Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Angry_Fish

Sanderson's Twitter Rant

Recommended Posts

i see plenty of logistical challenges, but whats the big deal about carrying points over? it wont change any teams odds of winning or placement. it just forces teams to compete in a duals tournament and creates loads of exciting match ups. its cool and innovative. god forbid wrestling actually be at forefront of innovation.

 

Just because an idea is different doesn’t make it innovative or good for the sport.

 

Increasing dual attendance is great. Messing with the far and away most popular and successful aspect of Division 1 wrestling is asking for trouble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I think the concept of a forced national duals tournament is not necessarily a good thing for wrestling. Currently, we have the best teams seeking to wrestle each other throughout the season. Think about some of the great duals we have seen this year. Think about the great duals still to come this year. It has been awesome. What happens when teams are forced to wrestle in one duals tournament that counts above any team event during the season? This makes regular season duals virtually meaningless. What happens to regular season duals attendance? I certainly wouldn’t anticipate it increasing. Coaches are going to protect their wrestlers and sit them much more to be sure and have their strongest team for this one event. Again, this is going to decrease fan support and attendance. The season will come down to basically two dates. That does not appeal to me. I can’t see how this would appeal to any fan of the sport.

 

There is a lot of discussion about how to make wrestling more appealing to a greater fan base. It is my opinion, you do this by creating great rivalries and then compete in one’s home venue or in the rival’s venue. Does anyone really think the atmosphere would be as charged inside of a neutral arena for a PSU vs. IU dual than at CHA or Rec Hall? What happens when the top teams in a given conference wrestle each other during the season when they know they may have to wrestle them again later in the season in a dual that actually counts? Hell, we might not even see the matchups we want if those teams in the National Duals are on opposite sides of the bracket. Quite frankly, I want to see the regular season duals count. Otherwise, we get a watered down version of collegiate wrestling that appeals to virtually no one.

 

It has been interesting how team dual tournaments have seemed to wane over the years. Besides the National Duals Tournament, the Virginia Duals come to mind. It used to be a premier team event. Not so much anymore. Why? I feel it is because we are seeing more and more of the great matchups throughout the regular season and attendance for these dual matchups are on the rise.

If the NWCA wants to have a meaningful well attended National Duals Tournament, figure out a way to make the regular season duals relevant. Make the broadcasts of these great rivalry duals available to more viewers. Come up with some new inventive, intelligent and exciting ideas for team and fan support. Don’t force feed a bad plan down everyone’s throat because you can’t get them to participate otherwise. Of course, this is just my opinion so take it fwiw. Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
National Duals Attendance Figures

2006 - 13,880

2007 - 15,190

2008 - 15,818

 

Seriously Tbar, Google is simple. You don't need to be spoon fed information if you really want it. This is from an article in 2008

 

Those are total attendance numbers over multiple days for 6 different classes of competition, all held in one state that can draw for wrestling, Iowa.

 

Drawing 7500 per day in Iowa for this event should be the minimum, and it likely does not exceed the total draw last year for the entire slate of 6 classes that NWCA held in 2013. I will try to find those numbers.

 

Let me add one more thing. Iowa would outdraw these numbers for two average Big10 duals. Easily.

 

While i stated that there were several different divisions at the previous National Duals at UNI, lets not pretend that all divisions have the exact same following. The amount there to see the women's division(no offense) was not equal to the amount there to see Division 1.

 

The NWCA/Cliff Keen National Duals was presented by Hibiclens and The Marines. The attendance for the event was 1200. For more information on the event, visit the NWCA website.

 

Those are the attendance numbers for last years National Duals(non D1) held in Illinois. I couldn't find the number for the one held this year in Des Moines. I expect the attendance to be increased since it was more centrally located to a lot of the teams in attendance and also in a wrestling crazed state of Iowa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What happens when teams are forced to wrestle in one duals tournament that counts above any team event during the season? This makes regular season duals virtually meaningless.

 

If the NWCA wants to have a meaningful well attended National Duals Tournament, figure out a way to make the regular season duals relevant.

 

I find these points to be a little contridicting. You state that the change will make duals meaningless, but also that duals are already irrelevant? Maybe I just misunderstood ur points.

 

The new format is proposing that the regular season duals will serve as a qualifier for the post season Duals. IMO that would cause regular season duals to be more meaningful than ever. Your post season Duals would have a carry over to the NCAA tournament. Also making them more important than ever. Just one man's opinion but that is how I see it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Seems there is a minority group of coaches pushing this agenda and it will only hurt the sport. Personally, I like that national duals but I don't think it should be the official national championship nor should teams be given points for winning. Maybe teams should be given points for their attendance at home duals first. :D

 

Gentlemen, we have a winner. The names of those minority coaches pushing this silly agenda can be found here:

 

http://www.nwcaonline.com/nwcawebsite/about/board.aspx

 

Take note of who the President of the Board of the NWCA is.

