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BaldwinKnowBest

Penn St/Mich Official...

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Having been present for the dual in Cliff Keen this afternoon, it appeared to me that after being on top of his game in the first three matches, the ref almost completely lost control of the 149 match and didn't recover until Taylor, Ruth and McIntosh systemically and totally without question out performed their opponents. Evidence that his mind/composure still had not recovered, however, was painfully obvious from his inability to stall out whatever was that poor excuse for a PSU wrestler who never took a forward step until the final 20 seconds of the last match. I've DQ'd guys for more offense than that slug! How this pair of refs were chosen for a match of this import is a mystery. Mike Allen should present the old guy assistant a bra for his retirement and send the head back to some clinics.

 

As far as the HWT match, this is commonplace - the majority of NCAA refs do not enforce Rule 5.9.2 when it is right there in front of their faces. Look at the very start of the 1st period in this HWT match. The PSU HWT backs straight out of bounds to a whistle at 2:54. No stall call. Blatant violation of Rule 5.9.2.

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Can anyone explain why the ref stopped the match with 0:48 left in the 3rd? Alton had Grajales on his back and, if not for that stoppage, a lot go this Alton gas tank chatter would have been moot as he would have stayed there till the buzzer.

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I can't believe there are people who actually think the ref was anything but a disgrace. Aside from the literally unbelievable reffing, he was blabbing off so badly and nonchalantly, as if reffing peewee league as opposed to D1 B1G, that the commentators had to make fun of his chattiness to make light of the situation. I don't know what was worse, the ref or Alton's endurance, and that's obviously saying something. No matter which wrestler you were rooting for, the ref was a disaster.

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125- Jordan looked strong and wrestled a great match. It would have been nice if Nico took a RS this year and let JC wrestle at 125.

133- Jimmy looked real good tonight, all around a solid performance against a guy who just beat DiJulious.

141- Zain is not spectacular, but he is just so darn good at every position. Decent showing tonight. I can not see him beating Stieber again, but he beats everyone else.

149- Well I was very sad watching that. I personally have not giving up on Alton, he just hit the wall and fell apart. I do not like how he just turtled up and did nothing though. That was unreal watching. So much more thoughts I have on this, I will probably vent on one of the many Alton threads.

157- I thought Dylan did okay considering he wrestled a really good kid who has been on fire lately. Think about this, Murphy took zero shots the whole match! Alton was in on his leg numerous times but just could not finish. I for one loved that Alton won, cause Murphy did squat the whole match.

165- Taylor looked awesome. Nothing else to say.

174- Brown looked real good too, but man Zeerip looked scared and IMO wrestled the worst of anyone in the whole meet. He just seemed not to try the whole match and just let Brown do anything he wanted.

184- Ruth looked slick and fast hammering the guy who just beat Courts. I would say he had a good day.

197- Okay here is where I will say a negative of a PSU guy. Morgan did not impress me at all, and to be honest, very few matches this year did he. The Iowa one where he beat Brooks I thought he looked awesome though. His opponent had a big time losing record and I thought MM would embarrass this guy, I just thought he struggled. So many times he gets in on guys legs, and he does not finish.

HWT- Who cares? No really it was boring like most heavyweight matches. I have no problem with the stall call, dang Gingrich just kept going out of bounds and did nothing. At least Coon attempted a bit of offense early on.

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I am not convinced that the score was right during the 149 match after the escapetdnonescapenontd :30 debacle which would confuse almost anyone.

I have no idea. All I know is, Eric Grajales was on practically on the other end of the mat from Andrew Alton, and yet Mike Chase would not award the escape. If I was the official, I would have awarded an escape and a concurrent stall call each time.

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No he didn't.

Olson made clear technical errors in the match.

 

This guy's issues were all judgement calls.

He reversed calls when appropriate.

 

Yea, he made a debacle of the situation at 149 but that situation is always difficult to call.

He definitely sucked in that match and should've stopped the 157 match for PD long before Alton had Murphy's knee in that position. Other than that he really did fine.

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I just watched the match again. It was quite wild and confusing in the third period. Having said that, should the assistant ref assist in this situation? What about video replay. Does the ref have discretion to review, or is it only from a coaches challenge?

