Irrelevant q: Who would win 165 if Taylor didn't exist?

[SetonHallPirate 988]

Just wondering what the thinking here is...certainly, that weight would be a heck of a lot closer without DT.

[brianj 4]

Holy Moly that would be a toss up. Caldwell would "possibly" be a favorite.

[TBar1977 4,498]

Just wondering what the thinking here is...certainly, that weight would be a heck of a lot closer without DT.

 

Caldwell or Sulzer, or someone currently at 174 would drop down. Minnesota's 165 isn't the strongest, so would Storley drop down if he thought he could win the weight class? I don't know.

[Matburn155 3]

I'm no PSU fan, but I'd say they still get a NC at this weight in Matt Brown (but then they would lose all of Browns points at 174). I think he could make 167 if he knew going into the season he had to.

[JohnnyThompsonnum1 101]

It also raises another point I'll make that may not be a real popular one. There are wrestlers at 165 who are very thankful for David Taylor. They know good and well that there are guys at both 157 and 174 that would otherwise have gone 165 if it had not been for Taylor. Those guys are all about winning it and know they aren't beating Taylor. (Arguments could be made for Howe at 174 too, I'm NOT ignoring that).

 

There are guys at the end of the year that have to have a little bit of a thank you towards Taylor as they stand on the award stand with their medal. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If your goal is to get on the award stand, and your ok if that place on the award stand isn't 1st, you might be better off going at the toughest weight there is, as far as winning it is concerned.

[superold 34]

I'm not so sure Taylor wins this year. DT is great in the regular season all the way up to the ncaa finals. However, he's only 1-2 when it comes time to actually win the championship. I wouldn't be too suprised if he was upset this year in the finals.

[superold 34]

quote="JohnnyThompsonnum1"]It also raises another point I'll make that may not be a real popular one. There are wrestlers at 165 who are very thankful for David Taylor. They know good and well that there are guys at both 157 and 174 that would otherwise have gone 165 if it had not been for Taylor. Those guys are all about winning it and know they aren't beating Taylor. (Arguments could be made for Howe at 174 too, I'm NOT ignoring that).

 

Name one.

[headshuck 2,588]

Haha JT1! Like going straight after the ugly girl.

[wrestlingnerd 3,000]

I don't buy the Howe is scared of Taylor theory for one second. Howe is already a national champion who has continually showed up to test himself against the likes of Burroughs, Dake, and Taylor when the opportunity presented itself. He is not ducking anybody.

 

Also, there's the fact that Howe is a beast of a 174 lber. I've heard people say that he could easily make 165 this season, and I call complete BS on that. I bet he cuts pretty hard to make 163 in freestyle, and that's with the much easier weigh-in rules, not three or four straight months of 1-hour weigh-ins. This is why he wrestled up a weight at universities, not 163. In my opinion, Howe would not be the same wrestler at 165 because the cut with the D1 grind would be too hard. Especially coming off a knee injury that sidelined him for an entire year and change, cutting hard when your ultimate goal is not just another D1 championship, but a successful freestyle career, is just about the stupidest thing he could do. And for what? To avenge a freestyle loss in a tournament after both he and Taylor had lost already and were playing for scraps? He will have another shot at Taylor when they graduate.

 

174 is a much, much tougher weight than 165, so trading Taylor for the field at 174 is not exactly taking the easy road.

[JohnnyThompsonnum1 101]

quote="JohnnyThompsonnum1"]It also raises another point I'll make that may not be a real popular one. There are wrestlers at 165 who are very thankful for David Taylor. They know good and well that there are guys at both 157 and 174 that would otherwise have gone 165 if it had not been for Taylor. Those guys are all about winning it and know they aren't beating Taylor. (Arguments could be made for Howe at 174 too, I'm NOT ignoring that).

 

Name one.

