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NJwrestlingguy

3 Programs who need to move on

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what Programs would greatly improve with a change and some new blood.

 

1- Tom Minkel Michigan State...Great school with great BB and Football but obviously could care less of Wrestling Program. Get a good coach there and those great fans would support them.

 

2- C.D. Mock North Carolina...Another great school and C.D has done a good job upgrading the facilities but I think UNC would benefit from change at the top. C.D would probably make a very good administrator

 

3- Gary Taylor Rider...Flo did a big thing on him years ago staying too long. And he's still there. John Hangey runs that program and should be their Head Coach.

 

HM. Turnbull-West Virginia, Eiter-Penn

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How can this be considered anything but "BASHING" these guys?

 

Here's hoping you live long enough for some unqualified person to question your livelihood.

 

So coaches are above reproach? Fans of sports have NO right to criticize the performance of teams and the coaches responsibility for said performances? I am sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree with your viewpoint. These guys all make pretty damn good money and are DIRECTLY responsible for putting forth a product that fans have an interest in. If this were not the case they wouldn't CHARGE for people to come to events. As a PAYING fan you ARE 100% QUALIFIED to question their livelihood.

 

In the end what we say means little or quite possibly NOTHING(as is the case of MSU). However, that doesn't mean we SHOULDN'T say anything.

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Do msu wrestlers do well socially and academically?

 

Dan Gable used to tell his wrestlers there were three areas of concentration to enjoy College Life at Iowa.

 

Social, Academics and Wrestling. Then he would say "Pick TWO", because he did not believe any student could give full attention to all three areas. Just not enough time in the day.

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Do msu wrestlers do well socially and academically?

 

That is truly impossible for us to qualify and quantify.

 

 

UofM was able to hide rape charges on one of their football players for FOUR years! There is NO WAY for us to know how well EACH AND EVERY wrestler at a University is doing socially. Academics can be looked at, but I don't exactly remember them having too many Academic AA's either.

 

I will agree with you that there are MANY facets involved in coaching at the DI level. Minkel is actually decent at a couple. The PROBLEM is his OVERALL performance is WOEFULLY bad and no attempts at deflection can truly hide that fact..........

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There is a thin red line here. To just come on to the forums and criticize someone harshly in unprecedented ways is most certainly uncalled for. However to note disappointing performances and be critical of poor results, based on realistic expectations is another.

 

To me, coming on themat.com and reading someone bash the Oklahoma State wrestling program this year is completely asinine. Sure John Smith's Cowboys have seen better days, but to dismiss him as a "poor coach" is ignorant. He's proven himself time in and time out and he'll continue to. Until he has a span of 3-4 years where Oklahoma State doesn't compete for a title, then comments like the one written the other day are uncalled for.

 

On the same hand, I don't believe it's out of line to question Minkle's time at Michigan State. I personally feel some of the personal attacks on Minkle as a person are uncalled for, but the criticism he receives as a coach he's earned. Look, there are 12 teams in the BIG 10 and every year someone has to finish in 12th place. That's just how it is, but to finish in dead last place 5 out of the last 7 years, with another one of those finishes being second to last place, isn't acceptable. It's been 11 years since Michigan State has fielded a decent team in the BIG 10. The 2003 team was the last team that really put up a fight and competed in the conference. Ever since that time, it's been 1 or 2 good wrestlers per team and that's it.

 

I'm not about to put anyone down who has the courage to put on a singlet and walk out on the mat in DI wrestling. If someone gets up everyday, goes to practices and makes the sacrifices necessary to call himself a wrestler, I'm not going to put that person down. However, guys like Brenan Lyon shouldn't be wrestling Division I at a BIG 10 school. There's a reason why we have divisions in wrestling, and I'm sure that if Lyon were wrestling DIII, he'd probably be looking at ending his career on a successful note, rather than looking at ending his senior year with another losing record as he is now.