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Having been present for the dual in Cliff Keen this afternoon, it appeared to me that after being on top of his game in the first three matches, the ref almost completely lost control of the 149 match and didn't recover until Taylor, Ruth and McIntosh systematically and totally without question out performed their opponents. Evidence that his mind/composure still had not recovered, however, was painfully obvious from his inability to stall out whatever was that poor excuse for a PSU wrestler who never took a forward step until the final 20 seconds of the last match. I've DQ'd guys for more offense than that slug! How this pair of refs were chosen for a match of this import is a mystery. Mike Allen should present the old guy assistant a bra for his retirement and send the head back to some clinics.

 

If you think that Coon pushing Gingrich off the mat equated to Gingrich "backing up" then I disagree. Coon is just physically stronger in the position they were in. In freestyle this should matter, but not in folk.

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If the ref wasn't giving AAlton an escape when Grajales was that far away from him with his hands up, stalling should of been called on Alton.

 

Were they facing each other?

 

Gimp,

 

The instances in which Alton was not facing was when he was not awarding an escape, just as the book mandates. When there was facing and separation, he was giving the escape.

 

He could have easily dinged Alton for stalling in those instances though.

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Oh…OOOOHHkay…now I get it --- Looking pathetic, totally outclassed and “manhandled” was a brilliant carefully researched and designed PSU strategy to catch Coon off guard against a “scrub” in the final seconds. It was actually understood all along by the PSU cognoscenti that this feckless officiating duo would NEVER have the temerity to punish for passivity a PSU guy seemingly incapable of taking a forward step until a few (by then, totally unexpected by Coon, who had been lulled into accepting he couldn’t catch an opponent on a bicycle) “believable” shots were attempted in the final seconds of the match. It almost worked. Gee, Coon was so taken off guard, the ref even warned HIM for passivity! Gosh…Amazing…Prescient…Beyond comprehension for mere mortals incapable of recognizing let alone appreciating what only the PSU faithful want to believe.

 

All kidding aside, NO one who witnessed this event could leave without being TOTALLY convinced of the superiority of PSU’s efforts. As evidence, although she had only recently attended her first folkstyle event the previous weekend, France’s current national champion pentathlete, now an EMU track member who was sitting next to me at Cliff Keen, commented frequently during and long after the match, how impressed she was with the quite obvious disparities in abilities demonstrated. Parenthetically, as an elite athlete, she was also very confused and even distraught by the officials’ mishandling (apparent even to her!) of the 149 and 157 matches and with the inconsistency of stalling calls (or lack thereof, especially at 285). The good news from my perspective: Both teams advance their programs, and another dedicated fan is initiated. And the bad: Probably little, if anything, will be accomplished to ameliorate the damage brought by the incompetence of these two officials in future events.

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Having been present for the dual in Cliff Keen this afternoon, it appeared to me that after being on top of his game in the first three matches, the ref almost completely lost control of the 149 match and didn't recover until Taylor, Ruth and McIntosh systematically and totally without question out performed their opponents. Evidence that his mind/composure still had not recovered, however, was painfully obvious from his inability to stall out whatever was that poor excuse for a PSU wrestler who never took a forward step until the final 20 seconds of the last match. I've DQ'd guys for more offense than that slug! How this pair of refs were chosen for a match of this import is a mystery. Mike Allen should present the old guy assistant a bra for his retirement and send the head back to some clinics.

Let me get this straight, you do officiate? While I believe Gingrich was stalling as he retreated I also believe Coon, who was physically dominating the neutral position and doing nothing with that dominance, was as guilty of stalling as Gingrich. I thought it was more than a tad ridiculous that a guy who never touched a leg today, or even tried to touch a leg won a wrestling match on a stall point. Gingrich did shoot several times, it was in the last minute, not the final 20 seconds.

 

Maybe there is a good reason those two were refereeing yesterday's match and not you.

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How about you turn your volume off on your TV if it's really bothering you that bad. Its good for the wrestlers.

 

I don't buy that for one second. These are Div 1 NCAA wrestlers. They know darn well it's not a takedown until they hear "2, green/red takedown".

 

Ok, maybe a little courtesy "still neutral" during a crazy scramble or something, but to keep sreaming "neutral, neutral, neutral" is just drawing attention to himself IMO.

 

Maybe refs can work a little harder to find a middle ground on this issue, but I rather them err on the side of more info.