 

The old if no one is going to admit it, it must mean it's not true argument. I have no idea who exactly it is or who it isn't, but you know as well as I do that there are guys that dropped down to 157 this year because they wanted to win an NCAA title and they knew they couldn't take out Taylor in an effort to do so at 165. Would they admit that? Hell no they wouldn't. We both know it's true though.

 

Headshuck - what in the world do you mean by that???

 

Wrestlingnerd - If you're referring to me, don't. Howe is NOT one of the ones I'm referring to.

[superold 34]

The old if no one is going to admit it, it must mean it's not true argument.

 

It's not an argument JT1.

 

I have no idea who exactly it is or who it isn't,

 

In which case it could be no one. If you are going to make the type of statement you made, at least give some names.

 

but you know as well as I do that there are guys that dropped down to 157 this year because they wanted to win an NCAA title and they knew they couldn't take out Taylor in an effort to do so at 165

.

 

No I don't JT1, you don't either. Or maybe you do and you aren't telling anyone?

 

Would they admit that? Hell no they wouldn't. We both know it's true though.

 

So you choose to admit it for them even though you don't know for sure. Or do you? And no, I don't know it's true.

 

Wrestlingnerd - If you're referring to me, don't. Howe is NOT one of the ones I'm referring to.

 

Who are you referring to?

[TBar1977 4,498]

I'm not so sure Taylor wins this year. DT is great in the regular season all the way up to the ncaa finals. However, he's only 1-2 when it comes time to actually win the championship. I wouldn't be too suprised if he was upset this year in the finals.

 

Taylor will win this year. I rarely state something like that as fact, but he's the biggest lock to win that we have had in a while.

[superold 34]

I'm not so sure Taylor wins this year. DT is great in the regular season all the way up to the ncaa finals. However, he's only 1-2 when it comes time to actually win the championship. I wouldn't be too suprised if he was upset this year in the finals.

 

Taylor will win this year. I rarely state something like that as fact, but he's the biggest lock to win that we have had in a while.

 

Whatever you say. There were many PSU fans telling me that DT would kill Dake if he bumped up a weight... and look what happened.

 

Edit: I also disagree that DT is "the biggest lock we've had in awhile". Kyle Dake was more of a "lock" last year imo. And yes, I'm being serious.

[Old_Marine_Wrestler 245]

I don't buy the Howe is scared of Taylor theory for one second. Howe is already a national champion who has continually showed up to test himself against the likes of Burroughs, Dake, and Taylor when the opportunity presented itself. He is not ducking anybody.

 

Also, there's the fact that Howe is a beast of a 174 lber. I've heard people say that he could easily make 165 this season, and I call complete BS on that. I bet he cuts pretty hard to make 163 in freestyle, and that's with the much easier weigh-in rules, not three or four straight months of 1-hour weigh-ins. This is why he wrestled up a weight at universities, not 163. In my opinion, Howe would not be the same wrestler at 165 because the cut with the D1 grind would be too hard. Especially coming off a knee injury that sidelined him for an entire year and change, cutting hard when your ultimate goal is not just another D1 championship, but a successful freestyle career, is just about the stupidest thing he could do. And for what? To avenge a freestyle loss in a tournament after both he and Taylor had lost already and were playing for scraps? He will have another shot at Taylor when they graduate.

 

174 is a much, much tougher weight than 165, so trading Taylor for the field at 174 is not exactly taking the easy road.

Agree! Howe isn't afraid to wrestle anyone. Getting down to 165 for 3 consecutive days would be brutal for him.

 

174 is a much better situation physically for him.

[Old_Marine_Wrestler 245]

I'm not so sure Taylor wins this year. DT is great in the regular season all the way up to the ncaa finals. However, he's only 1-2 when it comes time to actually win the championship. I wouldn't be too suprised if he was upset this year in the finals.

The only time Taylor was the 1 seed at NCAAs he ended up as the National Champ and won the Hodge.

 

He'll be the 1 seed again this year and win the Hodge.