 

Minkle has had plenty of opportunity to prove himself and get things turned around. He hasn't. My comments on him are strictly based on where he is at as a coach, nothing personal. It's time for him to go and for someone else to take over the program. He had some successful squads as Michigan State but those days are over and done with now. All he's doing now is racking up records for consecutive last place finishes in the BIG 10. A half a handful of NCAA qualifiers, an occasional notable victory for one of his wrestlers (Like McClure over Coon the other day) and maybe 1 AA every few years is the best Spartan fans are going to get out of Minkle.

 

I say thank you for your time, thank you for your services, now go enjoy retirement and let someone else in there that is going to put some spark back into the Spartans.

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Turnbull at wvu should be no lower than number two the program is much worse with as much or more to offer than msu and I would also add their associate head coach to the list needing to go but he will likely take over and continue to have a mediocre program until the school decides they need a new football weight room or something and take over the wrestling room west virginia is painful to look at and would be my top choice for needing a change north carolina would follow with michigan state in third

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I will comment on a couple items. I know one of these coaches mentioned very well and he is very well liked by many of his past/present wrestlers. That said, I don't have a problem with people starting a post like this. JT, I always like your posts. I find you very knowledgeable and you do a lot of research with a lot of what you say. However, you can't say you respect any DI wrestler and then single out a kid by name and say he doesn't belong there, imo.

 

Regarding Turnbull, all I can say is he has a fun school, pretty easy academic standards and you are located in very close to Western Pa and not far from Maryland and NJ. If he has 9.9, ouch!

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I will comment on a couple items. I know one of these coaches mentioned very well and he is very well liked by many of his past/present wrestlers. That said, I don't have a problem with people starting a post like this. JT, I always like your posts. I find you very knowledgeable and you do a lot of research with a lot of what you say. However, you can't say you respect any DI wrestler and then single out a kid by name and say he doesn't belong there, imo.

 

Regarding Turnbull, all I can say is he has a fun school, pretty easy academic standards and you are located in very close to Western Pa and not far from Maryland and NJ. If he has 9.9, ouch!

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that there are kids that would have benefited going DIII or NAIA over going DI. A guy like Lyon would probably already be an AA by now in DIII and possibly be contending for a DIII title. At the end of the day, you work just as hard as a DIII wrestler as you do a DI wrestler. The difference is level of talent and athletic ability. Sure it may hurt a few feelings here and there for me to say that, but we all know that DIII National champions for the most part, are probably equivalent to DI wrestlers that are finishing 7th through R12. Watch matches where DIII wrestlers will take on DI wrestlers. Guys in DI that barely qualify for the NCAA's will beat DIII guys that were All Americans the year before.

 

You can if you want, call it a knock on DIII guys. It's not. It's not at all. It's simply stating that different divisions exist for different reasons. I'd have rather seen Lyon have gone DIII and walked out a two time DIII AA. At the end of the day, he's working hard. You know he is. All DI wrestlers are, and knowing that I'd just as soon have seen him go to a school where he could have walked out with more credentials to match all the work, sacrifice and dedication that he put into it.

 

If that's knocking someone, then that's certainly not my first offense and it won't be my last.

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I actually agree with you but I just hate to single out one kid. There are those who will say why should a college football player be able to be criticized but not a college wrestler. I am of the opinion that these college kids should not be criticized just because they might not be having the success of others. I understand the "thin line" because I really don't have problems with criticizing kids for bad sportsmanship or specific items during their match but I like to stay away from questioning a kid who is competing for any DI sport.

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Turnbull at wvu should be no lower than number two the program is much worse with as much or more to offer than msu and I would also add their associate head coach to the list needing to go but he will likely take over and continue to have a mediocre program until the school decides they need a new football weight room or something and take over the wrestling room west virginia is painful to look at and would be my top choice for needing a change north carolina would follow with michigan state in third

This is the longest sentence EVER in the history of this forum.

