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JohnnyThompsonnum1

Observation about Eric Grajales

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You can't conclude that the NCAA champion at each weight won strictly because he worked harder than the other wrestlers in his weight class. There are a TON of other factors that go into why a person wins or doesn't win an NCAA title. It doesn't ALL boil down to who worked harder than who. Hard work often has A LOT to do with it, but it is not everythingThat is the point I'm making. Where you are drawn in the tournament, upsets of other wrestlers, luck, talent...go on and on and on. There are a lot of reasons why a person wins an NCAA title, and to blatantly ignore all of those reasons and sum it up as, "Worked harder than everyone else" is ignorant.

 

First off, I NEVER said anything of that sort. I simply said talent IS NOT enough. You can have a decent career with some good wins but you have to EMBRACE the outline that is provided to be truly successful.

 

I think you are only seeing part of the argument. Twisting it into something personal and blindly attacking. I don't think ANYONE believes that each AA finish is based SOLELY on a ladder of who worked harder.

 

My argument was that the BEST OF THE BEST did not get there SOLELY on talent. You then attacked that argument by basically saying Ruth did. You did that with NO firsthand knowledge, and truly no knowledge of the inner working of a DI program.

 

There are some outliers who may have sneaked in a high finish on mainly talent but there is NO WAY they did it on a consistent basis. Caldwell and Jenkins are the perfect examples. They had bright moments, which I think were a big result of great preparation. However, they were openly questioned about their career dedication and had some letdowns as a result. They were great but could have managed themselves to be even greater.

 

I told you twice already and now a third time that I don't have a problem with anything that you said. What you said makes sense, is fair and doesn't blatantly ignore a lot of facts. It takes into consideration factors that makes life circumstantial and doesn't generalize everything. It's clear you realize that both success and failure are mixtures of a lot of factors in a lot of different ways. You, once again, are not the person spouting an argument that is not only wrong but just plain insensitive and insulting. It's one thing to disagree on something subjective and you and I do that. It's another thing to completely ignore and dismiss objective points within subjective arguments. We all have our opinions and that's great, but hard working people sometimes fail and lazy people sometimes succeed. Something olddirty can turn a blind eye to, but that part of the argument isn't my opinion, it's a fact.

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If you work as hard as possible prepare yourself the best you can both physically and mentally I think you should feel satisfied with what you accomplished. Am I saying that you will end up winning 100% of the time no but one should be able to sleep well with one's effort.

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How does the saying go, hard work beats talent, if talent doesn't work hard.

 

Says it all, imho.

 

agreed, another one about luck since that was mentioned in a post...

 

"Luck...when preparation meets opportunity."

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If you dont believe that Ed Ruth is working harder than the guys in his weight class, then answer me this question: Throughout their entire career in college, who at the weight sought out world level training partners in the off season? Who was training at the Olympic Training center with world and Olympic medalists in the offseason? Who was actively competing in the offseason against both domestic and international competitors?

 

If you are going to say Ruth doesnt work harder than the guys in his weight, you better have some knowledge that no one else does that points to them doing more than Ruth with better training partners and tougher competition.

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If you dont believe that Ed Ruth is working harder than the guys in his weight class, then answer me this question: Throughout their entire career in college, who at the weight sought out world level training partners in the off season? Who was training at the Olympic Training center with world and Olympic medalists in the offseason? Who was actively competing in the offseason against both domestic and international competitors?

 

If you are going to say Ruth doesnt work harder than the guys in his weight, you better have some knowledge that no one else does that points to them doing more than Ruth with better training partners and tougher competition.

 

So in turn you can answer me back that Ed Ruth is the only 184 pounder in the country that trained with world level training partners in the off season? Ed Ruth is the only 184 pounder in the country that trained at the Olympic training center with World and Olympic medalist? He's the only 184 pounder in the country that trained against both domestic and international competitors? Out of all nearly 80 Division I 184 lbs'ers in the country he's the only one doing these things? You know for a fact that nobody else is?

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So in turn you can answer me back that Ed Ruth is the only 184 pounder in the country that trained with world level training partners in the off season? Ed Ruth is the only 184 pounder in the country that trained at the Olympic training center with World and Olympic medalist? He's the only 184 pounder in the country that trained against both domestic and international competitors? Out of all nearly 80 Division I 184 lbs'ers in the country he's the only one doing these things? You know for a fact that nobody else is?

 

Yes, I can answer that with conviction.

 

There were no other 184's who were training with the level of competition that Ruth was in the offseason.

 

There were no other 184's who were actively competing against higher calibur competition than ruth was in the offseason.

 

There were no other 184's besides Ruth who were at the OTC besides Hamlin and Rizquallah for camps, and they do not have anything near the Nittany Lion club that Ruth has.