 

Here - to save you the trouble, I've pulled out a selection of some of those "pushing this silly agenda" as you say:

 

Ayres, Chris Princeton

Bryant, Jason Non Affiliate

Childs, Jack Retired Coaches

Cody, Mark Oklahoma

Garland, Steve Virginia

Koll, Rob Cornell

Rogers, Mike Franklin & Marshall

Ryan, Tom Ohio State

Smith, Lee Roy Hall of Fame

Zalesky, Jim Oregon State

 

Pretty good company, I would say! ;)

 

By the way - the last time this issue came up for a vote, there actually was a MAJORITY of coaches IN FAVOR of a dual meet teamchampionship - so it really is disingenuous to refer to the proponants as "a minority group".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i see plenty of logistical challenges, but whats the big deal about carrying points over? it wont change any teams odds of winning or placement. it just forces teams to compete in a duals tournament and creates loads of exciting match ups. its cool and innovative. god forbid wrestling actually be at forefront of innovation.

 

Just because an idea is different doesn’t make it innovative or good for the sport.

 

Increasing dual attendance is great. Messing with the far and away most popular and successful aspect of Division 1 wrestling is asking for trouble.

 

its not being messed with. the tournament wouldnt be changed. once it starts, no wrestler's or team's strategy will change one iota.

 

and enough with the attendance numbers. you want a good crowd but that is not how any sport grew since the advent of television. eyeballs > fan interest > attendance. not the other way around. its how every successful sport works. NFL, the Masters, the Olympics, NCAA football and basketball etc etc. get a better product to market and broadcast and you'll have a better sport.

 

we have a great tournament right now. that won't change, but its also not enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here - to save you the trouble, I've pulled out a selection of some of those "pushing this silly agenda" as you say:

 

Ayres, Chris Princeton

Bryant, Jason Non Affiliate

Childs, Jack Retired Coaches

Cody, Mark Oklahoma

Garland, Steve Virginia

Koll, Rob Cornell

Rogers, Mike Franklin & Marshall

Ryan, Tom Ohio State

Smith, Lee Roy Hall of Fame

Zalesky, Jim Oregon State

 

Pretty good company, I would say! ;)

 

By the way - the last time this issue came up for a vote, there actually was a MAJORITY of coaches IN FAVOR of a dual meet teamchampionship - so it really is disingenuous to refer to the proponants as "a minority group".

 

nice mix of big and small programs too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just for full disclosure: I'm a non-voting member of the NWCA Board solely because I hold the position as the President of the National Wrestling Media Associations. I have not attended the NWCA convention the last two years due to the Olympics and family commitments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here - to save you the trouble, I've pulled out a selection of some of those "pushing this silly agenda" as you say:

 

Ayres, Chris Princeton

Bryant, Jason Non Affiliate

Childs, Jack Retired Coaches

Cody, Mark Oklahoma

Garland, Steve Virginia

Koll, Rob Cornell

Rogers, Mike Franklin & Marshall

Ryan, Tom Ohio State

Smith, Lee Roy Hall of Fame

Zalesky, Jim Oregon State

 

Pretty good company, I would say! ;)

 

By the way - the last time this issue came up for a vote, there actually was a MAJORITY of coaches IN FAVOR of a dual meet teamchampionship - so it really is disingenuous to refer to the proponants as "a minority group".

 

nice mix of big and small programs too.

not to not mention dan Gable's approval. I can't for the life of me figure out how brands can end around that fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ocho, attendance does matter.

 

When they hold the NWCA in February, the one for D1 teams, they'll have, I think, 14 teams there. Two Days. What do you expect attendance to be? What do you think it would be if you added Iowa, Penn State and Oklahoma State?

 

I believe they'll draw more than last year's paltry numbers, but I don't know by how much. Would you think 4500 each day would be close? That is nearly 2x what they drew in MN last year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
By the way - the last time this issue came up for a vote, there actually was a MAJORITY of coaches IN FAVOR of a dual meet teamchampionship - so it really is disingenuous to refer to the proponants as "a minority group".

 

A majority of all wrestling coaches, or a majority of those on the NWCA Committee?

 

Also, no one is stopping the NWCA from having their National Duals. Have them. Crown a Champion. No one is stopping you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What were PSU's dual attendance numbers the past decade? Put a good product out and the numbers will increase.

 

You just described what Penn State did. They got a better product, and people came.

 

And the recent product happened overnight? What were the numbers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ocho, attendance does matter.

 

When they hold the NWCA in February, the one for D1 teams, they'll have, I think, 14 teams there. Two Days. What do you expect attendance to be? What do you think it would be if you added Iowa, Penn State and Oklahoma State?

 

I believe they'll draw more than last year's paltry numbers, but I don't know by how much. Would you think 4500 each day would be close? That is nearly 2x what they drew in MN last year.

 

Did I indicate that attendance didn't matter?

 

I agree with the 4,500(give or take) mark for attendance as a fair expectation. That would give them 9,00 total for the event. With Iowa, Penn State and Oklahoma State in attendance I would expect at least 7,000 giving it a total of about 14,000. Those 3 schoolds have arguably the biggest fan following out of any other programs. I saw plenty of Penn State fans at the Scuffle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What were PSU's dual attendance numbers the past decade? Put a good product out and the numbers will increase.

