Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Zelph

The best 2X NCAA champ?

Recommended Posts

The point is you're giving old era wrestlers a boost for winning their two titles in 3 years instead of 4. However, the year they missed is their freshman year, which in all likelihood (although not necessarily) would have been their worst year. If wrestlers skill level remained consistent throughout the four years then you could certainly give a boost to those who missed out on their freshman year. However, this is almost never the case. Wrestlers grow and improve.

 

Therefore rather than penalizing those who wrestled at NCAA's their freshman season and fell short, the only fair thing to do when comparing old era vs new era wrestlers is to compare their final three years.

 

 

Well, you do have a point. It's probably better to separate the 4 year and 3 year varsity wrestlers. With that said, I believe most of the "3 year" guys I mentioned had better records than DT over their final 3 years. I'm not sure how many of them are getting a boost over Taylor. Keller, Sanders (3 year guy who wrestled as a freshman), Gable, Dibattista, Kemp, Mcilravy, and Abas all had better records over their final 3 years than Taylor. I don't see how he goes over any of those two and 3 timers I mentioned.

 

If we're talking about boosts, I say that Taylor is getting a boost over many guys for not having to wrestle as a true freshman. I have seen his 3 loss ncaa record mentioned many times. It's as if his true freshman year, where he was 3rd string, is forgotten.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The point is you're giving old era wrestlers a boost for winning their two titles in 3 years instead of 4. However, the year they missed is their freshman year, which in all likelihood (although not necessarily) would have been their worst year. If wrestlers skill level remained consistent throughout the four years then you could certainly give a boost to those who missed out on their freshman year. However, this is almost never the case. Wrestlers grow and improve.

 

Therefore rather than penalizing those who wrestled at NCAA's their freshman season and fell short, the only fair thing to do when comparing old era vs new era wrestlers is to compare their final three years.

 

 

Well, you do have a point. It's probably better to separate the 4 year and 3 year varsity wrestlers. With that said, I believe most of the "3 year" guys I mentioned had better records than DT over their final 3 years. I'm not sure how many of them are getting a boost over Taylor. Keller, Sanders (3 year guy who wrestled as a freshman), Gable, Dibattista, Kemp, Mcilravy, and Abas all had better records over their final 3 years than Taylor. I don't see how he goes over any of those two and 3 timers I mentioned.

 

If we're talking about boosts, I say that Taylor is getting a boost over many guys for not having to wrestle as a true freshman. I have seen his 3 loss ncaa record mentioned many times. It's as if his true freshman year, where he was 3rd string, is forgotten.

The true freshman thing is a valid point and worth taking into consideration. Although, I will say that I highly doubt Taylor goes 157 if he had been forced to wrestle that year. He had wrestled 135 without cutting any weight the year before and I think his only concern at that point was seeing how big and strong (fat and happy) he could get.

 

Comparing Taylor's final three years to Lincoln Mcilravy's (I know he's not a two timer, but you brought him up), they are very similar. Both very dominant. Both beat every opponent put in front of them except for one guy their junior year. However, their is a difference between losing to Senior Dake and losing to Steve Marianetti. If McIlravy had been paired against a miniaturized Dake, I'd be willing to bet he'd fall short in that match. Yet if Taylor was matched up with an enlarged Steve Marianetti, I'd be absolutely stunned if he lost.

 

Now I'm not saying Taylor is the best two-timer ever. I think it's simply two hard to compare over eras. What I am saying is that he is certainly in the discussion, and that his losses against Dake don't really do all that much to hurt his legacy compared to other two timers. They certainly do a lot two hurt legacy when comparing him to the entire pantheon since they prevent him from being a three timer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love Jaggers but am shocked people brought him up. I would never rank him ahead of Randleman, Rowlands or Stieber...all of whom are Buckeye 2x champs. Randleman might deserve some consideration. He finished 2,1,1 and then didn't compete as a senior. His skill level was amazing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I do know is that Taylor had the far superior overall career and that Freshman, sophomore, and junior Taylor were each better than freshman, sophomore, and junior Burroughs (perhaps arguable on the junior part, but I don't think so).