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So in turn you can answer me back that Ed Ruth is the only 184 pounder in the country that trained with world level training partners in the off season? Ed Ruth is the only 184 pounder in the country that trained at the Olympic training center with World and Olympic medalist? He's the only 184 pounder in the country that trained against both domestic and international competitors? Out of all nearly 80 Division I 184 lbs'ers in the country he's the only one doing these things? You know for a fact that nobody else is?

 

Yes, I can answer that with conviction.

 

There were no other 184's who were training with the level of competition that Ruth was in the offseason.

 

There were no other 184's who were actively competing against higher calibur competition than ruth was in the offseason.

 

There were no other 184's besides Ruth who were at the OTC besides Hamlin and Rizquallah for camps, and they do not have anything near the Nittany Lion club that Ruth has.

 

So who attends the Nittany-Lion club is totally within Ruth's control? Ed Ruth is in control of who does and who does not attend the Nittany-Lion wrestling club?

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Counter argument: While Ed Ruth does indeed work very hard, is very dedicated and does make a lot of good choices, there are other wrestlers at 184 lbs that work equally as hard (some harder, some not as hard), are equally as dedicated (some more, some not as much) and make as many good choices (some more, some not as much) and the reason why Ruth has more success than they do, is because he has more natural talent and ability than they do.

 

JT1, I'm just curious why you picked Ed Ruth out of all the other champions that were originally listed? For example, Dake, Taylor, and Sanderson were mentioned. Did you not include them for a particular reason?

 

While Ed Ruth does indeed work very hard, is very dedicated and does make a lot of good choices, there are other wrestlers at 184 lbs that work equally as hard (some harder, some not as hard)

 

What makes you say this JT1? I'm really curious. It sounds like you personally know how hard every 184 pounder in D1 works. Have you heard anything that leads you to believe that Ed Ruth isn't the hardest working 184 in college? If not, how do you come to the conclusion that he's a hard worker. but not the hardest worker?

 

I'm honestly curious.

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Counter argument: While Ed Ruth does indeed work very hard, is very dedicated and does make a lot of good choices, there are other wrestlers at 184 lbs that work equally as hard (some harder, some not as hard), are equally as dedicated (some more, some not as much) and make as many good choices (some more, some not as much) and the reason why Ruth has more success than they do, is because he has more natural talent and ability than they do.

 

JT1, I'm just curious why you picked Ed Ruth out of all the other champions that were originally listed? For example, Dake, Taylor, and Sanderson were mentioned. Did you not include them for a particular reason?

 

While Ed Ruth does indeed work very hard, is very dedicated and does make a lot of good choices, there are other wrestlers at 184 lbs that work equally as hard (some harder, some not as hard)

 

What makes you say this JT1? I'm really curious. It sounds like you personally know how hard every 184 pounder in D1 works. Have you heard anything that leads you to believe that Ed Ruth isn't the hardest working 184 in college? If not, how do you come to the conclusion that he's a hard worker. but not the hardest worker?

 

I'm honestly curious.

 

1 - He has another year left and he's still in the game as to where Sanderson and Dake are not. I could've included Taylor as well, but just didn't. I feel the same about Taylor as I do about Ruth.

 

2 - It's not what I have heard about Ruth that makes me say this, it's what I've heard and to an extent know about other wrestlers. Let's say that Olddirty is correct and at the end of the day Ed Ruth actually does work harder than all the other 184 pounders in the country. I'm sorry, but that is circumstantial and it does not prove nor mean that every NCAA champion throughout history (and future) in every single weight class has worked harder than the other wrestlers at the weight class.

 

If you took every single NCAA champion over the history of wrestling, past, present and future and concluded why they won the NCAA title in their given year in their given weight class, it would sometimes be because they worked harder than everyone else in their weight class. However, it wouldn't ALWAYS be because of that. Other factors come into it as well. It may happens sometimes and if Olddirty were to say that and admit that, I'd shutup about it. However, he is claiming that it happens all the time, and it is always the reason. It's not.

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When has anyone in this thread said all NCAA champions worked harder than everyone else?

 

You said Ed Ruth isnt the hardest working 184, and you are talking from 100% pure ignorance. I took offense to that and it has raised the eyebrows of other posters. You disregard his training partners toughness, you disregard his offseason dedication and the toughness of the Nitanny Lion club in the offseason, and you disregard his training and competition in the offseason to compete for the USA at the world championships.

 

Then your expert analysis of why Ruth doesnt work as hard as others is because "he has another year left and is still in the game." Great answer champ, considering every other 184 is also still in the game, and doesnt put themselves in the NCAA or offseason tranining opportunities that Ruth chooses to utilize.

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When has anyone in this thread said all NCAA champions worked harder than everyone else?

