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TBar1977

David Taylor is NCAA Most Dominant Wrestler

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these standings highlight how dumb our dual scoring system is. taylor walsh sits 3rd most dominant with several losses. 2 pins and a loss = 3 wins by decision. I am not sure the match point scoring system is the way to go, but something that doesn't reward bonus so heavily would be nice. it's sad to see a team win 6/10 matches and lose the dual.

 

decision 5

md 6

tech 7

pin 8

 

something of this ratio would be better

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I like Howe. Most older fans do; he's a real throwback.

 

Yes, Howe was hampered by knee problems when he injury defaulted to Polz, and lost to Caldwell in the ncaa semis. Still he was very capable of winning against Caldwell. As I recall, the match with Caldwell went multiple O.T. periods before Caldwell finally got the win. Howe had enough left in him to make it to the finals that year.

 

Also, if injury/physical ailment must be brought up. I've heard from some close to the Wisconsin wrestling, that Howe was having troubles with his knee before he wrestled Burroughs in the Midlands finals. I wonder if that will change how the match is viewed by some?

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What an ignorant post. But, what should you expect from someone who would use the name you have as their screen name?

 

Taylor is THE most dominant wrestler there has EVER been against anyone NOT elite. There is NO debating that. However, you are deaf, dumb and blind if you do not realize how good Howe is.

 

Howe wrestled as a true freshman, and he only has 1 non injury related loss to an all time great(Burroughs) since. His other 2 losses were the injury default to Polz, and the semifinal OT loss(WHILE STILL INJURED) at the NCAA tournament to Caldwell.You cherry pick their comparative losses but fail to realize that Taylor took losses to Sanderson and Jenkins his true freshman year and Sanderson only took 6th. Taylor would have taken several losses as a true freshman and regardless of bias I do not see how you could argue against that.

 

The tech fall argument in Freestyle is garbage as well. The difference between that tech and a Folkstyle tech are so different they cannot even be compared. Howe tried a move that he wouldn't even try in Folkstyle and ended up in a position that wouldn't even matter in College.

 

They are both great and there is a reason they are the last remaining undefeated returning champs. You come off as a hypocrite as you whine about people not giving Taylor his due as you immediately do the same to Howe.

 

GOOD ON YOU, MSU

 

You nailed the guy intellectually and, extra credit, score with the ad hominem attack!

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I like Howe. Most older fans do; he's a real throwback.

 

Yes, Howe was hampered by knee problems when he injury defaulted to Polz, and lost to Caldwell in the ncaa semis. Still he was very capable of winning against Caldwell. As I recall, the match with Caldwell went multiple O.T. periods before Caldwell finally got the win. Howe had enough left in him to make it to the finals that year.

 

Also, if injury/physical ailment must be brought up. I've heard from some close to the Wisconsin wrestling, that Howe was having troubles with his knee before he wrestled Burroughs in the Midlands finals. I wonder if that will change how the match is viewed by some?

 

Knee problems? He tore his hamstring! If you are, yet AGAIN, going to try to downplay an injury, AT THE VERY LEAST, know what the injury was. A VERY select few wrestlers even try to come back with his injury let alone take 3rd at a deep weight. You seem to always have an angle to deflect against injuries affect on wrestlers.......

 

I really want to know, do you just look to argue for the sake of arguing or do you actually believe everything you post?????

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Knee problems? He tore his hamstring! If you are, yet AGAIN, going to try to downplay an injury, AT THE VERY LEAST, know what the injury was. A VERY select few wrestlers even try to come back with his injury let alone take 3rd at a deep weight. You seem to always have an angle to deflect against injuries affect on wrestlers.......

 

 

I thought I was told it was a knee injury. Anywho, I was told whatever it was that sidelined Howe that year was already acting up and bothering him at the very beginning of the season, before he wrestled Burroughs at the Midlands. We were discussing Howe vs Burroughs, which was probably the biggest matchup in college at that time, and I was told that Andrew was not 100% before the first match. In other words, against Polz, it wasn't a completely new injury, it was an injury that was already present that got even worse.

 

You brought up injury related losses. I was just adding information from a source that has proven to be quite reliable over time.

 

 

I really want to know, do you just look to argue for the sake of arguing or do you actually believe everything you post?????

 

No, my posts are serious. The fact is, Howe came back and was able to win the Big 10s. Howe was also able to beat numerous all americans and make it back to the ncaa semi finals. He then lost a match that consisted of multiple overtime periods. Howe was capable of winning the match against Caldwell that year, but he came up short. It was unfortunate that he wasn't 100%, but he could have done a few things better to turn around the result.