 

BigRedMachine, you think that Taylor's junior year with 3 losses (2 officially) and a 2nd place finish is better than JB's undefeated national championship season?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What I do know is that Taylor had the far superior overall career and that Freshman, sophomore, and junior Taylor were each better than freshman, sophomore, and junior Burroughs (perhaps arguable on the junior part, but I don't think so).

 

BigRedMachine, you think that Taylor's junior year with 3 losses (2 officially) and a 2nd place finish is better than JB's undefeated national championship season?

I think he was the better wrestler. Obviously he didn't have the better season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What I do know is that Taylor had the far superior overall career and that Freshman, sophomore, and junior Taylor were each better than freshman, sophomore, and junior Burroughs (perhaps arguable on the junior part, but I don't think so).

 

BigRedMachine, you think that Taylor's junior year with 3 losses (2 officially) and a 2nd place finish is better than JB's undefeated national championship season?

I think he was the better wrestler. Obviously he didn't have the better season.

 

JB's junior year he beat both Leen and Poeta at nationals so we will have to agree to disagree on that point

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What I do know is that Taylor had the far superior overall career and that Freshman, sophomore, and junior Taylor were each better than freshman, sophomore, and junior Burroughs (perhaps arguable on the junior part, but I don't think so).

 

BigRedMachine, you think that Taylor's junior year with 3 losses (2 officially) and a 2nd place finish is better than JB's undefeated national championship season?

I think he was the better wrestler. Obviously he didn't have the better season.

 

JB's junior year he beat both Leen and Poeta at nationals so we will have to agree to disagree on that point

Poeta beat Leen at nationals, but Burroughs did edge out Leen earlier in the season. Emphasis being on edge, it was a very competitive match. The more important question is, do you think Junior Taylor would have lost to Poeta and Leen? If not, then the fact that Burroughs beat them doesn't really prove anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There's quite a few 2xers. Someone should make a list of the best 2xer at each weight.

 

According to http://d1collegewrestling.net/index.html these are all the 2x National Champs

 

2x NCAA Champions

 

Tony Nelson (Minnesota) 2012-13

 

Quentin Wright (Penn State) 2011, 2013

 

Ed Ruth (Penn State) 2012-13

 

Jordan Oliver (Oklahoma State) 2011, 2013

 

Logan Stieber (Ohio State) 2012-13

 

Matt McDonough (Iowa) 2010, 2012

 

Kellen Russell (Michigan) 2011-12

 

Jordan Burroughs (Nebraska) 2009, 2011

 

Brent Metcalf (Iowa) 2008, 2010

 

Jake Varner (Iowa State) 2009-2010

 

J Jaggers (Ohio State) 2008-2009

 

Jake Herbert (Northwestern) 2007, 2009

 

Mark Perry (Iowa) 2007-2008

 

Matt Valenti (Pennsylvania) 2006-2007

 

Ben Askren (Missouri) 2006-2007

 

Cole Konrad (Minnesota) 2006-2007

 

Joe Dubuque (Indiana) 2005-2006

 

Johny Hendricks (Oklahoma State) 2005-2006

 

Travis Lee (Cornell) 2003, 2005

 

Teyon Ware (Oklahoma) 2003, 2005

 

Ryan Bertin (Michigan) 2003, 2005

 

Chris Pendleton (Oklahoma State) 2004-2005

 

Steve Mocco (Oklahoma State) 2003, 2005

 

Damion Hahn (Minnesota) 2003-2004

 

Tommy Rowlands (Ohio State) 2002, 2004

 

Johnny Thompson (Oklahoma State) 2002-2003

 

Eric Juergens (Iowa) 2000-2001

 

TJ Williams (Iowa) 1999, 2001

 

Donny Pritzlaff (Wisconsin) 2000-2001

 