[TBar1977 4,498]

I'm not so sure Taylor wins this year. DT is great in the regular season all the way up to the ncaa finals. However, he's only 1-2 when it comes time to actually win the championship. I wouldn't be too suprised if he was upset this year in the finals.

 

Taylor will win this year. I rarely state something like that as fact, but he's the biggest lock to win that we have had in a while.

 

Whatever you say. There were many PSU fans telling me that DT would kill Dake if he bumped up a weight... and look what happened.

 

Edit: I also disagree that DT is "the biggest lock we've had in awhile". Kyle Dake was more of a "lock" last year imo. And yes, I'm being serious.

 

Taylor is still a lock this year. Probably also a lock to win his second Hodge, and a good chance to win his 3rd Gorrarian.

[JohnnyThompsonnum1 101]

The old if no one is going to admit it, it must mean it's not true argument.

 

It's not an argument JT1.

 

I have no idea who exactly it is or who it isn't,

 

In which case it could be no one. If you are going to make the type of statement you made, at least give some names.

 

but you know as well as I do that there are guys that dropped down to 157 this year because they wanted to win an NCAA title and they knew they couldn't take out Taylor in an effort to do so at 165

.

 

No I don't JT1, you don't either. Or maybe you do and you aren't telling anyone?

 

Would they admit that? Hell no they wouldn't. We both know it's true though.

 

So you choose to admit it for them even though you don't know for sure. Or do you? And no, I don't know it's true.

 

Wrestlingnerd - If you're referring to me, don't. Howe is NOT one of the ones I'm referring to.

 

Who are you referring to?

 

It is an argument because you are using the rhetoric that if no one would admit to going to 174/184 or down to 157 in an effort to avoid Taylor, that the statement that I made that individuals did indeed go to 174/184 or 157 to avoid Taylor is not true. If you were to take a survey throughout areas in the country that are known for high levels of racism and go around asking each person to publicly state whether they were racist or not, how many of them do you think would admit it? You're telling me that since no one would admit that they're racist therefore no one is racist?

 

I get what you are getting at. If you don't know for sure, then you can't make a claim. However, that is where the dirty little trick of pleading the 5th or even lying comes in to play. If no one would admit it, then I can't technically say I know. I still say that if David Taylor didn't exist, you'd see guys from 157 up and guys from 174 down. It's happened in the past with other guys.

 

I don't "know" and believe is a word I should've used instead. I admit that. So I believe, I hypothesis, but I don't know for certain.

 

The same way I don't know that a person is racist. Especially if all I'm going on is whether they admit to being so or not.

[superold 34]

I'm not so sure Taylor wins this year. DT is great in the regular season all the way up to the ncaa finals. However, he's only 1-2 when it comes time to actually win the championship. I wouldn't be too suprised if he was upset this year in the finals.

The only time Taylor was the 1 seed at NCAAs he ended up as the National Champ and won the Hodge.

 

He'll be the 1 seed again this year and win the Hodge.

 

We'll see. I myself can't be too confident in DT. I think he's the favorite with a really good chance to win, but I'm not counting him as a "lock".

[PRyan2012 347]

Who wants to be a one time champ if you can easily be a two time champ by bumping up. Howe will win 174 if he doesnt get hurt. He wrestkes 163 in free so why in the world would he not wrestle 165? Because of DT. I would have done the same thing and went after another title. Howe knew he could handle Perry so it was a no brainer. I don't think Howe is really running from Taylor but just wants another title to finish a great career and Taylor would put those chances in doubt. We will see them wrestle again at the Open maybe and surely the trials so I am ok with not seeing the match in college but it would have been nice.

[superold 34]

It is an argument because you are using the rhetoric that if no one would admit to going to 174/184 or down to 157 in an effort to avoid Taylor, that the statement that I made that individuals did indeed go to 174/184 or 157 to avoid Taylor is not true.