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Howe injured his knee in the WT Finals against Burroughs, maybe your confusing the two.

 

A torn hamstring certainly excuses Howe from the harsh judgement I feel your putting on him.

The redflag with Howe is the fact that he seems to get injured in tougher competitions.

 

Healthy, I don't think it can be argued that he is more dominant than just about all except Taylor, Steiber, and Ruth. He certainly belongs in that conversation.

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Howe injured his knee in the WT Finals against Burroughs, maybe your confusing the two.

 

A torn hamstring certainly excuses Howe from the harsh judgement I feel your putting on him.

The redflag with Howe is the fact that he seems to get injured in tougher competitions.

 

Healthy, I don't think it can be argued that he is more dominant than just about all except Taylor, Steiber, and Ruth. He certainly belongs in that conversation.

Did he get injured in the two NCAA finals that he wrestled in? What about the Senior Nationals he won as a twenty year old?

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Howe injured his knee in the WT Finals against Burroughs, maybe your confusing the two.

 

A torn hamstring certainly excuses Howe from the harsh judgement I feel your putting on him.

The redflag with Howe is the fact that he seems to get injured in tougher competitions.

 

Healthy, I don't think it can be argued that he is more dominant than just about all except Taylor, Steiber, and Ruth. He certainly belongs in that conversation.

Did he get injured in the two NCAA finals that he wrestled in? What about the Senior Nationals he won as a twenty year old?

Don't know.

Nothing published.

 

You are missing the point, he has had some pretty unlucky circumstances.

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As far as Howe's college career goes, he has only had 1 injury hamper him.

 

True Freshman-30-5 2nd place NCAA finish. Just got better and better as year went on.

 

True Sophomore-37-0 1st place NCAA finish. Was the definitive best wrestler at 165.

 

True Junior-27-3 3rd place NCAA finish. Was on a 51 match winning streak until losing to Burroughs 10-7. Tore his hamstring in dual against Illinois on Jan 16 losing to Polz by injury default. Pritzlaff was quoted as saying the injury was so severe it was season ending. Howe surprises all and comes back to wrestle B1G tournament and wins it. He then makes the semis and loses a multiple OT match to Caldwell.

 

Takes an Olympic Redshirt-Beats Taylor, Caldwell and Paulson to win the Challenge bracket prior to the Championship match with Burroughs. Howe loses to Burroughs 2-4, 2-1, 0-1 while sustaining a major knee injury during the match. Defaults the 2nd match with Burroughs.

 

Redshirts due to a host of reasons including injury and transferring from Wisconsin due to Pritzlaff leaving. Finds a home in Oklahoma. Does not wrestle the US Open as he was still recovering from injury. Makes the finals of the Challenge bracket losing an epic 7 day(slight exaggeration) OT match with Dake. He then has to wrestle a True 3rd place match with Taylor and loses by Tech.

 

Redshirt senior- Currently 15-0. Has already beat the defending champ(Perry) 4-2, the defending finalist(Brown at ALL STAR CLASSIC) 4-3, and the defending 3rd place finisher (Kokesh) 3-2.

 

Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts!

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As far as Howe's college career goes, he has only had 1 injury hamper him.

 

True Freshman-30-5 2nd place NCAA finish. Just got better and better as year went on.

 

True Sophomore-37-0 1st place NCAA finish. Was the definitive best wrestler at 165.

 

True Junior-27-3 3rd place NCAA finish. Was on a 51 match winning streak until losing to Burroughs 10-7. Tore his hamstring in dual against Illinois on Jan 16 losing to Polz by injury default. Pritzlaff was quoted as saying the injury was so severe it was season ending. Howe surprises all and comes back to wrestle B1G tournament and wins it. He then makes the semis and loses a multiple OT match to Caldwell.

 

Takes an Olympic Redshirt-Beats Taylor, Caldwell and Paulson to win the Challenge bracket prior to the Championship match with Burroughs. Howe loses to Burroughs 2-4, 2-1, 0-1 while sustaining a major knee injury during the match. Defaults the 2nd match with Burroughs.

 

Redshirts due to a host of reasons including injury and transferring from Wisconsin due to Pritzlaff leaving. Finds a home in Oklahoma. Does not wrestle the US Open as he was still recovering from injury. Makes the finals of the Challenge bracket losing an epic 7 day(slight exaggeration) OT match with Dake. He then has to wrestle a True 3rd place match with Taylor and loses by Tech.

 

Redshirt senior- Currently 15-0. Has already beat the defending champ(Perry) 4-2, the defending finalist(Brown at ALL STAR CLASSIC) 4-3, and the defending 3rd place finisher (Kokesh) 3-2.