Tim Hartung (Minnesota) 1998-1999

 

Stephen Neal (Cal-State Bakersfield) 1998-1999

 

Mark Ironside (Iowa) 1997-1998

 

Jeff McGinness (Iowa) 1995, 1998

 

Cary Kolat (Lock Haven) 1996-1997

 

Mark Branch (Oklahoma State) 1994, 1997

 

Kerry McCoy (Penn State) 1994, 1997

 

Les Gutches (Oregon State) 1995-1996

 

Markus Mollica (Arizona State) 1993, 1995

 

Sammie Henson (Clemson) 1993-1994

 

Kevin Randleman (Ohio State) 1992-1993

 

Jeff Prescott (Penn State) 1991-1992

 

Terry Brands (Iowa) 1990, 1992

 

Matt DeMaray (Wisconsin) 1991-1992

 

Kurt Angle (Clarion) 1990, 1992

 

Dan St. John (Arizona State) 1989-1990

 

Chris Barnes (Oklahoma State) 1989-1990

 

Jack Cuvo (East Stroudsburg) 1988-1989

 

Pat Santoro (Pittsburgh) 1988-1989

 

Tim Krieger (Iowa State) 1987, 1989

 

Eric Voelker (Iowa State) 1987, 1989

 

John Smith (Oklahoma State) 1987-1988

 

Royce Alger (Iowa) 1987-1988

 

Jim Jordan (Wisconsin) 1985-1986

 

Marty Kistler (Iowa State) 1985-1986

 

Melvin Douglas (Oklahoma) 1985-1986

 

Mike Sheets (Oklahoma State) 1983-1984

 

Darryl Burley (Lehigh) 1979, 1983

 

Lou Banach (Iowa) 1981, 1983

 

Dan Cuestas (Cal-State Bakersfield) 1981-1982

 

Andre Metzger (Oklahoma) 1981-1982

 

Gene Mills (Syracuse) 1979, 1981

 

Rick Stewart (Oklahoma State) 1980-1981

 

Randy Lewis (Iowa) 1979-1980

 

Dan Hicks (Oregon State) 1978-1979

 

Mark Lieberman (Lehigh) 1978-1979

 

Rod Kilgore (Oklahoma) 1974, 1977

 

Chris Campbell (Iowa) 1976-1977

 

Mike Frick (Lehigh) 1975-1976

 

Chuck Yagla (Iowa) 1975-1976

 

Pat Milkovich (Michigan State) 1972, 1974

 

Jarrett Hubbard (Michigan) 1973-1974

 

Greg Strobel (Oregon State) 1973-1974

 

Wade Schalles (Clarion) 1972-1973

 

Chris Taylor (Iowa State) 1972-1973

 

Carl Adams (Iowa State) 1971-1972

 

Andy Matter (Penn State) 1971-1972

 

Ben Peterson (Iowa State) 1971-1972

 

Darrell Keller (Oklahoma State) 1970-1971

 

Geoff Baum (Oklahoma State) 1970-1971

 

Dwayne Keller (Oklahoma State) 1968, 1970

 

Mike Grant (Oklahoma) 1969-1970

 

Jason Smith (Iowa State) 1969-1970

 

Chuck Jean (Iowa State) 1969-1970

 

Jess Lewis (Oregon State) 1969-1970

 

David McGuire (Oklahoma) 1967, 1969

 

Dan Gable (Iowa State) 1968-1969

 

Dale Anderson (Michigan State) 1967-1968

 

Dave Porter (Michigan) 1966, 1968

 

Greg Ruth (Oklahoma) 1965-1966

 

Tom Peckham (Iowa State) 1965-1966

 

Jim Nance (Syracuse) 1963, 1965

 

Dean Lahr (Colorado) 1963-1964

 

Mickey Martin (Oklahoma) 1962-1963

 

Mike Natvig (Army) 1962-1963

 

Bob Johnson (Oklahoma State) 1961-1962

 