 

That being said, I think that we need more of the "still green" call when working for an escape/reversal. Why not give the wrestlers a reminder that they can/not lock hands and/or can/not score nearfall still? Delgado just lost a match trying to scramble on bottom only to give up 2NF. He probably took a calculated risk, but at least in HS the more info the better.

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I am not convinced that the score was right during the 149 match after the escapetdnonescapenontd :30 debacle which would confuse almost anyone.

I have no idea. All I know is, Eric Grajales was on practically on the other end of the mat from Andrew Alton, and yet Mike Chase would not award the escape. If I was the official, I would have awarded an escape and a concurrent stall call each time.

 

But if you were the ref, you would never call a standing reversal because you didn't know there was such a thing until AFTER the Dake/Taylor match at last year's scuffle. If I recall, you said JR Johnson should never work again for that outrageous call but he was 100% correct. :)

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Other than keeping 180 degrees on the opposite side of the mat from the main ref, what exactly does the other ref do?

 

Kind of funny Cody Olson is brought up here. He actually had the correct call during the match. A reversal that was too quick, he waved it off, then an escape and then a takedown. He initially had it correct. He didn't get confused until he started talking to his assistant official who was asleep and then proceeded to confuse the living hell out of him.

 

I'll submit in high school, at least my experience has been, the assistant official plays a valuable role and can be of great help. I know, personally, that I have got matches correct due to the help of an assistant. Unfortunately, some of these assistants during these college duals are higher paid towel tapers. I don't need anyone yelling out "1 minute" or "30 seconds" to me; I really don't care. That is why we have towel tappers and buzzers. I need an assistant that is paying attention and if I need to go to him after a scramble to see what he saw, I want have that good discussion.

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Sorry for double posting this, but I missed that there was a thread on just the officiating, and posted my .02 on the main PSU-Michigan thread:

 

OK, I just saw the dual once, but...

 

Since I am usually the first to defend refs on this board from the numerous critics who have never put on the striped shirt, I have to say that I thought the Alton matches were a hot mess. Yes, to someone's point above, they were tough matches with lots of scrambles and with some funky positions, so he does get some slack for that.

 

But, really I think where things started to go off the tracks was the video review. Now, I should say that overall I am a fan of the new video review in college and wish we had it for our high school matches. I especially think it could be a useful tool for the 90% of the time when you are working alone, without an assistant to double-check. But I think when he went off for video review he just lost the thread (I noticed right afterwards he had to check with the table to see who had choice, which is a first indicator of a ref who has been distracted.) I think this is a hidden cost of video review. Again, not saying I would repeal video review but let's recognize that 'getting the call right' is not completely free.

 

I haven't watched the A. Alton match again to comment on specific calls like posters have done above, but c'mon, all he need was a Resilite pillow in the third period to get more rest. Where were the stall calls? I understand not calling the escapes until the bottom man has had a chance to turn and defend himself, but when he fails to do that promptly then he is stalling. Even in high school, where, frankly, I think we don't call enough stalling.

 

And the D. Alton match, well, first off, props to Murphy who I had never seen before but didn't expect much after the BTN buildup of 'freshman vs. all-American', but he wrestled well. I really feel bad for him with his knee injury, which I hope turns out to be not as bad as it looked. I understand it is tough to call these funky positions, and I know college refs let things go a lot longer than high school but when you can't see the joint and they are in some position you don't recognize the prudent thing is to call PD or stalemate -- calling PD after the wrestler screams is not preventive officiating; by then it is simply ITO.

 

So, for you ref critics out there remember that on Groundhog Day 2014 I agreed with you.

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Why exactly was Gingrich wrestling in the first place? He can't go straight back if he's sitting on the sidelines where he belongs. Pretty sweet of Cael to let him have a shot at Coon dog and let Lawson sit this one out. I have to assume Lawson is hurt? Some insider have the info? Surely Cael didn't think it would be entertaining to throw his backup out against one of the best heavyweights in the country, who is more physically dominant, and watch said backup go straight backwards for 6:40? Nobody I know who watched the dual thought this part was entertaining (or the absolutely brilliant Alton performance or the officiating for that matter). Maybe put Lawson out there and we avoid the straight back strategy? Eh...maybe we don't, I don't know. Point is, is Lawson hurt or was that just Cael being funny and using the old backup vs. the stud plan as he is apt to do from time to time?

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