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I'm not about to put anyone down who has the courage to put on a singlet and walk out on the mat in DI wrestling. If someone gets up everyday, goes to practices and makes the sacrifices necessary to call himself a wrestler, I'm not going to put that person down. However, guys like Brenan Lyon shouldn't be wrestling Division I at a BIG 10 school. There's a reason why we have divisions in wrestling, and I'm sure that if Lyon were wrestling DIII, he'd probably be looking at ending his career on a successful note, rather than looking at ending his senior year with another losing record as he is now.

 

He is the best guy that they have at the weight. Why would you shift the blame on him for showing up and getting the starting spot? If you feel it is a negative thing that Lyon found his way into the starting linup, that is a recruiting issue, not an issue of a wrestler's ability. Blame the coach who cant recruit, not the wrestler who can make the spot.

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Big 10/Big12:

Should put multiple AA's in the lineup

If not you're killing wrestling

 

Mid Major Conferences:

9.9:

You better put at least 1 AA on the podium, should have at least 2 in contention

Kids better be model citizens

Recruiting needs to be closely evaluated

 

5:

Anything over 1AA is nice, should be putting one up there every year for contention

 

All we do in this country is question livelihoods.

Now some D1 coach with few outs in life is above being questioned for lackluster performance??

If academics and citizenship trump the performance of the program on the whole, kids should be well behaved of course but if that is the best thing you can say about them as a wrestling program, then the Big 10 school is being cheated.

 

I've got nothing against any D1 coaches, but the sport itself can't afford these "lifers" unless they are continuing to develop kids on and off the mat.

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Turnbull at wvu should be no lower than number two the program is much worse with as much or more to offer than msu and I would also add their associate head coach to the list needing to go but he will likely take over and continue to have a mediocre program until the school decides they need a new football weight room or something and take over the wrestling room west virginia is painful to look at and would be my top choice for needing a change north carolina would follow with michigan state in third

This is the longest sentence EVER in the history of this forum.

 

:lol:

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I'm not about to put anyone down who has the courage to put on a singlet and walk out on the mat in DI wrestling. If someone gets up everyday, goes to practices and makes the sacrifices necessary to call himself a wrestler, I'm not going to put that person down. However, guys like Brenan Lyon shouldn't be wrestling Division I at a BIG 10 school. There's a reason why we have divisions in wrestling, and I'm sure that if Lyon were wrestling DIII, he'd probably be looking at ending his career on a successful note, rather than looking at ending his senior year with another losing record as he is now.

 

He is the best guy that they have at the weight. Why would you shift the blame on him for showing up and getting the starting spot? If you feel it is a negative thing that Lyon found his way into the starting linup, that is a recruiting issue, not an issue of a wrestler's ability. Blame the coach who cant recruit, not the wrestler who can make the spot.

 

 

I'm not putting the blame on him. I was saying exactly what you are saying to have said. The deal is that Minkle's recruiting abilities are so low that he has to rely on Lyon because he can't get someone else there. That's not Lyon's fault. It's also probably more so do to a lack of good coaching than it is anything else that Lyon has yet to improve. 3-16 as a freshman, 12-13 as a sophomore, 8-18 as a junior and so far this year as a senior he is 5-11. My admiration for him is that regardless of whether he was DI material or not, he decided he wanted to be a DI wrestler and in spite of a lot of disappointment he has stuck it out and will graduate knowing that he went in that room every day for 5 years day in and day out. My criticism is for the MSU wrestling program because between him and Eric Olanowski, neither should be making the line up at a Division I school in the toughest conference. What I'm saying here is that someone of their level, should never be making the line up because the competition in the room should be too stiff. That's totally a recruiting issue. The fact that Lyon made the lineup, and has yet to get better in any area, technique, strength, ect is totally a coaching issue.

 

Look at John Rizqallah, last year he had quality wins over Phillip Joseph and Ethen Lofthouse and most of his losses were to guys ranked above him. This year he has another win over Joseph, but a lot of his losses are to those he shouldn't be losing too.

 

Mike McClure is the only wrestler on the squad that continuously improves and gets better.

 

I say you could take the same squad, and put in a more motivated, hungry coach and get better results out of them.

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