Dale Lewis (Oklahoma) 1960-1961

 

Stan Abel (Oklahoma) 1959-1960

 

Les Anderson (Iowa State) 1958, 1960

 

Ron Gray (Iowa State) 1958-1959

 

Dick Beattie (Oklahoma State) 1958-1959

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Comparing Taylor's final three years to Lincoln Mcilravy's (I know he's not a two timer, but you brought him up), they are very similar. Both very dominant. Both beat every opponent put in front of them except for one guy their junior year. However, their is a difference between losing to Senior Dake and losing to Steve Marianetti. If McIlravy had been paired against a miniaturized Dake, I'd be willing to bet he'd fall short in that match. Yet if Taylor was matched up with an enlarged Steve Marianetti, I'd be absolutely stunned if he lost.

 

Mcilravy is a 4 year varsity guy, so I don't see a reason to compare only their final 3 years. And Taylor got a lot bigger after his senior year in HS. His true freshman year, he was a good sized 157 pounder. I'm not sure what the purpose of mentioning him possibly cutting to 149 has to do with what I said. He wrestled 157 that year and was third string. That's what actually happened.

 

I disagree with a lot of what you said about Taylor's losses to Dake not hurting his legacy in comparison to others. Let me dig up my post about that..

 

Oh, most were absolutely stunned when Mcilravy lost to Marianetti. It was a big upset. He was the 2 time defending champion coming off an undefeated season, and he had only 2 career losses as a true freshman at the time. Are you saying that a Taylor loss to Marianetti would be more shocking than Mcilravy's?

 

 

.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Come on guys, are we just going to list every 2x NCAA champ here or are we going to list the best? Pretty damn hard to put Johnny Thomson or Jaggers in the same breath as Burroughs and Smith. I mean, lets be real here about the question. Anyone can look up the 2x champs. Tim Krieger was better than John Smith huh?

 

I never said Krieger was better than Smith...I just thought a guy that went 116-3-2 deserved to have his name in the discussion...especially when everyone in a discussion about 2x'ers can't stop talking about a guy with 3 losses and who is not even a 2x'er yet (Taylor).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Comparing Taylor's final three years to Lincoln Mcilravy's (I know he's not a two timer, but you brought him up), they are very similar. Both very dominant. Both beat every opponent put in front of them except for one guy their junior year. However, their is a difference between losing to Senior Dake and losing to Steve Marianetti. If McIlravy had been paired against a miniaturized Dake, I'd be willing to bet he'd fall short in that match. Yet if Taylor was matched up with an enlarged Steve Marianetti, I'd be absolutely stunned if he lost.

 

Mcilravy is a 4 year varsity guy, so I don't see a reason to compare only their final 3 years. And Taylor got a lot bigger after his senior year in HS. His true freshman year, he was a good sized 157 pounder. I'm not sure what the purpose of mentioning him possibly cutting to 149 has to do with what I said. He wrestled 157 that year and was third string. That's what actually happened.

 

I disagree with a lot of what you said about Taylor's losses to Dake not hurting his legacy in comparison to others. Let me dig up my post about that.

 

Oh, most were absolutely stunned when Mcilravy lost to Marianetti. It was a big upset. He was the 2 time defending champion coming off an undefeated season, and he had only 2 career losses as a true freshman at the time. Are you saying that a Taylor loss to Marianetti would be more shocking than Mcilravy's?

 

 

.

mcilravy was on your list... You brought him up and made the initial comparison about their final three years.

 

For some it would be more shocking to see Taylor lose to a Marianetti. For others, they would be more shocked seeing mcilravy lose to Marianetti. The fact is, mcilravy DID lose to Marianetti, where as Taylor hasn't. It's really not all that relavant how shocking it was because, like it or not, the loss happend. If Taylor loses to Caldwell or Sulzer, then I will happily concede mcilravy had the superior final three years. The same goes for Gable and his loss to Owings or any number of the people you listed.