 

You said Ed Ruth isnt the hardest working 184, and you are talking from 100% pure ignorance. I took offense to that and it has raised the eyebrows of other posters. You disregard his training partners toughness, you disregard his offseason dedication and the toughness of the Nitanny Lion club in the offseason, and you disregard his training and competition in the offseason to compete for the USA at the world championships.

 

Then your expert analysis of why Ruth doesnt work as hard as others is because "he has another year left and is still in the game." Great answer champ, considering every other 184 is also still in the game, and doesnt put themselves in the NCAA or offseason tranining opportunities that Ruth chooses to utilize.

 

You disregard his training partners toughness - Is that within Ed Ruth's control? Can Ed Ruth control the toughness of his training partners? Is that something, that is within the ability of Ed Ruth to regulate?

 

you disregard his offseason dedication - I do? I thought what I was doing was NOT disregarding other wrestlers offseason dedication. Actually that IS what I was doing.

 

the toughness of the Nitanny Lion club - Ed Ruth causes this? Ed Ruth is the reason that the Nittanylion wrestling cub is as tough as what it is? He's the reason why some of the best wrestlers have chosen to train there? He controls that?

 

 

Then your expert analysis of why Ruth doesnt work as hard as others is because "he has another year left and is still in the game." - Actually my answer there was to the question, "Why didn't you include Dake, Sanderson and Taylor?" You are connecting a different question with a different answer, either because you are stupid or because you're trying to make it look like I said something that I didn't.

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You disregard his training partners toughness - Is that within Ed Ruth's control? Can Ed Ruth control the toughness of his training partners? Is that something, that is within the ability of Ed Ruth to regulate? you disregard his offseason dedication - I do? I thought what I was doing was NOT disregarding other wrestlers offseason dedication. Actually that IS what I was doing. the toughness of the Nitanny Lion club - Ed Ruth causes this? Ed Ruth is the reason that the Nittanylion wrestling cub is as tough as what it is? He's the reason why some of the best wrestlers have chosen to train there? He controls that?Then your expert analysis of why Ruth doesnt work as hard as others is because "he has another year left and is still in the game." - Actually my answer there was to the question, "Why didn't you include Dake, Sanderson and Taylor?" You are connecting a different question with a different answer, either because you are stupid or because you're trying to make it look like I said something that I didn't.

 

It doesnt matter if it is in his control or not. The facts are that he has the toughest workout partners in the NCAA season and offseason. Thats what makes him tough. Life isnt fair lil' sport. And nothing is stopped Loder, Sheptock, or anyone else from wrestling for Penn State, training with Nittany Lion, or putting in the time in the summer at the OTC.

 

When has anyone in this thread said all NCAA champions worked harder than everyone else?

 

Oh and for the record....you did.

 

Then quote me in your next message where I said that. If you cannot, then either issue an apolgy to myself and Mr. Ruth, or admit that you once again are talking out of your a$$. My guess is that you will tuck tail again and disregard the fact that I never said that once in this thread. Balls in your court champ.

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You disregard his training partners toughness - Is that within Ed Ruth's control? Can Ed Ruth control the toughness of his training partners? Is that something, that is within the ability of Ed Ruth to regulate? you disregard his offseason dedication - I do? I thought what I was doing was NOT disregarding other wrestlers offseason dedication. Actually that IS what I was doing. the toughness of the Nitanny Lion club - Ed Ruth causes this? Ed Ruth is the reason that the Nittanylion wrestling cub is as tough as what it is? He's the reason why some of the best wrestlers have chosen to train there? He controls that?Then your expert analysis of why Ruth doesnt work as hard as others is because "he has another year left and is still in the game." - Actually my answer there was to the question, "Why didn't you include Dake, Sanderson and Taylor?" You are connecting a different question with a different answer, either because you are stupid or because you're trying to make it look like I said something that I didn't.

 

It doesnt matter if it is in his control or not. The facts are that he has the toughest workout partners in the NCAA season and offseason. Thats what makes him tough. Life isnt fair lil' sport. And nothing is stopped Loder, Sheptock, or anyone else from wrestling for Penn State, training with Nittany Lion, or putting in the time in the summer at the OTC.

 

When has anyone in this thread said all NCAA champions worked harder than everyone else?

 

Oh and for the record....you did.

 

Then quote me in your next message where I said that. If you cannot, then either issue an apolgy to myself and Mr. Ruth, or admit that you once again are talking out of your a$$. My guess is that you will tuck tail again and disregard the fact that I never said that once in this thread. Balls in your court champ.

 

It doesnt matter if it is in his control or not. - It doesn't? A person's work ethic is entirely controlled 100% by them. When you evaluate an individual's worth ethic, you are evaluating things that are in their control. A person's worth ethic is entirely based on them. How hard they go, how much time they spend, how dedicated they are, what they do with the resources available to them....that is all controlled.

