bounds and get called for fleeing. Go to ot and My mind was reeling. Afraid anything I do loses me the match. I kept shooting he kept defending shot a loose shot got stepped ove and lost 7-5. He wrestled back to 4th.

 

After that I do NOT give refs the benefit of the doubt. The style that got me to that point was taken away. My mind was rattled and I lost two matches that still haunt me.

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MSU158 good stuff and agree with pretty much everything you said I do not like it when refs try to dictate the style of wrestling. Many have said it I was told by Don Buzzard Sr " That you have to beat a guy by 3-4 points because you have to figure the ref will screw you out of a 2 points"

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Related to our discussion of Dick Hutton vs Verne Gagne at the 1949 NCAAs...

 

Learned last night that Harold Henson, San Diego State wrestler who was the first African-American to compete at any NCAAs ('49 NCAAs), died last weekend. I had the honor of interviewing him for a 2008 InterMat profile. A true trailblazer has left us. RIP, Col. Henson...

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/harold- ... asses-away

 

http://www.intermatwrestle.com/articles/3721

 

Mark

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