 

It's not an agrument JT1.

 

If you were to take a survey throughout areas in the country that are known for high levels of racism and go around asking each person to publicly state whether they were racist or not, how many of them do you think would admit it? You're telling me that since no one would admit that they're racist therefore no one is racist?

 

This is not relevant to the topic. But for the record, I know "out and proud" racists.

 

I get what you are getting at. If you don't know for sure, then you can't make a claim. However, that is where the dirty little trick of pleading the 5th or even lying comes in to play. If no one would admit it, then I can't technically say I know. I still say that if David Taylor didn't exist, you'd see guys from 157 up and guys from 174 down. It's happened in the past with other guys.

 

Say whatever you want JT1. If you are going to make a statement like the one that you originally made, at least name some names. Why won't you? You said you didn't think Howe was one of them, so tell us who you do think is one of them.

 

I don't "know" and believe is a word I should've used instead. I admit that. So I believe, I hypothesis, but I don't know for certain.

 

Who do you believe is avoiding DT? Are you going to tell us or what?

 

The same way I don't know that a person is racist. Especially if all I'm going on is whether they admit to being so or not.

 

Irrelevant.

[superold 34]

He wrestkes 163 in free so why in the world would he not wrestle 165?

 

What does one have to do with the other PRyan? Can you tell me for sure that Howe, and more importantly, his coaches didn't already plan on putting Howe at 174? That's what I was told at least.

 

How do we know that DT didn't wrestle 174 because of Howe?

 

I would have done the same thing and went after another title.

 

So what. And how do you know that you would be in position to choose your weight class?

[djd5391 1]

I'm not so sure Taylor wins this year. DT is great in the regular season all the way up to the ncaa finals. However, he's only 1-2 when it comes time to actually win the championship. I wouldn't be too suprised if he was upset this year in the finals.

 

Are you serious right now? David Taylor has majored, teched, or pinned everyone he has wrestled this year. His closest matches he has won by eight points. Who would be the one to upset him?

[superold 34]

I'm not so sure Taylor wins this year. DT is great in the regular season all the way up to the ncaa finals. However, he's only 1-2 when it comes time to actually win the championship. I wouldn't be too suprised if he was upset this year in the finals.

 

Are you serious right now? David Taylor has majored, teched, or pinned everyone he has wrestled this year. His closest matches he has won by eight points. Who would be the one to upset him?

 

Yes I'm serious. Top picks are Caldwell, Moore, and Sulzer. Better wrestlers than DT have gone down in the finals after having distanced themselves from the competition. Wrestlers who had better ncaa finals records.

[djd5391 1]

Yes I'm serious. Top picks are Caldwell, Moore, and Sulzer. Better wrestlers than DT have gone down in the finals after having distanced themselves from the competition. Wrestlers who had better ncaa finals records.

 

The only point Caldwell has ever gotten against Taylor was caution point against DT. Nick Moore stalled his ass off to keep DT to a major decision while also not showing at any time any sort of offense. I don't believe Sulzer and Taylor have wrestled so I can't comment too much about him, but I do know that he isn't a three time finalist with over 100 bonus point wins.

[wrestlingnerd 3,000]

He wrestkes 163 in free so why in the world would he not wrestle 165? Because of DT.

 

Logan Stieber wrestled 132 free, so why would he not wrestle 133 folk?

 

Dylan Alton wrestled 145 free, so why would he not wrestle 141 or 149 folk?

 

James Green wrestled 145 free, so why would he not wrestle 141 or 149 folk?

 

I could go on and on.

 

The answer is really simple. 1-hour weigh-ins for 3-4 months ending in a 3-day weigh-in at nationals is night, day, and then night again different from day-before weigh-ins or even morning of a handful of times a year.

 

Even under the much more favorable conditions of a freestyle weigh-in, Howe eased his way down to 163 by wrestling a weight higher at universities just a few weeks prior.