 

And no Taylor was not third string as a freshman, he was a redshirt. There is a difference. It's extremely relavant that he could have made 149 because his behavior was motivated by the fact that he was redshirting that year. This is microeconomics 101, people respond to incentives and the incentives for a redshirt are vastly different from the incentives for somebody who's going to be burning a year of eligibility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For some it would be more shocking to see Taylor lose to a Marianetti. For others, they would be more shocked seeing mcilravy lose to Marianetti. The fact is, mcilravy DID lose to Marianetti, where as Taylor hasn't. It's really not all that relavant how shocking it was because, like it or not, the loss happend. If Taylor loses to Caldwell or Sulzer, then I will happily concede mcilravy had the superior final three years. The same goes for Gable and his loss to Owings or any number of the people you listed.

 

Yes, Mcilravy did lose to Marianetti. And David Taylor DID lose to Bubba Jenkins, where as Mcilravy didn't David Taylor DID lose to Kyle Dake, whereas Mcilravy didn't. I don't see the point in stating the obvious.

 

And how did a guy like Gable not have a superior 3 year to Taylor? Also, Gable was undefeated his freshman year. He won the Midlands in a bracket the included a former ncaa champion and some all americans. That's superior to Taylor.

 

The only reason I brought up the final 3 years is because you mentioned it earlier. That's besides the point though. Mcilravy had a better 4 year run than DT. A run that included winning as a true freshman.

 

And no Taylor was not third string as a freshman, he was a redshirt. There is a difference
.

 

What's the difference? He wrestled at 157 that year and could not defeat the two other 157 pound wrestlers on the team.

 

It's extremely relavant that he could have made 149 because his behavior was motivated by the fact that he was redshirting that year. This is microeconomics 101, people respond to incentives and the incentives for a redshirt are vastly different from the incentives for somebody who's going to be burning a year of eligibility.

 

How do you know that Taylor could have made 149 that year? How do you know that he could beat Frank Molinaro out for the spot? That's all speculation. David Taylor did wrestle 157 as a freshman and he couldn't beat 2 wrestlers ahead of him. That's extremely relevant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Comparing Taylor's final three years to Lincoln Mcilravy's (I know he's not a two timer, but you brought him up), they are very similar. Both very dominant. Both beat every opponent put in front of them except for one guy their junior year. However, their is a difference between losing to Senior Dake and losing to Steve Marianetti. If McIlravy had been paired against a miniaturized Dake, I'd be willing to bet he'd fall short in that match. Yet if Taylor was matched up with an enlarged Steve Marianetti, I'd be absolutely stunned if he lost.

 

Mcilravy is a 4 year varsity guy, so I don't see a reason to compare only their final 3 years. And Taylor got a lot bigger after his senior year in HS. His true freshman year, he was a good sized 157 pounder. I'm not sure what the purpose of mentioning him possibly cutting to 149 has to do with what I said. He wrestled 157 that year and was third string. That's what actually happened.

 

I disagree with a lot of what you said about Taylor's losses to Dake not hurting his legacy in comparison to others. Let me dig up my post about that.

 

Oh, most were absolutely stunned when Mcilravy lost to Marianetti. It was a big upset. He was the 2 time defending champion coming off an undefeated season, and he had only 2 career losses as a true freshman at the time. Are you saying that a Taylor loss to Marianetti would be more shocking than Mcilravy's?

 

 

.

 

McIlravy was a 3 timer, not a 2 timer. He had 12 career falls. Taylor had 14 just last year. Marienetti was a very good wrestler, but nobody would put him in a class with Kyle Dake. Losing to Marienetti, and giving up 13 pts in the process, is a much bigger flag than losing to a 4x NCAA champ by a point...who is, unarguably, among the Top 2-3 collegiate wrestlers ever.