 

Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts!

 

Impressed! +1

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Howe injured his knee in the WT Finals against Burroughs, maybe your confusing the two.

 

A torn hamstring certainly excuses Howe from the harsh judgement I feel your putting on him.

The redflag with Howe is the fact that he seems to get injured in tougher competitions.

 

Healthy, I don't think it can be argued that he is more dominant than just about all except Taylor, Steiber, and Ruth. He certainly belongs in that conversation.

Did he get injured in the two NCAA finals that he wrestled in? What about the Senior Nationals he won as a twenty year old?

Don't know.

Nothing published.

 

You are missing the point, he has had some pretty unlucky circumstances.

 

You said Howe seems to get injured in tougher competitions, that it is a red flag. I just pointed put his tougher competitions in which he did not get injured.

 

He tore his hamstring in a dual meet against Polz (I don't know if you consider this an tougher competition, I don't) and blew his knee out at WTT against Burroughs. So he blew his knee out once, and you consider it a red flag or trend that he gets hurt during "tougher competitions"? I don't see where you are coming from.

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Now that is an ignorant post. As much as you wish it were otherwise, there is no need for the caveat, unless you're defining "elite" as "wrestlers who have never been majored, teched or pinned by David Taylor." Taylor has eight major decisions, two tech falls and four pins in his career against NCAA all Americans. He's been dominant against everyone but Kyle Dake.

 

Also, if Howe gets style points for wrestling as a true freshman, does he lose some for wrestling this year as a 24-year-old man who has had the benefit of a year at an Olympic training center?

 

 

here we go

 

now insert all the Taylor bashing, weak weight class, etc. etc.

 

Then insert all the Howe jockstrap swinging even though he has nearly 3 times the amount of losses as Taylor, and could only beat a guy 3-2 that Taylor has majored and pinfell. After Taylor wrestled Howe once, he came back and tech falled him.

 

there

 

What an ignorant post. But, what should you expect from someone who would use the name you have as their screen name?

 

Taylor is THE most dominant wrestler there has EVER been against anyone NOT elite. There is NO debating that. However, you are deaf, dumb and blind if you do not realize how good Howe is.

 

Howe wrestled as a true freshman, and he only has 1 non injury related loss to an all time great(Burroughs) since. His other 2 losses were the injury default to Polz, and the semifinal OT loss(WHILE STILL INJURED) at the NCAA tournament to Caldwell.You cherry pick their comparative losses but fail to realize that Taylor took losses to Sanderson and Jenkins his true freshman year and Sanderson only took 6th. Taylor would have taken several losses as a true freshman and regardless of bias I do not see how you could argue against that.

 

The tech fall argument in Freestyle is garbage as well. The difference between that tech and a Folkstyle tech are so different they cannot even be compared. Howe tried a move that he wouldn't even try in Folkstyle and ended up in a position that wouldn't even matter in College.

 

They are both great and there is a reason they are the last remaining undefeated returning champs. You come off as a hypocrite as you whine about people not giving Taylor his due as you immediately do the same to Howe.

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MSU158,

 

How are you defining "dominant"? and do you mean to say most dominant over the last 10 or 15 years? I can name at least two wrestlers with 30 or more pins over their career than Taylor. Gene Mills and Wade Schalles both had over 100 pins and I don't think Taylor will be in top 5 or even top 10 in pins for total career. Taylor is perhaps the most proficient point scorer but I think a pin demonstrates more dominance than tilting someone 4 or 5 times in a match with many of those NF holds not coming close to a pinning hold.

 

Maybe its simply a difference of opinion regarding what constitutes dominance. I also think Dake led the country in pins last year.

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I feel no nervousness about anyone Taylor wrestles coming from anyone in his current weight class that could even mount a challenge to beat him or even challenge him . However I cannot feel that same sense of a guaranteed victory coming from Howe with his 1 or 2 point victories coming against a couple people in his own weight class in order to take the title. One mistake or slip and Howe Goes down. To me that is not domination it is surviving the match.

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I feel no nervousness about anyone Taylor wrestles coming from anyone in his current weight class that could even mount a challenge to beat him or even challenge him . However I cannot feel that same sense of a guaranteed victory coming from Howe with his 1 or 2 point victories coming against a couple people in his own weight class in order to take the title. One mistake or slip and Howe Goes down. To me that is not domination it is surviving the match.

 

Agree. Nelson looked dominant too in all of his 1 point wins, until he gave up ONE take down. Then he lost.