 

You just described what Penn State did. They got a better product, and people came.

 

So if the National Duals got a better product(such as Penn State, Iowa, and Oklahoma State) then people would come. Interesting concept.... If only the NWCA had thought about contacting those schools

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The event was held the same weekend as the popular Minnesota State HS Championships. Bad scheduling.

 

 

The entire collegiate season is bad scheduling. They have discussed the idea of being a single semester sport and making the season shorter so their largest potential fan base (youth and HS wrestlers) are not heavily involved in their seasons but nothing ever gets done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm glad you pointed out the egos at play

 

If this is the best you have on this debate then you have nothing. The idea will end up like all of the other ideas the NWCA has had the past 25 years.

 

They need to market their event better than they do. Get a real budget, because the ads they placed on a few websites last year was a sorry excuse for a marketing campaign.

 

 

Like the Big10 Network can? I'm sorry but Cliff Keen, JRob Intensive Camps and a generic Asics commercial is pale in comparison to Ford, Geico and AT&T which you do not see during wrestling matches. Just 6 years ago, Rec Hall was sometimes drawing a little over 1,000 people and PSU did have some good teams prior to Cael. (I know that is a huge black hole that most PSU fans don't remember because they were not paying attention then)

 

Putting a winning product on the mat is important to attendance but it isn't as easy as it looks. College football and basketball figured it all out how to market their sports over 40 years ago, we still haven't figured it out but you can see there is an actual attempt now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
By the way - the last time this issue came up for a vote, there actually was a MAJORITY of coaches IN FAVOR of a dual meet teamchampionship - so it really is disingenuous to refer to the proponants as "a minority group".

 

A majority of all wrestling coaches, or a majority of those on the NWCA Committee?

 

Yes, a majority of ALL coaches. But the NCAA directed the committee to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new approach - which is how we got to where it is today.

 

Also, no one is stopping the NWCA from having their National Duals. Have them. Crown a Champion. No one is stopping you.

 

Oh, they are doing just that. So why are all the PSU fans crying about it? If Cael doesn't want to go, that's fine, Im not complaining. But why are so many people from PSU complaining that this is happening without them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with the 4,500(give or take) mark for attendance as a fair expectation. That would give them 9,00 total for the event. With Iowa, Penn State and Oklahoma State in attendance I would expect at least 7,000 giving it a total of about 14,000. Those 3 schoolds have arguably the biggest fan following out of any other programs. I saw plenty of Penn State fans at the Scuffle.

 

I'll assume you are correct on the numbers. No way of knowing, but I will assume your guess is good. Is it your contention that these numbers make the sport better?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What were PSU's dual attendance numbers the past decade? Put a good product out and the numbers will increase.

 

You just described what Penn State did. They got a better product, and people came.

 

So if the National Duals got a better product(such as Penn State, Iowa, and Oklahoma State) then people would come. Interesting concept.... If only the NWCA had thought about contacting those schools

 

I'm sure the NWCA thought of that. They had Iowa, Ok State, Minn., and Cornell last year and it didn't generate a ton of interest. I know they'd love to have everyone there, but I am not willing to concede that there is proof this is better for either the sport or each individual member sc hool.

 

It would be great for the NWCA. That I will concede.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, a majority of ALL coaches. But the NCAA directed the committee to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new approach - which is how we got to where it is today.

 

Oh, they are doing just that. So why are all the PSU fans crying about it? If Cael doesn't want to go, that's fine, Im not complaining. But why are so many people from PSU complaining that this is happening without them?

 

Point 1. The NCAA asked for a better proposal? Well, this certainly is NOT tnhat proposal. It is both too long AND the point carryover is patently ridiculous.

 

Point 2. They are complaining because this back door proposal that obviously Cael had nlo idea about until yesterday is a patently blatant strong arm attemt to force them to do something that in their evaluation does not improve either the sport or Penn State.

 

Penn State fans are NOT complaining about the old format of National Duals. They could care less if some other team wins that event.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, a majority of ALL coaches. But the NCAA directed the committee to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new approach - which is how we got to where it is today.

 

Oh, they are doing just that. So why are all the PSU fans crying about it? If Cael doesn't want to go, that's fine, Im not complaining. But why are so many people from PSU complaining that this is happening without them?

 

Point 1. The NCAA asked for a better proposal? Well, this certainly is NOT tnhat proposal. It is both too long AND the point carryover is patently ridiculous.

 

Point 2. They are complaining because this back door proposal that obviously Cael had nlo idea about until yesterday is a patently blatant strong arm attemt to force them to do something that in their evaluation does not improve either the sport or Penn State.

 

Penn State fans are NOT complaining about the old format of National Duals. They could care less if some other team wins that event.

Baloney. His brother was there back in August when this was discussed. If he only heard about this yesterday, then what's he been discussing with his brother the last six months?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Point carry over is just simply ABSURD.

Take Basketball.... UCLA wins the pac 12 tourney....... now at the NCAA tourney they take on St. Mary's who took second in their league tourney........... UCLA starts the game with a 15 point lead...yup a great idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...