 

 

Life isnt fair You have absolutely no business saying that to me. You're the one that preaches, "the formula ALWAYS works" If that were true, wouldn't that make life fair? What makes life unfair is that sometimes the formula doesn't work. Something you don't seem to be able to comprehend.

 

And nothing is stopped Loder, Sheptock, or anyone else from wrestling for Penn State, training with Nittany Lion Alright fine, let's take your little scenario and put it into play. What if Ryan Loder, Jimmy Sheptock and Ethen Lofthouse were all doing the things that Ed Ruth was doing. Let's say that all four wrestlers, competed at Penn State, wrestled in the Nittany Lion club and at the OTC. They all put in the same amount of time and effort, working with the same workout partners. At the end of the day, all four of them can't be winners. One is going to walk away the winner and the other three aren't. Whether it be Ruth, Lofthouse, Loder or Sheptock that wins, then would you finally admit that other elements go into winning and losing? Then would you see that talent, natural ability and athleticism among many other factors also goes into winning a wrestling match? Or would you still somehow determine that the reason one won over the other three was strictly because he "worked harder" ?

 

putting in the time in the summer at the OTC. Then why didn't Sam Hazewinkle win an NCAA title? No offense to Jason Powell (camp counselor of mine at camp one year, love the guy), Joe Dubuque (Great attitude. Great wrestler, great coach-Princeton is on the rise because of him and great person) or Paul Donahue (don't know him), but Hazewinkle wrestled a hell of a lot more freestyle and Greco-Roman during the off-season than any of them did. How about Nick Simmons? He spent an adequate amount of time at the OTC and he never won an NCAA title. Both Hazewinkle and Simmons got in a ton of competition and trained with superb training partners all year round and neither won an NCAA title. According to your formula, which according to you never fails, they should have both won multiple titles.

 

then either issue an apolgy to myself - What for? For pointing out all of the holes in your argument? For showing how your rhetoric was flawed? For not allowing you to give unwarranted criticism towards those who didn't deserve it by telling them that they "didn't work hard enough" when they did work hard enough, but other reasons contributed to why they didn't succeed? Get real. I'm not apologizing for that. A good coach would ask nothing more out of his athlete than for his athlete to give him 100% commitment and 100% effort. If his athlete did that, then that's all he'd ask of him.

 

then either issue an apolgy to Mr. Ruth - What for? Because someone said his work ethic and dedication were greater than everyone else's at 184 lbs, and I said that no they weren't? Just because I refuse to dismiss others work ethics and dedications, doesn't mean that I don't also realize that Ed Ruth works his tail off and is disciplined too. He may very well be more dedicated and have a better work ethic than a lot of 184 lbs'ers. I just find it hard to believe that it is every single one of them. I should apologize for calling Ed Ruth a tremendous athlete with phenomenal talent? And furthermore I should apologize because I believe his phenomenal talent helps him to win? No, sorry, I'm not apologizing for that. I am a fan of Ed Ruth's and I feel that we are extremely lucky to have him in the sport of wrestling. He could have been a star in football, baseball, basketball or any other sport that he chose. He's just that good of an athlete. I say that while he works hard, very hard, his winning is not 100% contributed to his hard work (working harder than everyone else) and that other factors come into play. That's the actuality of it.

 

 

As far as quoting you, your entire argument has been that the reason why Ed Ruth wins or why someone else doesn't is based solely upon work ethic. I point out that you are wrong about that. I'm talking out my @$$? Ha.

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Johnny I think you are one of those guys that likes to read what he writes kinda of like the guy that likes to listen to themselves talk. You act as if you are the only one with some kind of special insight from your observations? Your long posts in this thread are all the same time to just let it go you are not going to change your thoughts and neither is olddirty. This thread is DEAD no longer about original topic I won't be back here.

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Another clown thread heavily involving JT1, shocking.

 

I think JT1 is still seeking the answer (excuse) on why he didn't qualify for the state wrestling tournament when he thinks back to his glory days.

 

I think we should seek DF's thoughts on this topic, get his input, and call it a day.

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Hardwork isnt the only thing that determines head to head match ups. Neither is genetics. Strategy can overcome genetics. Confidence can overcome genetics. Technique can overcome genetics. Even good old fashioned conditioning can overcome genetics. Using head to head matchup wins to determine the level of hard work of a wrestler is ignorant and uses very little logic.

 

When has anyone in this thread said all NCAA champions worked harder than everyone else?

 

Oh and for the record....you did.

 

As far as quoting you, your entire argument has been that the reason why Ed Ruth wins or why someone else doesn't is based solely upon work ethic. I point out that you are wrong about that. I'm talking out my @$$? Ha.

 

Im still waiting for you to either quote me or apologize. You gonna keep d*ck tucking, champ?

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