 

Taylor looked under the weather last night, and Jackson More wrestled GREAT against him, and Taylor gave up a take down too..............Taylor still majored him.

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This board is literally amazing. I give Taylor immense credit for being the most dominant against NOT elite wrestlers and get attacked from BOTH directions. One guy calls me ignorant because I distinguished the elite part, while another tells me how he can't be the most dominant due to other pinners.

 

How do I respond to both?

First let me define what I consider "ELITE". A four time AA or 2x finalist. The exception would be someone who really finds himself his senior year and lights it up. Taylor has not wrestled anyone that fits that description.

 

Taylor is currently 121-3. Of his 121 wins 47 are by pin, 40 are by TF and 27 are by Major. Of his 124 matches he has won 114 by major or better. I am sorry but with the advances in training of today along with the amount of events and matches per year, this is simply unbelievable. His dominance is unreal. Yet, there is still the argument of his being the BEST against Elite. How anyone can get insulted by his not being called the BEST against Elite baffles me. Just because he isn't called the best doesn't make it an insult. If you get a 96% on a test it is still an A. However, if someone gets a 97% they did better than you. Same damn thing.

 

So of Taylor's 10 matches that have not been major or better wins we have:

Loss to Jenkins by pin

Loss to Dake 2-1

Loss to Dake 5-4

Beat Dong 9-3

Beat St John 8-3

Beat St John 6-3

Beat Steve Fittery 7-1

Beat Hatchett 9-4

Beat Evans 9-4

Beat Polz 13-7

 

Of the above he also majored St John, tech falled Hatchet, majored Evans, and majored and pinned Polz.

 

Of the above I would consider Dake, Jenkins, St John, and Fittery as elite. I would then add in Caldwell as elite. So his record against Elite is 6-3. I do not see how you can argue against my NOT calling him the most dominant wrestler against ELITE. Let alone call me ignorant.

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This board is literally amazing. I give Taylor immense credit for being the most dominant against NOT elite wrestlers and get attacked from BOTH direction. One guy calls me ignorant because I distinguished the elite part, while another tells me how he can't be the most dominant due to other pinners.

 

How do I respond to both?

First let me define what I consider "ELITE". A four time AA or 2x finalist. The exception would be someone who really finds himself his senior year and lights it up. Taylor has not wrestled anyone that fits that description.

 

Taylor is currently 121-3. Of his 121 wins 47 are by pin, 40 are by TF and 27 are by Major. Of his 124 matches he has won 114 by major or better. I am sorry but with the advances in training of today along with the amount of events and matches per year, this is simply unbelievable. His dominance is unreal. Yet, there is still the argument of his being the BEST against Elite. How anyone can take his not being called the BEST against Elite baffles me. Just because he isn't called the best doesn't make it an insult. If you get a 96% on a test it is still an A. However, if someone gets a 97% they did better than you. Same damn thing.

 

So of Taylor's 10 matches that have not been major or better wins we have:

Loss to Jenkins by pin

Loss to Dake 2-1

Loss to Dake 5-4

Beat Dong 9-3

Beat St John 8-3

Beat St John 6-3

Beat Steve Fittery 7-1

Beat Hatchett 9-4

Beat Evans 9-4

Beat Polz 13-7

 

Of the above he also tech falled Hatchet, majored Evans, and majored and pinned Polz.

 

Of the above I would consider Dake, Jenkins, St John, and Fittery as elite. I would then add in Caldwell as elite. So his record against Elite is 5-3. I do not see how you can argue against my NOT calling him the most dominant wrestler against ELITE. Let alone call me ignorant.

 

Beat

I'm almost positive I watched him major St. John in a dual a few years back.

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It's a great field this year. Things can certainly change in a heartbeat. Just a month ago, some were saying Ruth was top 5 All-time. Stieber, even with his controversial win over Oliver, was only a notch below. Now, their fans are hoping they can win this year. I don't know where DT falls in the all time list, but he has lost 3 matches in his college career. At the time they raised his opponent's hand, they had already won 1, 3, and 4 NCAA Championships. The last two, were 1-point losses to an All Time Great. I have absolutely no problem putting DT in the top 15 All Time College Wrestlers in NCAA History. I cannot say that about anyone else in this crop. I thought Howe, as great as his is, was the 4th or 5th best coming into this season, but I have to put him at number 2 if he wins out. The sport is in an awesome place of changing techniques, and rules and strategies, training techniques, video technique available to the masses, etc... It seems to me that it's more difficult than ever before to go undefeated. It may just be an anomaly, but a lot of greats have been defeated by freshman this year...Howe=NFC, Taylor

=AFC

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