 

Yes, this is a very subjective process. It is also very objective. Look at Wins & Losses, who those losses were to and how dominant the wrestler was, especially at the NCAA tournament. Someone brought up Herbert, who is among my favorites. The Askren loss is his kryptonite, because he pretty much destroyed everyone else his final 3 years. Jake was very confident in his scrambling abilities and thought he could hang with Askren.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The problem with looking at losses is, obviously, different guys wrestle different competition. Askren only lost to two guys. If Taylor would have wrestled Dake as many times as Askren wrestled Pendleton who is to say Taylor doesn't have 7 losses? But he didn't. Askren is being punished for seeing a junior/senior Pendleton, when he was a freshman/sophomore, so many times. I'm just saying there are a lot ins and outs to look at here. Nothing is going to line up dead on for two different guys. In my opinion, Burroughs was better (obviously NCAA finishes Taylor's are better, but Burroughs took 3rd in one of the toughest weights ever, to me that is more impressive than tooling Hackett but I don't expect everyone to agree) and Askren was better. A few others were better. I thought I was being kind conceding Taylor above Jake Varner. Nobody coming to Varner's defense?? Poor Varner, he didn't get to PSU early enough to get the automatic argument/defense.

 

Actually, Askren only lost to Pendleton, that's it.

 

Askren also lost to Ryan Lange of Purdue during his freshman season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
McIlravy was a 3 timer, not a 2 timer. He had 12 career falls. Taylor had 14 just last year. Marienetti was a very good wrestler, but nobody would put him in a class with Kyle Dake. Losing to Marienetti, and giving up 13 pts in the process, is a much bigger flag than losing to a 4x NCAA champ by a point...who is, unarguably, among the Top 2-3 collegiate wrestlers ever.

 

I know that Mcilravy was a 3 timer. I knew that he had only 12 career falls. I brought him up as example earlier to show how bonus points/pins aren't the "end all be", and definitely not the only way to consider "dominance". For example, I don't think that Taylor was a more "dominant" wrestler than Mcilravy. I don't grant your last point. I'm in the process of fetching my old post that explains why.

 

Yes, this is a very subjective process. It is also very objective. Look at Wins & Losses, who those losses were to and how dominant the wrestler was, especially at the NCAA tournament. Someone brought up Herbert, who is among my favorites. The Askren loss is his kryptonite, because he pretty much destroyed everyone else his final 3 years. Jake was very confident in his scrambling abilities and thought he could hang with Askren.

 

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, that's very important.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

super old what are you talking about?

 

He REDSHIRTED that year.

 

Which you already know so what is your angle in pretending he was “third string”. You aren’t in the line up as a redshirt.

 

And if dominance isn’t about majors, techs, pins and win/loss record then the word has lost any meaning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
super old what are you talking about?

 

He REDSHIRTED that year.

 

Which you already know so what is your angle in pretending he was “third string”. You aren’t in the line up as a redshirt.

 

And if dominance isn’t about majors, techs, pins and win/loss record then the word has lost any meaning.

 

He more than likely redshirted for 2 reasons.

1) to develop

2) he wasn't good enough to make the team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
super old what are you talking about?

 

He REDSHIRTED that year.

 

Which you already know so what is your angle in pretending he was “third string”. You aren’t in the line up as a redshirt.

 

And if dominance isn’t about majors, techs, pins and win/loss record then the word has lost any meaning.

 

Superold lives in some other dimension where words like "dominance" have some other meaning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
super old what are you talking about?

 

He REDSHIRTED that year.

 

Which you already know so what is your angle in pretending he was “third string”. You aren’t in the line up as a redshirt.

 

And if dominance isn’t about majors, techs, pins and win/loss record then the word has lost any meaning.

 

Yes Husky, he redshirted. But it's not as if the redshirt was the only thing holding him back from being the starter. There were two other 157 pounders in the room that could, and did, beat him. He couldn't beat the two guys ahead of him, so he was definitely 3rd string in that sense. And I believe that's very meaningful.

 

Husky, I did say that dominance is about Win/Loss record. I believe that's where it starts, see my previous posts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...